Valve Antitrust Class-Action Lawsuit Allowed to Proceed

[Vayra86]

I keep quoting what's in the complaint, which refers to the same linked policy.
Please note: 1) The "Steam-Key-enabled games" wording, and 2) The cited policy and link at the footnote.

View attachment 247023

I honestly don't know of any policy that prohibits selling a game on EGS or GOG at different pricing, nor do I see one being cited to in this text. Care to point us at one?

Any game distributed through Steam. Ergo, that humble deal needs to pop up somewhere in time on Steam Store too. That's rather strange though isn't it, when you're already forking a cut to Steam for distribution to begin with? When you consider humble bundle is a charity fund deal? Or any other myriad of reasons that would want you to promote your product somewhere.

The relevance though as I tried to explain earlier, is questionable. Steam-key-enabled or not, this is about market access and the freedom to determine your own price as a product owner. The distributor has no say in this, its ridiculous, because it only serves to further their own market share at the expense of customers that are already paying for a service.

 

[Shihab]

OP's post, the 1st post:
"The Key Price Parity Provision is a policy that prohibits game developers from pricing their games cheaper on competing storefronts such as the Epic Games Store even if they offer lower fees"

EGS DOESN'T SELL STEAM KEYS.

The OP is mistaken on this part. And you have the policy for yourself to check out. If you still insist of the existence of an other policy that state otherwise, I again repeat my sincere request for some directions to where one could read it.

And while we're at it, the quoted "note" from the judge is actually just citation of the plaintiff, not a proven fact. The entire paragraph reads:

Defendant allegedly enforces this regime through a combination of written and unwritten rules. (Id. at 58–64.) According to the SAC, Defendant relies on provisions within Steamworks Documentation to impose conditions on how non-Steam-enabled games are sold and priced. (Id. at 8, 58–61.) Defendant also threatens game publishers with punitive action, including removal of their Steam-enabled games, if they sell non-Steam-enabled versions of those games at lower prices. For example, a Steam account manager informed Plaintiff Wolfire that “it would delist any games available for sale at a lower price elsewhere, whether or not using Steam keys.” (Id. at 64 (emphasis added).) And if the SAC is to be believed, this experience is not unique to Wolfire. (See id. at 63.)

Bolded emphasis are mine.
Just found the text for the ruling and skimped through it.

cc. @Uskompuf . I think it's better to lead with the fact that those are accusations from the plaintiff to avoid misunderstanding.

Any game distributed through Steam. Ergo, that humble deal needs to pop up somewhere in time on Steam Store too. That's rather strange though isn't it, when you're already forking a cut to Steam for distribution to begin with? When you consider humble bundle is a charity fund deal? Or any other myriad of reasons that would want you to promote your product somewhere.

Steam keys sold through humble bundle don't "fork a cut to Steam" by virtue of being issued at no cost. Only games sold through Steam do.

The relevance though as I tried to explain earlier, is questionable. Steam-key-enabled or not, this is about market access and the freedom to determine your own price as a product owner. The distributor has no say in this, its ridiculous, because it only serves to further their own market share at the expense of customers that are already paying for a service.

No one here contests that non-Steam hosted games should be priced at whatever its dev's wishes. Every post I've written thus far have been strictly about games that are Steam hosted or enabled or whatever, to which I say no, so long as devs don't pay explicitly for the costs of servicing and hosting of their games separately, for each key issued (a scenario that requires said decoupling of store and platform), Valve has every right to ensure it doesn't lost purchases to off-Steam keys, for which, again, it covers all the costs but gains zero revenue.

I apologise if I've parroted myself too much on this thread, but I have to repeat: It's very well to talk about separating Steam the store from Steam the platform and giving (and defending) the developers the ability of choosing one not the other, but as things stand, developers demanding the right to price freely issued Steam keys at their whim is just idiotic entitlement.

 

[Bomby569]

The OP is mistaken on this part. And you have the policy for yourself to check out. If you still insist of the existence of an other policy that state otherwise, I again repeat my sincere request for some directions to where one could read it.

what do you mean the OP is wrong?
there's two sources he posted for what he wrote, and that quotes the judge rulling (that i also quoted and you ignored, but it was an edit so i guess maybe after i wrote idk) saying exactly what you insist in denying

The judge noted that Valve "relies on provisions within Steamworks Documentation to impose conditions on how non-Steam-enabled games are sold and priced." and that "Valve also threatens game publishers with punitive action, including removal of their Steam-enabled games, if they sell non-Steam-enabled versions of those games at lower prices,"

the OP sources in case you missed them

Valve Loses Bid to End Antitrust Case Over Steam Gaming Platform

Valve Corp. must face antitrust litigation over claims that “most favored nation” policies for its Steam distribution platform have driven up video game prices across the industry, a federal judge in Seattle ruled.

news.bloomberglaw.com

Wolfire Games LLC v. Valve Corp., No. C21-0563-JCC | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Wolfire Games LLC v. Valve Corp., No. C21-0563-JCC, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

"... For example, a Steam account manager informed Plaintiff Wolfire that “it would delist any games available for sale at a lower price elsewhere, whether or not using Steam keys..."

Ok the judge is referring to Steam enabled games, not Steam Keys directly. Its implying they are not the same, in this reference, even tho the product is.

It was said that if it was requested of Steam to create Keys for distribution, Steam is requesting they not be sold below what is currently priced on Steam. The lawsuit is about letting the developer sell those keys to activate their game on steam, but if Steam becomes award of such sales, it gives them permission, real or otherwise, to punish offending developers.

/my2copper

 

[Shihab]

what do you mean the OP is wrong?
there's two sources he posted for what he wrote, and that quotes the judge rulling (that i also quoted and you ignored, but it was an edit so i guess maybe after i wrote idk) saying exactly what you insist in denying

The judge noted that Valve "relies on provisions within Steamworks Documentation to impose conditions on how non-Steam-enabled games are sold and priced." and that "Valve also threatens game publishers with punitive action, including removal of their Steam-enabled games, if they sell non-Steam-enabled versions of those games at lower prices,"

the OP sources in case you missed them

Valve Loses Bid to End Antitrust Case Over Steam Gaming Platform

Valve Corp. must face antitrust litigation over claims that “most favored nation” policies for its Steam distribution platform have driven up video game prices across the industry, a federal judge in Seattle ruled.

news.bloomberglaw.com

Wolfire Games LLC v. Valve Corp., No. C21-0563-JCC | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Wolfire Games LLC v. Valve Corp., No. C21-0563-JCC, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

Yes, I did miss the edit. Sorry. Slow writer and my ISP isn't helping. :|

Still, I did address the part regarding the judge's notice in the previous test. They are not facts, those are accusations recited from the complaint and are yet to be proven. The ruling doc you've linked seems to be the same I did. The second quote n my previous post comes directly from it, do check the parts I've bolded. This ruling neither proves nor admits truthfulness of any of these allegations, it merely does that Wolfire can put them to (on?) trial. Whether these claims are true or not is up to the jury later. Or you can use undeniable facts (e.g. the actual texts of the policies-in-question) and judge for yourself.

 

[Bomby569]

Yes, I did miss the edit. Sorry. Slow writer and my ISP isn't helping. :|

Still, I did address the part regarding the judge's notice in the previous test. They are not facts, those are accusations recited from the complaint and are yet to be proven. The ruling doc you've linked seems to be the same I did. The second quote n my previous post comes directly from it, do check the parts I've bolded. This ruling neither proves nor admits truthfulness of any of these allegations, it merely does that Wolfire can put them to (on?) trial. Whether these claims are true or not is up to the jury later. Or you can use undeniable facts (e.g. the actual texts of the policies-in-question) and judge for yourself.

There is some merit to the action (that's what the judge wrote) or it wouldn't be going to trial, that's the all point of the OP's post.
As to the rest i guess we have to wait for a rulling, that's how trials work, sure, i can't disagree with that obviusly.

 

[Vayra86]

The OP is mistaken on this part. And you have the policy for yourself to check out. If you still insist of the existence of an other policy that state otherwise, I again repeat my sincere request for some directions to where one could read it.

And while we're at it, the quoted "note" from the judge is actually just citation of the plaintiff, not a proven fact. The entire paragraph reads:

Bolded emphasis are mine.
Just found the text for the ruling and skimped through it.

cc. @Uskompuf . I think it's better to lead with the fact that those are accusations from the plaintiff to avoid misunderstanding.


Steam keys sold through humble bundle don't "fork a cut to Steam" by virtue of being issued at no cost. Only games sold through Steam do.


No one here contests that non-Steam hosted games should be priced at whatever its dev's wishes. Every post I've written thus far have been strictly about games that are Steam hosted or enabled or whatever, to which I say no, so long as devs don't pay explicitly for the costs of servicing and hosting of their games separately, for each key issued (a scenario that requires said decoupling of store and platform), Valve has every right to ensure it doesn't lost purchases to off-Steam keys, for which, again, it covers all the costs but gains zero revenue.

I apologise if I've parroted myself too much on this thread, but I have to repeat: It's very well to talk about separating Steam the store from Steam the platform and giving (and defending) the developers the ability of choosing one not the other, but as things stand, developers demanding the right to price freely issued Steam keys at their whim is just idiotic entitlement.

Sure, can agree on that, I think the overarching point though here is restoring the overall power balance between developers and distributors. That is essentially the battle here, whether it is called freebie, steam key or fruit shaped lunch boxes isnt that important.

Heck that power balance is the whole reason EGS could thrive as it did, and publishers signed not for those bags of money but for long term strategy. Breaking up this distribution market is a vital next step in the evolution of gaming.

 

[Bomby569]

Sure, can agree on that, I think the overarching point though here is restoring the overall power balance between developers and distributors. That is essentially the battle here, whether it is called freebie, steam key or fruit shaped lunch boxes isnt that important.

Heck that power balance is the whole reason EGS could thrive as it did, and publishers signed not for those bags of money but for long term strategy. Breaking up this distribution market is a vital next step in the evolution of gaming.

Even if EGS wins a place at the table is still a virtual duopoly (GOG is but a small player incapable of disrupting anything). We need a real market functioning in our benefit not this. But i guess people can't look past "the Steam store as all my games and friends".

 

[big_glasses]

I'm seeing a bit of BS/opinions there

the "30%" isn't profit

point 20 (p6) claims sales are required to sell games
Factorio had over 3.1m sold as per Feb2022. This without sale, and even having a price increase in 2018... which by the way is indie...

21: Failed effort.
well, doesn't help that that effort has been utter shite. MS/xbox store is shit, EA one is almost ok (but that took time), amazon have one?

22:
I know some indie dev's love steam... for what it have given in ease of networking (MP) and other tools (inb4 that is steamworks)

love how they mention Epic as PC saviour, while the same company tried to dump PC gaming

subtitle 2(?) includes opinions, put forward as facts/evidence

The distribution and platform market is extremely intertwined at this point (and was from the beginning imo). and the cost of the usage of both is in one (ie platform&distribution cost is included in the cut)

90: is complete lie, you don't need to input personal information to create a steam account. an email account is necessary, no more.

95: not that I doubt this, steam(/valve) def analyze the data, but it looks like hearsay

108: lmao, that's 8y of development. it was so shite when it first released. and it's almost ok now (used it like 3 months ago, and things could certainly have been smoother)

---
can't be arsed to read more, will be curious how this goes. imo sounds like epic is payrolling the suit
---
an additon: Escape from Tarkov have (allegedly) over 2mil players, and have had 200k concurently (2020 it seems to be)
IF it was on steam, that would've put it very nicely on 6th place of concurrent players... this is an indie game, with it's own launcher and own store front

 

[zlobby]

I like how this thread turned to an episode of 'The Good Wife'!

 

[PapaTaipei]

This is directed by Epic. They went full on aggressive and tried to attack Valve with massive amounts of free games to try and destroy it, all the while making massive deficits, thanks to banksters who gave negative % loans to them.

 

[ilyon]

In the EU, legislation is underway to create more equal opportunity on the digital markets, and it will happen, and it will find itself copied by other Western countries and likely a few more.

Agreed with everything else but this.

Private joke, don't you ?

I'm still trying to remember a digital "thing" created by EU that was not a pain in the ass for european tech and nothing but a small annoyance for big US tech (I don't speak of chinese tech, US did the job to stop them and EU followed).

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

This is directed by Epic. They went full on aggressive and tried to attack Valve with massive amounts of free games to try and destroy it, all the while making massive deficits, thanks to banksters who gave negative % loans to them.

That is not the intent at all. EGS's free games are, well, mostly crap. You wont see a AAA game, not a current one atleast, Far CRY 3 is the closest it came to a AAA game, and its quite a few years old. EGS is not trying to destroy Steam, it cant do it alone. GOG has a better chance at competing with Steam than EGS does.

 

[Fatalfury]

That is not the intent at all. EGS's free games are, well, mostly crap. You wont see a AAA game, not a current one atleast, Far CRY 3 is the closest it came to a AAA game, and its quite a few years old. EGS is not trying to destroy Steam, it cant do it alone. GOG has a better chance at competing with Steam than EGS does

r u serious??EGS is byfar the most generous in giving good quality free Games by any storefront whatsoever.
GTA V premium Edition, Just Cause 4,Batman Series,Rise of Tomb Raider Series, Borderlands 2,GodFall,Control etc

Steam rarely gives free games and if at all, its some 10+ yr old game
The least Steam could do is give a SUBSCRIPTION services like $9.9 or $14.99 a month for its hidden,unknown or maybe just 1/10th of its library and players would be loving it but no...There are just the way there were on day 1.. like 90% of Steam players only play like 10% of the most popular games(CSGO,DOTA,GTA V, & other AAA etc).

 

[Vayra86]

Agreed with everything else but this.

Private joke, don't you ?

I'm still trying to remember a digital "thing" created by EU that was not a pain in the ass for european tech and nothing but a small annoyance for big US tech (I don't speak of chinese tech, US did the job to stop them and EU followed).

Check out what is happening with GDPR and the global effect it created. Its pioneering an age where data represents value and it will offer a framework for others. The copying happens its just called differently, such as US congress looking at certain tech companies to split them up. Or the stance on USB chargers, another good example, pain in the ass or pretty neat?

Even if EGS wins a place at the table is still a virtual duopoly (GOG is but a small player incapable of disrupting anything). We need a real market functioning in our benefit not this. But i guess people can't look past "the Steam store as all my games and friends".

If EGS wins, companies will realize that there is room for another competitor besides Steam. You have to find a niche or you have to attack the market at large but one thing is clear: you need a wealth of content preferably presented in a good way (curation, store UI, etc.). Its not necessarily a problem to have two or maybe three giants at the table, all you need is good checks and balances to keep the power balance intact between stakeholders - consumers, distributors, publishers, studios.

 

[Bomby569]

If EGS wins, companies will realize that there is room for another competitor besides Steam. You have to find a niche or you have to attack the market at large but one thing is clear: you need a wealth of content preferably presented in a good way (curation, store UI, etc.). Its not necessarily a problem to have two or maybe three giants at the table, all you need is good checks and balances to keep the power balance intact between stakeholders - consumers, distributors, publishers, studios.

i don't think i explain my point of view, i mean EGS wins as a platform (nothing to do with this case), is by trowing porno amounts of money probably no one will ever be able to replicate and between them and Valve it will be even worst, it's two giants to stop competition, not just one. I don't believe for a moment they would welcome anyone else. Think phones, apple vs android, think nvidia vs amd (amd changed a lot for the worst, they just replicate nvidia behavior), we consumers are losing. Two is almost never the right number of competitors.

If this cases opens the market then sure, there is room for 1, 2, 3, 50, whatever it is the number of competitors that want to come in. That would be good.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

r u serious??EGS is byfar the most generous in giving good quality free Games by any storefront whatsoever.
GTA V premium Edition, Just Cause 4,Batman Series,Rise of Tomb Raider Series, Borderlands 2,GodFall,Control etc

None of those titles are current (less than a year old), they were several years old when they were offered. Thats like arguing a 980 Ti is currently the best card to play Crysis 5.0 or Just Cause 8 on max settings.

Steam rarely gives free games and if at all, its some 10+ yr old game
The least Steam could do is give a SUBSCRIPTION services like $9.9 or $14.99 a month for its hidden,unknown or maybe just 1/10th of its library and players would be loving it but no...There are just the way there were on day 1.. like 90% of Steam players only play like 10% of the most popular games(CSGO,DOTA,GTA V, & other AAA etc).

Dont let me burst your bubble here...but LOL. Steam cannot offer free games as you think, on its own, it cant, that doesnt mean free games cannot be found, there are plenty of them.
IDK what your smoking there, but I'd like to see some actual numbers to back up your claims of whats being played by '90%' of Steam gamers.

 

[Bomby569]

None of those titles are current (less than a year old), they were several years old when they were offered. Thats like arguing a 980 Ti is currently the best card to play Crysis 5.0 or Just Cause 8 on max settings.

That's a lie, plain and simple lie. They game Total War Troy at launch day, a AAA game. Besides that there were many other less renowed games given away that were less then a year old.

The lenghts people go to shill for a company

 

[R-T-B]

That's a lie, plain and simple lie. They game Total War Troy at launch day

I was about to say this.

 

[evernessince]

looks like Steam has gone the way of other Greedy Corporates in the last few years.
a Monopoly for too long , Good thing that EPIC has step in to atleast put some competition.

30% cut from developers(not good for smaller devs & they get hidden in the deepest pit of game dumps), and gone are the Golden Days of STEAM SALES.

Or you just don't understand the topic or how steam keys work.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

That's a lie, plain and simple lie. They game Total War Troy at launch day, a AAA game. Besides that there were many other less renowed games given away that were less then a year old.

The lenghts people go to shill for a company

Ill admit I was unaware of that launch, but you should have brought that up instead of making generalized claims.

BTW its spelled Lengths not lenghts, and I dont shill so you can KMA on that. If you cant have a discussion without calling people names you are not worth my time.

 

[Bomby569]

Ill admit I was unaware of that launch, but you should have brought that up instead of making generalized claims.

BTW its spelled Lengths not lenghts, and I dont shill so you can KMA on that. If you cant have a discussion without calling people names you are not worth my time.

That is not the intent at all. EGS's free games are, well, mostly crap. You wont see a AAA game, not a current one atleast, Far CRY 3 is the closest it came to a AAA game, and its quite a few years old. EGS is not trying to destroy Steam, it cant do it alone. GOG has a better chance at competing with Steam than EGS does.

A good rule of thumb is not talk about things you don't know. Anyway like i said that was not the only game offered that was less then a year old

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

A good rule of thumb is not talk about things you don't know. Anyway like i said that was not the only game offered that was less then a year old

I am talking about what I know, just because 1 game is missed after, how long has EGS been around? It doesnt mean anything. Are there others I may have missed? Sure, but since you think you know them all, name them. If you have to look them up, link the source too. Hint: Indie games are not AAA games.

To be more accurate on my original statement, and, since the word most or mostly didnt register for you, 95% of the free games offered on EGS are not AAA games or NEWLY released AAA games, there may have been exceptions. Poor initial sales may also be considered when adding a game to the free games queue.

Also, Total War Troy was not part of EGS's regular free game offers, its free offering was a PR stunt, and it was only offered for the first 24 hours after launch, an EGS exclusive (this explains why I didnt know about it). Total War Warhammer was offered as a free game and was less than 6 months after initial release.

I was about to say this.

What were you going to say?

Here is the list of EGS free game offers.

Epic Games Store Free Games List (December 2024)

Want to know which game is free this week on the Epic Games Store?

gamerjournalist.com

 

[Bomby569]

To be more accurate on my original statement, and, since the word most or mostly didnt register for you

You wont see a AAA game, not a current one atleast

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

Ignorance is bliss.