Western Digital Launches the Dual Actuator Ultrastar DC HS760 20 TB Hard Drive

[80251]

@Jism
Wow, Conner Peripherals, I haven't heard of them in a long, long time. Was that an example of the tank style HDD (5.25")? I remember back then HDD's had external controllers that could only support a limited number of HDD's unless their firmware was updated, then some company that is long since out of business invented an HDD on a ISA card thus inventing the IDE HDD.

 

[dragontamer5788]

WD Ultrastar DC HC550 18TB = 305 USD
Seagate 18TB Exos X18 = 300 USD

Micron 7450 PRO 15.36TB PCIe Gen4 1x4 NVMe = 1,750 USD
Intel DC P4510 SSDPE2KX080T801 2.5" U.2 8TB PCIe NVMe 3.1 x4 = 750 USD
Micron 9300 PRO Series MTFDHAL15T3TDP-1AT1ZABYY 2.5" U.2 15.36TB PCI-Express 3.0 x4 = 3,000 USD

Source: newegg.com


Yeah the prices for enterprise SSD's have a long way to go to catch up to spinning rust in terms of price efficiency per GB.

You know what's fun? Tape Drives.

Quantum LTO Ultrium-7 Data Cartridge - Newegg.com

Buy Quantum LTO Ultrium-7 Data Cartridge with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!

www.newegg.com

6TB Raw per LTO7 drive x 20 Drives == 120TB for $1250 on Newegg right now.

------------

EDIT: Woah, didn't realize LTO 8 was out.

OWC 12TB/30TB Ultrium 8 LTO-8 Data Cartridge for... at MacSales.com

16551221 OWC Ultrium 8 LTO-8 Data Cartridge for Ultrium 8 (LTO-8) Drives. Provides up to 12TB native/30TB compressed data storage capacity. Manufactured by Fujifilm for OWC.

eshop.macsales.com

LTO 8 is $70 for 12TB, beating LTO7 prices.

---------

I've literally never have had a use of Tape though. HDDs always had enough storage for me, so it never made sense for me to drop like $5,000 on a tape library + $3000+ on tapes, lol.

 

[chrcoluk]

You can't be serious? Ignore the cost much??

Guessing he is a lottery winner, dont know.

Even google mostly uses spindle storage. I do giggle when people post silly things like spindles are about to die off.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Guessing he is a lottery winner, dont know.

Even google mostly uses spindle storage. I do giggle when people post silly things like spindles are about to die off.

In the consumer space that is certainly the trend, though. Newer laptops have all but forgone the SATA port already, my midrange 2021 laptop has two M.2 2280 slots instead.

Games have finally begun to be optimized for NVMe setups, Flopspoken being the first game to use it.

 

[Jism]

@Jism
Wow, Conner Peripherals, I haven't heard of them in a long, long time. Was that an example of the tank style HDD (5.25")? I remember back then HDD's had external controllers that could only support a limited number of HDD's unless their firmware was updated, then some company that is long since out of business invented an HDD on a ISA card thus inventing the IDE HDD.

I'm not sure. I had a Conner 80MB disk somewhere back in the days with my "First" 486 DX2 66Mhz. 80MB was quite alot considered back in the days. Upgraded that later on to 480MB or so which seemed like endless of space, esp with tools like Doublespace in MS-Dos, which made basicly a big zip file of your C drive and compress it's contents thus saving space.

Those things required a park command before you could shutdown the computer. park.com it was. It would write back any cache left and park the head in the properiate position before you could shut it off safely. And a external controller obviously which ate a whole ISA slot.

 

[chrcoluk]

In the consumer space that is certainly the trend, though. Newer laptops have all but forgone the SATA port already, my midrange 2021 laptop has two M.2 2280 slots instead.

Games have finally begun to be optimized for NVMe setups, Flopspoken being the first game to use it.

Consumer it will survive for mass storage purposes, NAS and/or PCs with drive bays, external storage for consoles. But yes the pre built part of consumer space like laptops and consoles have long moved to nand storage.

There is a market shift, but importantly not a market takeover, spindles will always have a place for as long as nand prices stay high which is likely for a long time as they want to hold on to those profit margins.

What baffles me is why spindles havent moved to 5400rpm as standard, cheaper to make, cheaper to run, quieter, more reliable, instead 5400rpm is been phased out.

 

[lexluthermiester]

IMHO, best installed on a network-attached server instead of locally in the client computer.

Good qualification. Many would disagree, myself included. Why the hell would anyone want to go through the hassle and expense of setting up a NAS drive(array) when they can far more easily install a drive in their personal system? Your logic makes no sense for most people..

IMHO, I would argue that for all but the most massive data storage needs, HDDs are not only redundant: they've become obsolete.

You forgot to qualify that statement. Reality disagrees with you.

You'll see that in 10 years from now on HDD's become pretty much obsolete.

Not without a major break through in NAND technology, which has yet to show itself.

 

[chrcoluk]

Indeed my NAS is my second PC, the case is horrid, but when I next expand the drives in it, will swap the case for a define R5 with proper bays. NAS units seem ridicolously overpriced for the limited bays they offer.

 

[Prima.Vera]

@Prima.Vera
There are at least a couple of manufacturers of 8 TiB SSD's now, Samsung is definitely one of those, they have the 8 TiB 870 QVO.

Correct. But still ridiculously overpriced, with no price discounts over the years.
Looks like a continue stagnation pf price and size of SSDs at this moment.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Indeed my NAS is my second PC, the case is horrid, but when I next expand the drives in it, will swap the case for a define R5 with proper bays. NAS units seem ridicolously overpriced for the limited bays they offer.

Most people won't and have no desire to do anything like that, nor have an NAS.

 

[chrcoluk]

Its a good job I am not "most people".

I for years did just stick all my hdd's in my main rig, but now I use ZFS and my main rig is windows it meant putting them elsewhere, there is still 4 in this PC though (2x 3TB red's and 2x 4TB red's). My decision was made easier that I already had a 2nd PC, I probably wouldnt have built one just to use as a NAS.

 

[lexluthermiester]

My decision was made easier that I already had a 2nd PC, I probably wouldnt have built one just to use as a NAS.

Exactly.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Good qualification. Many would disagree, myself included. Why the hell would anyone want to go through the hassle and expense of setting up a NAS drive(array) when they can far more easily install a drive in their personal system? Your logic makes no sense for most people..

You forgot to qualify that statement. Reality disagrees with you.


Not without a major break through in NAND technology, which has yet to show itself.

I'll rest my case:

1. Locally installed HDDs are obviously present in your machine. That means if your computer is subject to something unforeseen, the chances of it breaking alongside your machine are very high. If it's on another machine off-site, and this may mean just another room in your house, your data is safe from the ordeal. This becomes exponentially more important the more data you must safekeep.

2. NAS can be used by multiple clients at once. This becomes especially interesting if your storage capacity is vast and has the potential to greatly simplify your workflow. If I want to access my file storage from my phone that's just a click away. Speed not being essential, I've just repurposed an old socket 775 machine to serve as the host. It'd be e-waste otherwise...

3. HDDs have slow response times and will often slow your computer down by merely being installed in it. One of the most efficient ways to improve a computer's perceived snappiness is to get rid of them. I mean, I could go on and on - you can even just have the HDD installed on an external dock with no penalty to its performance whenever you actually need it, and without it weighing down on your computer waiting for it to spin up (a problem which will never be resolved simply because of how an HDD works).

4. Breakthroughs in NAND technologies occur at a much faster pace than in the HDD industry, and even alternative types of flash memory have been developed in the meantime.

High end helium-filled HDDs came out in 2013 starting with a 6 TB capacity. Since then we've seen a 3x increase in device capacity, where with SSDs we have seen an increase on the consumer segment that will easily exceed 10x. 2.5-inch form factor SATA SSDs are not difficult to find in 3.84 to 7.68TB capacity within a reasonable $/GB range, the only issue remaining being absolute cost of such a device: and that tends to to down as the technology inevitably matures. The highest capacity readily available enterprise grade SSD in 2008, the Intel X25-E, had 64 GB. Just food for thought.

If I had to say, Western Digital and Seagate were both smart to invest full force in the SSD industry. Toshiba even spun off its flash business and rebranded around the technology (thus giving birth to the company now known as Kioxia), it's just how important it has become.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Probably this year Nimbus Exadrive 200TB but price will be...

 

[lexluthermiester]

1. Locally installed HDDs are obvious present in your machine. That means if your computer is subject to something unforeseen, the chances of it breaking alongside your machine are very high. If it's on another machine off-site, and this may mean just another room in your house, your data is safe from the ordeal.

NAS boxes are subject to all of the same "unforessen" events a PC would be. Not a great argument.

2. NAS can be used by multiple clients at once. If I want to access my file storage from my phone that's just a click away. Speed not being essential, I've just repurposed an old socket 775 machine to serve as the host. It'd be e-waste otherwise...

Any PC can be setup with the same network shares as an NAS. There are no advantages other than an NAS box being more energy efficient.

3. HDDs have slow response times and will often slow your computer down by merely being installed in them. One of the most efficient ways to improve a computer's perceived snappiness is to get rid of them. I mean, I could go on and on - you can even just have the HDD installed on an external dock with no penalty to its performance whenever you actually need it, and without it weighing down on your computer waiting for it to spin up (a problem which will never be resolved simply because of how an HDD works).

Slow relative to what? Most modern HDDs deliver speeds north of 150MBps which is more than most storage needs require. Computers are not magically more "snappy" when HDDs are removed, especially when the system in question has an SSD as a primary/boot drive. External enclosures can be handy, but most people prefer not having drives scattered all over their desk. And bootup times are not affected by more than 1 or 2 seconds, so really?

4. Breakthroughs in NAND technologies occur at a much faster pace than in the HDD industry, and even alternative types of flash memory have been developed in the meantime.

Not fast enough. And there is nothing on the horizon that can overcome the bit density threshold wall the industry is hitting up against. QLC has gotten better, but is still unacceptable as primary storage. All research on PLC(5bit per cell) NAND is showing it to be a dead end as NAND cell durability doesn't get above double digits and speed is slower than OLD hard drives.

Anyone who dismisses and discounts a viable highend technology because of personal perception is making a mistake and needlessly limiting themselves.

 

[Dr. Dro]

NAS boxes are subject to all of the same "unforessen" events a PC would be. Not a great argument.

Any PC can be setup with the same network shares as an NAS. There are no advantages other than an NAS box being more energy efficient.

Slow relative to what? Most modern HDDs deliver speeds north of 150MBps which is more than most storage needs require. Computers are not magically more "snappy" when HDDs are removed, especially when the system in question has an SSD as a primary/boot drive. External enclosures can be handy, but most people prefer not having drives scattered all over their desk. And bootup times are not affected by more than 1 or 2 seconds, so really?

Not fast enough. And there is nothing on the horizon that can overcome the bit density threshold wall the industry is hitting up against. QLC has gotten better, but is still unacceptable as primary storage. All research on PLC(5bit per cell) NAND is showing it to be a dead end as NAND cell durability doesn't get above double digits and speed is slower than OLD hard drives.

Anyone who dismisses and discounts a viable highend technology because of personal perception is making a mistake and needlessly limiting themselves.

I'm not limiting myself, neither did I dismiss it entirely - rather, I acknowledged HDD technology's benefits - but I also don't see the point of having spinning rust on my desktop anymore for the reasons I've outlined above. They will have their market and their place, but I strongly feel anyone building a computer today should own a dedicated NAS or use a dock instead of installing HDDs on their machine, unless their data storage requirements are pretty much extreme with very high access frequency. Of course, only you know what is best for your personal use case, and I respect that.

Hard sell on the adequate speed, IMO. 150 MB/s sequential is slower than a flagship internet connection today. It's... no good. Not anymore. Sure, it would (and does) serve my personal needs, but I use my NAS to... store and play anime. 1080p, 24 fps video, if you will. My claim of computers being snappier without HDDs installed primarily has Windows in mind. The OS is always trying to query the drives and gets stuck on a busy wait loop until the drive responds, which from a powered down HDD can take several seconds to occur. This will likely never change.

Despite the challenges you've outlined, hasn't the HDD industry hit the same snags? How long did it take for them to get HAMR technology working? Ten years ago, when helium-filled HDDs first came out, the industry doubted that the system would be feasible. Fast forward to today, and only high-end drives use the tech. Bit-pattern HDMR technology is still not expected to be available until 2025, and almost no consumer-grade, including NAS-marketed drives feature these technologies yet, especially at the lower end of capacity and more affordable drives.

Most HDDs, in fact, have gotten simplified, lower-performing designs, favoring SMR over CMR even at low capacities with CMR designs being actually placed at a premium segment (for example, if you want a 1 TB CMR drive you have to splurge for a WD Gold), - and yet worse, many of these changes were done silently by the companies who completely omitted these changes to their customers, so it's not like only the SSD industry has run into woes of their own in the pursuit of either profit or lower cost devices.

The industry will find a way, it always does, its survival depends on it

 

[lexluthermiester]

I'm not limiting myself, neither did I dismiss it entirely

But you did say the following earlier in the thread;

HDDs are not only redundant: they've become obsolete.

That can not be mistaken for anything other than a resounding dismissal of the technology.

Most HDDs, in fact, have gotten simplified

True. Advances have allowed for this.

lower-performing designs

False. Hard drive performance has been doing what it has always done, improve with each generation.

favoring SMR over CMR even at low capacities

False. With the controversy surrounding SMR, drive makers have been moving away from it. But even SMR drives performed well enough for daily use. I have personally tested this.

(for example, if you want a 1 TB CMR drive you have to splurge for a WD Gold)

Completely false. MOST HDD's on the market are CMR, not SMR.

Hard sell on the adequate speed, IMO.

Once again, your opinion does NOT reality make.

150 MB/s sequential is slower than a flagship internet connection today.

I said "north" of 150MBps(megaBYTEs per second), meaning above it. Most drives are well above it. And as for your "flagship internet" comment, 99.5% of the world doesn't have access to anything faster than 100Mbps(megaBITS per second) and the 0.5% that do can afford SSD's above 4TB. However, even most of them would prefer 20TB+ drive array's to a 4TB+ SSD's for less money. And I know this data because it's my job!

 

[Dr. Dro]

Eh, have it your way. We're just going to bicker endlessly from now on and the back and forth has grown long enough. I'm quite unwilling to drag on the argument.

It's clear you feel quite invested in the medium and to be as honest as I possibly can, in my eyes mechanical HDDs can join Windows 7, writable optical media and the SATA connection standard in the list of things that have contributed their part and can now rest in peace.

 

[chrcoluk]

For whats its worth my HDD keeps up fine when downloading at gigabit on steam. I do agree for the majority of people 150MB i/o performance is more then adequate, easily enough for watching anime etc which needs a fraction of that.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Eh, have it your way. We're just going to bicker endlessly from now on and the back and forth has grown long enough. I'm quite unwilling to drag on the argument.

That is because your position in this "argument" is not based on merit based logical conclusion. It's based on your feelings and anytime someone debates a point with their feelings instead of merit they usually give up when someone points out meritus information.

It's clear you feel quite invested in the medium

I am invested in merit and evidence based thinking.

and to be as honest as I possibly can

Oh hey, more feelings...

in my eyes mechanical HDDs can join Windows 7, writable optical media and the SATA connection standard in the list of things that have contributed their part and can now rest in peace.

Feel better?

And before you ask why it seems like I'm attacking you, I'm not. However, I have no tolerance for people who try to stifle progress because they perceive something that isn't correct to begin with. IF you don't like HDD's, fine, don't use them. But don't go telling people they shouldn't use them either just because you think they're obsolete. That kind of thing is no different than the nonsense offered by the "cancel-culture" crowd and is completely unacceptable in a civilized society.

For whats its worth my HDD keeps up fine when downloading at gigabit on steam.

Exactly, most do.

 

[xorbe]

Do you guys actually need 20TB drives? I switched to nvme/ssd and cut my data way back. After like 4-5 failures in a row of various brand 4TB HDDs is when I started only using ssd.

 

[thesmokingman]

Do you guys actually need 20TB drives? I switched to nvme/ssd and cut my data way back. After like 4-5 failures in a row of various brand 4TB HDDs is when I started only using ssd.

Clearly you have small amounts of data. If you have 40/60/80/100tb of data, and that's not that much, good luck storing it on ssd.

 

[Bwaze]

Do you guys actually need 20TB drives? I switched to nvme/ssd and cut my data way back. After like 4-5 failures in a row of various brand 4TB HDDs is when I started only using ssd.

I thought years ago I'd switch to SSD by now. But two things happened:

1. As others have pointed out, SSD drives basically stopped at 4TB. Any rare disk larger than that is also more expensive per terabyte. And it doesn't look it's going to change soon.

2. New 45 megapixel camera with 40 MB per image RAW file size... I'm just a hobby photographer, but I have amassed more than 6 TB of photos in a decade, and it's growing fast...

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

You're joking, right?? SSDs are stuck on 4TB size for more than 5 years in a row now. While HDDs with bigger size are also inflating their prices.
It's a loss-loss for consumers from both sides...

Erm....In the enterprise area 30Tb is the new "halo" Size with extremes hitting 200Tb

 

[Bwaze]

But most of us don't live on a 23rd century Federation Constitution-class starship.