Intel Planning a Return to HEDT with "Alder Lake-X"?

[defaultluser]

Without any e-core, its going to be just as disappointing as the smaller Alder Lake chip.

Also, they will have to compete with 16-core Zen 4 consumer cores by the time this breaks ground!

 

[TechLurker]

I'm hoping that between Intel's desire to return to the HEDT market, and with AMD's eventual reset to DDR5/PCIe 5.0, that AMD will restart a more future-proofed Threadripper linage that doesn't need a motherboard revision each time. Decouple it some from the EPYC development phase and align a bit more with the Ryzen development phase, using lessons learned to refine EPYC. Start from high-clocking 8 or 16c TRs at the base end all the way up to 128c TRs. And if the economics plays out, maybe some "gaming TRs" with a beefier iGPU and 3D Cache for some powerhouse mATX builds or even some NUC-like embedded versions.

 

[James7787]

Intel 12th gen line ruined HEDT for me. If one doesn't care about having more than 20 pcie lanes and 2TB RAM limit why get AMD Threadripper 5975WX for like close to 5000$ when ~800$ Intel Meteor Lake i9 is releasing next year will have more cores and better MT score. Single thread difference will be massive.

 

[Denver]

Intel 12th gen line ruined HEDT for me. If one doesn't care about having more than 20 pcie lanes and 2TB RAM limit why get AMD Threadripper 5975WX for like close to 5000$ when ~800$ Intel Meteor Lake i9 is releasing next year will have more cores and better MT score. Single thread difference will be massive.

For the simple fact that next year will always launch something better?

 

[kapone32]

Intel 12th gen line ruined HEDT for me. If one doesn't care about having more than 20 pcie lanes and 2TB RAM limit why get AMD Threadripper 5975WX for like close to 5000$ when ~800$ Intel Meteor Lake i9 is releasing next year will have more cores and better MT score. Single thread difference will be massive.

I could say the same thing about AMD offerings next year.

 

[Honda_tpu]

I'm ready! Just keep it below 1K for the CPU.

1k is good. 16P cores all 5.2ghz and above.

Lets Go!

 

[mechtech]

code name Prescott 2??

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Performance over power/heat for me. Got a good loop so bring it on.

 

[efikkan]

I hope they for once don't split the market into two HEDT/workstation platforms.

Yeah, we're getting to that point where enthusiast PSUs have 3-phase AC wiring.

It's not bad-ass enough until we get a fat three-phase 400V plug

 

[Aquinus]

Intel needs to jump on the chiplet bandwagon.

 

[ir_cow]

Nice to see at least someone understands the E cores

I laughed because its sad and true. The amount of people confused of the E-cores purpose is astounding.

 

[SRB151]

I'm hoping that between Intel's desire to return to the HEDT market, and with AMD's eventual reset to DDR5/PCIe 5.0, that AMD will restart a more future-proofed Threadripper linage that doesn't need a motherboard revision each time. Decouple it some from the EPYC development phase and align a bit more with the Ryzen development phase, using lessons learned to refine EPYC. Start from high-clocking 8 or 16c TRs at the base end all the way up to 128c TRs. And if the economics plays out, maybe some "gaming TRs" with a beefier iGPU and 3D Cache for some powerhouse mATX builds or even some NUC-like embedded versions.

Here's a thought, probably just wishful thinking, but AMD did say at the time that the TRX40 socket was long term. There are plenty of spare pins on the socket. Nothing to stop them from making a new PCI-e 5.0, DDR5 chip on the existing socket with Zen 4. Even more on the wish list? How about making the memory controller able to handle
DDR4/DDR5 like Alder Lake. Latest Threadripper that would work with new boards as well as the old ones.
I doubt it would happen, but technically, it doesn't seem that hard to do.

 

[R-T-B]

Yeah, we're getting to that point where enthusiast PSUs have 3-phase AC wiring.

Why? 20 amp wiring is pretty common even stateside.

I laughed because its sad and true. The amount of people confused of the E-cores purpose is astounding.

I'm not a total fan of the idea but I do get their goal, at least.

 

[lexluthermiester]

AMD didn't make HEDT processors using Zen 3, only workstation processors (Threadripper Pro).

That was a mistake for them. AMD should have made a special effort to cater to the HEDT market. They kinda got half-way with the 5900x/5950x. But with only dual channel RAM optimal performance was not possible. Intel coming back to the HEDT market after it's brief absence is a good thing.

 

[efikkan]

That was a mistake for them. AMD should have made a special effort to cater to the HEDT market. They kinda got half-way with the 5900x/5950x. But with only dual channel RAM optimal performance was not possible. Intel coming back to the HEDT market after it's brief absence is a good thing.

They certainly "should have", especially with no good counterpart from Intel, they could have dominated this marked for a couple of years. And they could have, if they started the lineup with 12 cores (or even 8 cores). But by starting the lineup at 24 cores, the Zen 3 yields became an issue.

For many "power users" it's not the high core count that's the most appealing with HEDT/workstation platforms, it's more to do with IO. With 2-4 M.2 SSDs, a 10G NIC, a capture card or other special equipment PCIe lanes quickly becomes an issue. And of course lot's of memory bandwidth.

 

[Tek-Check]

The question is whether a common household circuit, which is running other things inside a room usually, lights, maybe a fan or window AC, will be able to hand increased power demands in the future. It's funny, technology and environmental experts have documented a phenomenon called "Rebound Effect" and its where increased efficiencies in technology are NOT met with lower power usage, but increased power usage and it literally occurs in every segment of the economy and industry, and I suppose now it's rearing its head in the PC space..... Rebound effect is held up as a sterling example of why technology can't solve the environmental crisis.

True, but only for x86 systems. Now that Nuvia, Apple and several other vendors experiment with and embrace ARM architecture in laptops, desktops and servers, it's going to be interesting to see how Intel and AMD respond to this once ARM cores reach some parity in price/value/performance.

AMD should have made a special effort to cater to the HEDT market. They kinda got half-way with the 5900x/5950x. But with only dual channel RAM optimal performance was not possible. Intel coming back to the HEDT market after it's brief absence is a good thing.

Special effort? You already have multiple SKUs of Threadripper 3000 with quad-channel memory that already cater for HEDT and workstation markets on TRX40 platform. True, CPUs are Zen 2 at the moment, but still, performant and working well. Intel has not offered here anything for years, hence their new annoucement, which is good, I agree.

There are multiple reasons why quad-channel Zen 3 TR have not seen the daylight, from wafer/packaging/capacity contraints during the pandemic and contractual obligations to deliver silicon for server, desktop, laptop and console clients, all the way to diminishing need to upgrade HEDT space with this generation of silicon. Zen 2 TR with quad-channel on TRX40 platform still looks good enough and can wait a bit longer for an upgrade. AMD needed to decide on priorities during the pandemic and Intel directly abandoned the HEDT space due to not being able to compete with Threadripper with any good offer. Both companies made right decisions at that period of time.

They certainly "should have", especially with no good counterpart from Intel, they could have dominated this marked for a couple of years. And they could have, if they started the lineup with 12 cores (or even 8 cores). But by starting the lineup at 24 cores, the Zen 3 yields became an issue.

AMD has been and is dominating both HEDT (4 channel, for simplicity) and workstation (8 channel) market right now, with multiple TR SKUs. Core count is always a decision to make and it's never perfect. It does not need to be. It's questionable how much need there has been for more diverse SKUs for HEDT in recent years, somewhere in-between 16-core 5950X on X570 and 24-core Threadripper on TRX40 platforms. Desktop platforms became much faster and broader with the use of PCIe 4.0 and the gap between some X570 and TRX40 platforms is essentially 36 CPU PCIe 4.0 lanes, another 2 memory channels and 8 more cores. It's hard to slot anything meaningful between those two, but this might change with Zen 4.

If there was a pressing need, HEDT (or pre-workstation, if you wish) market would have been addressed by Zen 3. They could have offered two or three Zen 3 TR SKUs with 4 memory channels, but as I explained above, there were other market priorities during the pandemic. Delivering 40 million APUs for the console and laptop spaces has been far more important than a few thousand HEDT chips for enthusiasts. They still released TR PRO for workstation segment. You need to cut somewhere when there was an unprescedented silicon demand in recent 18 months.

For many "power users" it's not the high core count that's the most appealing with HEDT/workstation platforms, it's more to do with IO. With 2-4 M.2 SSDs, a 10G NIC, a capture card or other special equipment PCIe lanes quickly becomes an issue. And of course lot's of memory bandwidth.

It's more complex than that. Let's take some rough differences between platforms:
1. X570 desktop 2 channels, 24 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes (16 PCIe 5.0 on Z690), 3-5 NVMe, 6-8 SATA, 10 GbE LAN on halo boards, 3-4 PCIe slots
2. TRX40 HEDT - 4 channels, 64 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes, 3-5 NVMe, 6-8 SATA, 10 GbE LAN on high-end, 4-5 PCIe slots and 16 chipset PCIe 4.0
3. WRX8 workst. - 8 channels, 128 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes, 3-5 NVMe, 6-8 SATA, 10 GbE LAN, 6-7 PCIe slots, 16 chipset PCIe 4.0
4. EPYC server - 8 channels, 128 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes, many NVMe, x number SATA, dual/more 10 GbE LAN, 8/more PCIe slots, etc.

Platforms 1 and 2 are getting similar in several ways; 3 and 4 are also getting similar.

I/O is more capable on recent desktop platforms and closing the gap to HEDT platforms. Zen 4 will bring even more powerful I/O, extra four PCIe lanes from CPU, more PCIe on the chipset and PCIe 5.0 on halo designs. So, almost HEDT, right? You will only be missing extra memory bandwidth, as PCIe 5.0 lanes can be easily split by using PLX chips and adding more PCIe slots.

We moved to PCIe 4.0 in 2019 and are slowly moving towards PCIe 5.0; plenty of lanes to work with. Many high quality desktop boards on Z690 and X570 already have 4-5 NVMe drives, 10 GbE Aquantia LAN chips and several PCIe slots for different cards and needs. There are also Supermicro client boards with PLX switch chips. MSI offers X570 Godlike which is almost HEDT. On the HEDT side, TRX40 Designare from Gigabyte offers a bit more: four PCIe slots, 4 NVMe, two LAN ports for Teaming and 8 RAM slots.

For "power users", you have options 1 and 2; high quality desktop boards are getting similar to Threadripper boards, minus RAM slots and PCIe lanes. You either go with high-end desktop on 5950X or real HEDT TRX40 with TR. Zen 4 will make those options even more similar, apart from memory channels.

Intel can certainly bring some revival and more competition in this space, as they know that AMD has not released Zen 3 HEDT with quad-channel memory. But Zen 4 is around the corner, pandemic is more under control, less lockdowns, constraints and all..., so Zen 4 Threadripper could be in AMD's portfolio of potential releases next year.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Special effort? You already have multiple SKUs of Threadripper 3000

Yes, but those are ZEN2 based. AMD has not released any ZEN3 based TR models. Quite irritating.

There are multiple reasons why quad-channel Zen 3 TR have not seen the daylight, from wafer/packaging/capacity contraints during the pandemic and contractual obligations to deliver silicon for server, desktop, laptop and console clients

No one cares for excuses. The demand for HEDT platforms exists and both Intel and AMD have dropped the ball. It's absence is unacceptable.

all the way to diminishing need to upgrade HEDT space with this generation of silicon. Zen 2 TR with quad-channel on TRX40 platform still looks good enough and can wait a bit longer for an upgrade.

Nonsense. ZEN3 is a big step up from ZEN2 where HEDT would be concerned.

 

[Tek-Check]

No one cares for excuses. The demand for HEDT platforms exists and both Intel and AMD have dropped the ball. It's absence is unacceptable.

Rubbish comment. You are not interested in trying to understand what happened and why, but you are interested in blasting an unfair judgement.

Firstly, Intel has not been present in the segment. Secondly, AMD has been present and has also released Zen 3 TR PRO. It is geared towards workstations, so HEDT on steroids. It works on WRX8 platform which is a more muscular version of TRX4. You cannot put both vendors into the same basket here just because AMD has not updated one single line of products. Silly.

ZEN3 is a big step up from ZEN2 where HEDT would be concerned.

Customers can now order Zen 3 TR PRO from EOMs. There are 5 SKUs. If not, they can buy Zen 2 TR. If not, they can wait until Zen 4 or see what Intel releases under code name "Alder Lake-X" or go for older Xeons (not recommended). Simple.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Rubbish comment.

Irony.

You are not interested in trying to understand what happened and why, but you are interested in blasting an unfair judgement.

I fully understand what happened and why. I don't care. AMD and Intel needed to choose better. They didn't. That lack of foresight and poor decision making is on THEM.

Firstly, Intel has not been present in the segment.

Incorrect. The 1366/2011/2066 sockets are exactly for HEDT. Intel has been present in the HEDT market sector since they created it with the Pentium Pro CPU. Your lack of understanding is glaringly obvious.

Secondly, ...and has also released Zen 3 TR PRO.

TR Pro models were released just last month after having been absent from the HEDT space for two nearly years and more than a year after ZEN3 release. That is unacceptable.

You cannot put both vendors into the same basket here just because AMD has not updated one single line of products.

Oh yes we can. They both can be criticized on equal levels for same lack of market segment support.

Silly.

Opinion.

Customers can now order Zen 3 TR PRO from EOMs.

Yes, and they've been able to do that for one month(as of the date of this post).

Simple.

Are you done picking nits?

 

[Tek-Check]

I fully understand what happened and why. I don't care. AMD and Intel needed to choose better. They didn't. That lack of foresight and poor decision making is on THEM.

They both can be criticized on equal levels for same lack of market segment support.

If you do not care, that's a different matter, which further reduces the credibility of your argument.

Again, you cannot criticize them on equal foot for HEDT segment, no matter how hard you try. You know very well when was the last time Intel supported anything HEDT, since you know the numbers of sockets. It's a different and distant universe from the one AMD has been serving with Threadripper series and TRX4/WRX8 platforms. You compare them as if they both neglected the HEDT or workstation market in equal manner. Completely silly. Get a grip, be honest about how the current market looks like and make sure you are clear about which company has been more innovative and supportive of HEDT in recent 4-5 years. Only then we can have an accurate exchange of thoughts.

Everyone who has been following the industry knows very well that Intel abandoned this segment for several years. It's a no brainer.

Intel’s next-gen HEDT platform reportedly coming in Q3 2022 - KitGuru

It has been a while since Intel launched new HEDT CPUs and according to reports this week, we will b

www.kitguru.net

The 1366/2011/2066 sockets are exactly for HEDT. Intel has been present in the HEDT market sector since they created it with the Pentium Pro CPU. Your lack of understanding is glaringly obvious

Before you hurl another ill-conceived judgement, read my posts and follow-ups more coherently, so that you do not quote a single sentence out of the original context. Or, at least, ask me a question to confirm your suspition before brandishing judgement.

If you had read my original post #41 above, you would have noticed that I said that Intel had not offered anything new for years in HEDT segment. It was in this spirit that I continued with saying that they have not been present in the segment, i.e. with no significant releases for several years since Cascade Lake-X. You do not need to mention Pentium pro. It's enough if you follow the original narrative carefully.

TR Pro models were released just last month after having been absent from the HEDT space for two nearly years and more than a year after ZEN3 release. That is unacceptable.

Unacceptable for who? I agree that the release has been delayed. Nevertheless, they released those Zen 3 SKUs and they did it when they could, despite all challenges in the pandemic world. The glass is either half-empty or half-full. You chose to see it as half-empty, but you can always change the perspective if you choose not to be stubborn. Focus of what matters now. You can now order the most advanced workstation x86 CPUs ever, in 5 SKUs, or you can continue to complain about it and split hair in half.

Are you done picking nits?

Just be accurate in how you present information and do not mix up cats with dogs. They are both mammalian, true, but different species. ;-)

 

[lexluthermiester]

If you do not care, that's a different matter, which further reduces the credibility of your argument.

No, it doesn't, it means that I do not accept those reasons as valid business choices. It means that I criticize those choices.

Again, you cannot criticize them on equal foot for HEDT segment, no matter how hard you try.

Absolutely I can. Both have been absent from the HEDT sector and for much the same reasons. Both companies are equally at fault and equally to blame.

Only then we can have an accurate exchange of thoughts.

I've no interest in an "exchange of thoughts" with you. You're attempting(and failing woefully) to explain to me why I'm wrong. I am explaining to you why your position is without merit and validity.

Everyone who has been following the industry knows very well that Intel abandoned this segment for several years. It's a no brainer.

I'm not, nor have I been arguing against that point as it is glaringly obvious. If you think I have, you either have not been paying attention or have a reading comprehension problem. In either case, the problem rests with you.

Before you hurl another ill-conceived judgement, read my posts and follow-ups more coherently

Kettle, meet pot. You are not debating with cohesive logic. You are attacking me directly with points you are trying(and failing) to make seem reasonable.

Unacceptable for who?

Anyone interested in HEDT computing? The fact that you needed to ask that question speaks volumes.

Just be accurate in how you present information and do not mix up cats with dogs. They are both mammalian, true, but different species. ;-)

Interesting attempt at 1upmanship. A failure to be sure, but interesting.

We're done. I'm so very glad we have an ignore button. Click!

 

[efikkan]

AMD has been and is dominating both HEDT (4 channel, for simplicity) and workstation (8 channel) market right now, with multiple TR SKUs. Core count is always a decision to make and it's never perfect. It does not need to be. It's questionable how much need there has been for more diverse SKUs for HEDT in recent years, somewhere in-between 16-core 5950X on X570 and 24-core Threadripper on TRX40 platforms. Desktop platforms became much faster and broader with the use of PCIe 4.0 and the gap between some X570 and TRX40 platforms is essentially 36 CPU PCIe 4.0 lanes, another 2 memory channels and 8 more cores. It's hard to slot anything meaningful between those two, but this might change with Zen 4.

Right now, there is a huge gap in the market, forcing many "semi-pro"/professional buyers to make a compromise between faster cores vs. more IO, memory bandwidth and potentially more cores. HEDT used to be appealing because it offered the best of both.

It's more complex than that. Let's take some rough differences between platforms:
1. X570 desktop 2 channels, 24 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes (16 PCIe 5.0 on Z690), 3-5 NVMe, 6-8 SATA, 10 GbE LAN on halo boards, 3-4 PCIe slots
2. TRX40 HEDT - 4 channels, 64 PCIe 4.0 CPU lanes, 3-5 NVMe, 6-8 SATA, 10 GbE LAN on high-end, 4-5 PCIe slots and 16 chipset PCIe 4.0

Platforms 1 and 2 are getting similar in several ways; 3 and 4 are also getting similar.

I/O is more capable on recent desktop platforms and closing the gap to HEDT platforms. Zen 4 will bring even more powerful I/O, extra four PCIe lanes from CPU, more PCIe on the chipset and PCIe 5.0 on halo designs. So, almost HEDT, right? You will only be missing extra memory bandwidth, as PCIe 5.0 lanes can be easily split by using PLX chips and adding more PCIe slots.

X570 has 20 CPU PCIe lanes + 4 PCIe lanes for all chipset features. That's plenty for most gaming setups and the majority of buyers in here, but suboptimal for pro/semi-pro users.
An optimal development setup would consist of 8-12 cores and 2-3 SSDs, with fast cores for optimal productivity.
Similarly, many content creators would prefer a more responsive workstation over 24+ cores (24+ cores are mostly useful for big batch jobs, those who have those usually have a dedicated server for that), and quite often want 2+ SSDs and special cards for capture etc.

 

[Tek-Check]

Right now, there is a huge gap in the market, forcing many "semi-pro"/professional buyers to make a compromise between faster cores vs. more IO, memory bandwidth and potentially more cores. HEDT used to be appealing because it offered the best of both.

True. Let's hope Sapphire Rapids and Zen 4 bring more diverse solutions for HEDT.

An optimal development setup would consist of 8-12 cores and 2-3 SSDs, with fast cores for optimal productivity.

Could any Zen 3 or Alder Lake high-end system meet the requirements here?

many content creators would prefer a more responsive workstation over 24+ cores (24+ cores are mostly useful for big batch jobs, those who have those usually have a dedicated server for that), and quite often want 2+ SSDs and special cards for capture etc.

Would new Threadripper Pro 5000 SKUs work well with those workloads? For example, Asus has released Pro WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WiFi board with plenty of PCIe x16 slots, a lot of memory, dual 10 Gbe LAN, 10 and 20 Gbps USB, three NVMe 4.0 drives, remote management, etc. Is there anything else content creators might need?

Pro WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI｜Motherboards｜ASUS USA

ASUS Workstation motherboards are designed for professionals in AI training, deep learning, animation, or 3D rendering. Featuring expandable graphics, storage, impressive connectivity and reliability, Pro Workstation motherboards are the ideal solution for creative professionals and IT...

www.asus.com

 

[Matrices4]

Bring it on, Intel! I've been looking for an upgrade from X299 & LGA-2066 for years! I have a good watercooling loop with 1260 mm of radiators (1 280 mm GTR, 1 140 mm GTX, & 2 420 mm GTS), with 9 Noctua 3000 RPM IPPC fans; plus, a MORA3 420 PRO (420 mm × 420 mm area or 1260 mm total length) with 9 Noctua 3000 RPM IPPC fans. The combined cooling capacity of all these radiators at only 1,800 RPM out of 3,000 RPM, I can cool at least 2.5 kW with only a 10° C delta between ambient and the coolant inside the loop--i.e. 250+ W of cooling capacity with for every 1°C delta between ambient and loop.

 

[efikkan]

Could any Zen 3 or Alder Lake high-end system meet the requirements here?

Not currently, no.
But AMD could have easily made TRX40 versions of 5800X/5900X, instead of planning the platform to start at 24 cores.

Would new Threadripper Pro 5000 SKUs work well with those workloads? For example, Asus has released Pro WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WiFi board with plenty of PCIe x16 slots, a lot of memory, dual 10 Gbe LAN, 10 and 20 Gbps USB, three NVMe 4.0 drives, remote management, etc. Is there anything else content creators might need?

Pro WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI｜Motherboards｜ASUS USA

ASUS Workstation motherboards are designed for professionals in AI training, deep learning, animation, or 3D rendering. Featuring expandable graphics, storage, impressive connectivity and reliability, Pro Workstation motherboards are the ideal solution for creative professionals and IT...

www.asus.com

Yes, this is getting very close to what I'm talking about, and would have been great if it launched to non-OEMs 1.5 years ago. Now with Alder Lake on the market it's too little too late.