AMD Clarifies Differences Between Ryzen Z1 Gaming Series and 7040U APUs

[T0@st]

The ASUS ROG Ally handheld games console emerged last month and it was revealed to pack some impressive "custom" AMD hardware - the two companies have boasted that the collaboration has resulted in two special SoCs - the Ryzen Z1 and Ryzen Z1 Extreme. Silicon enthusiasts were quick to point out that the Z1 series sported similar specifications to mobile/ultra-portable chipsets in AMD's 7040U family - in particular the Ryzen 7 7840U looks almost identical to its gaming equivalent (Ryzen Z1 Extreme). Andrew E. Freedman at Tom's Hardware was curious and motivated enough to request clarification (about this situation) from AMD. Team Red were happy to respond and acknowledged the apparent similarities between the gaming and laptop chipset ranges, but also stated that Z1 APUs have been tweaked by company engineers to a certain degree.

Matthew Hurwitz, a client PR manager at AMD, provided a response to the Tom's Hardware-issued query: "The Ryzen Z1 series are purpose-built with handheld gaming in mind. To accomplish this, AMD engineers had to validate entirely new power ranges and optimize the voltage curves specifically for this use case - this optimization and validation work should not be trivialized. So while the technology building blocks (like 'Zen 4' and RDNA 3) are similar between the 7040 and Z1 series, the resulting models have very distinct characteristics customized for their use cases. In addition, the AMD Ryzen AI engine is not available on AMD Ryzen Z1 series processors." Hurwitz also confirmed that AMD's XDNA AI engine is merely disabled (so not removed at hardware level) on the two Z1 APUs - this feature is only enabled on the range-topping Ryzen 7 7840U model and mid-range Ryzen 5 7640U. So yes, there are small differences but AMD and ASUS have probably saved some money on development costs by creating and adopting the "slightly adjusted" Z1 SoC series.

Update May 6th: Tom's Hardware has amended their article (as of May 5, 5:03 p.m. ET) - another source within AMD has informed them about the Z1 and Z1 Extreme APUs having configurable TDPs of 9 W to 30 W. The original story - and AMD's website - claimed a range of 15-30 W.



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[ToTTenTranz]

So it's a 7040 with a different voltage table and the AI engine disabled.


I'm pretty sure we can just tweak the voltage table on windows, so we're better off choosing a handheld with a 7840U, especially if it comes with LPDDR5X 7500MT/s, unlike the Asus ROG Ally that only uses LPDDR5 6400MT/s.

 

[Nephilim666]

So it's a 7040 with a different voltage table and the AI engine disabled.


I'm pretty sure we can just tweak the voltage table on windows, so we're better off choosing a handheld with a 7840U, especially if it comes with LPDDR5X 7500MT/s, unlike the Asus ROG Ally that only uses LPDDR5 6400MT/s.

Whilst I would want the AI engine for other productivity tasks, you cannot tweak the voltage table on these mobile chips.
You can use software like motion assistant to fluidly optimise tdp on the fly though.

 

[HisDivineOrder]

Minor voltage differences, massive pricing differences. This lets AMD keep selling chips for laptops at inflated prices and sell select handheld device makers the same CPU for a much more reasonable price. Just how the game is played, I think.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Minor voltage differences, massive pricing differences. This lets AMD keep selling chips for laptops at inflated prices and sell select handheld device makers the same CPU for a much more reasonable price. Just how the game is played, I think.

I don't know why you think AMD sells CPUs and APUs for laptops at very different prices than in this cause Z1 series APU(maybe vanilla Z1 really is cheaper but it is really very stripped down in the graphics part compared to Z1 Extreme). In fact, official MSRPs mean nothing when there are deals for hundreds of thousands or millions of units. Their prices, as well as the rest of the components, are a trade secret, so they allow laptop manufacturers to make a bigger profit margin than we succeed to imagine.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Minor voltage differences, massive pricing differences. This lets AMD keep selling chips for laptops at inflated prices and sell select handheld device makers the same CPU for a much more reasonable price. Just how the game is played, I think.

Which is a bummer for the likes of GPD, AYA, Aokzoe etc. that have been investing and building an audience for PC handhelds for years, but now won't be able to compete in price.

I don't know why you think AMD sells CPUs and APUs for laptops at very different prices than in this cause Z1 series APU(maybe vanilla Z1 really is cheaper but it is really very stripped down in the graphics part compared to Z1 Extreme). In fact, official MSRPs mean nothing when there are deals for hundreds of thousands or millions of units. Their prices, as well as the rest of the components, are a trade secret, so they allow laptop manufacturers to make a bigger profit margin than we succeed to imagine.

There's been a number of industry insiders confirming the fact that the Z1 Extreme is indeed considerably cheaper than the 7840U.
It might be a matter of scale, i.e. you can only order 100 000 Z1 chips at a time, and that pushes out all the smaller handheld makers.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

There's been a number of industry insiders confirming the fact that the Z1 Extreme is indeed considerably cheaper than the 7840U.

WoW? Exaples for that, please. With numbers, naked words easy to be lie.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

So it's a 7040 with a different voltage table and the AI engine disabled.


I'm pretty sure we can just tweak the voltage table on windows, so we're better off choosing a handheld with a 7840U, especially if it comes with LPDDR5X 7500MT/s, unlike the Asus ROG Ally that only uses LPDDR5 6400MT/s.

Your talking about a handheld, everything you said while correct would end your gaming session quickly.

That's going to make you want to do all you can to manage power use, or you could just appreciate what Asus and AMD did with Z1.

I don't think you'll match a z1's efficiency no matter what you do with a 7840in the same apps.

 

[ixi]

Everyone talking about handheld while I'm here waiting for apu on desktop which is good... in gaming :}.

4650G already is awesome, but stronger iGPU will only help.

 

[caccialdo]

Minor voltage differences, massive pricing differences. This lets AMD keep selling chips for laptops at inflated prices and sell select handheld device makers the same CPU for a much more reasonable price. Just how the game is played, I think.

We'll have to wait and see on the performance front. The custom apu used in the steam deck proved that tweaking power curves at the hardware level was doing more than what can be achieved using an 6800u and publicly accessible power management tools, with the SD apu outpacing the 6800u between 5-15w despite weaker hardware on paper. Could obviously be wrong so I'm excited for the first in-depth reviews

 

[ixi]

We'll have to wait and see on the performance front. The custom apu used in the steam deck proved that tweaking power curves at the hardware level was doing more than what can be achieved using an 6800u and publicly accessible power management tools, with the SD apu outpacing the 6800u between 5-15w despite weaker hardware on paper. Could obviously be wrong so I'm excited for the first in-depth reviews

Source?

 

[caccialdo]

Source?

SteamDeck vs GPD WinMax 2 6800U - Can AMD Van Gogh Compete Against AMD Rembrandt 6800U? (The Phawx)

I stand corrected though: the 6800u starts outpacing the SD apu from 10-11w, not 15w as I mentioned above. Low TDP is where I'm hoping that the voltages tweaks done by AMD on the Z1 will give the Z1 Extreme the upper hand over the 7840u.

 

[trsttte]

We'll have to wait and see on the performance front. The custom apu used in the steam deck proved that tweaking power curves at the hardware level was doing more than what can be achieved using an 6800u and publicly accessible power management tools, with the SD apu outpacing the 6800u between 5-15w despite weaker hardware on paper. Could obviously be wrong so I'm excited for the first in-depth reviews

The Steam Deck has a big trick up it's sleeves though, it uses quad channel memory - not just the DDR5 kind of quad channel, really quad channel with 4x32b (8x16b because lpddr5).

 

[prtskg]

Z1's TDP range starts from 9W according to Tom's hardware. TPU's pic shows 15W.

 

[T0@st]

Z1's TDP range starts from 9W according to Tom's hardware. TPU's pic shows 15W.

Spotted that this morning, thanks for another reminder. I've updated the piece with the revamped Tom's Hardware spec chart.

 

[david salsero]

So it's a 7040 with a different voltage table and the AI engine disabled.


I'm pretty sure we can just tweak the voltage table on windows, so we're better off choosing a handheld with a 7840U, especially if it comes with LPDDR5X 7500MT/s, unlike the Asus ROG Ally that only uses LPDDR5 6400MT/s.

+1 Totally agree. What you have to do is produce more AMD ZEN 4 7040 Phoenix = DDR5 + RDNA 3 + USB 4.0 + HDMI 2.1 + AI with XDNA architecture developed by Xilinx and all at 4nm vs 10nm Intel for ultrabook
You have the best processor in history and we still can't enjoy any ultrabook.
You have the opportunity to offer ultrabook under 2.2lb without heating up and AAA gaming performance and we don't see it in the market and people get impatient and put 32GB of RAM to get the most out of the ultrabook and not 16GB with less than 6000Mhz.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

WoW? Exaples for that, please. With numbers, naked words easy to be lie.

ThePhawx in this video, IIRC:

Keep in mind that, as one of the earliest youtubers dedicated to gaming handhelds, he's been keeping close contact with GPD and AYA. So whatever he's saying it's coming from talking with these companies.
I think ETAPrime said the same in another video.

Your talking about a handheld, everything you said while correct would end your gaming session quickly.

I'm confused. What exactly did I say that would end my gaming session quickly?

I don't think you'll match a z1's efficiency no matter what you do with a 7840in the same apps.

It's the same chip. The last time we saw regular chips with custom voltages were the Surface Book APUs. The efficiency advantages were nothing to write home about.

The Steam Deck has a big trick up it's sleeves though, it uses quad channel memory - not just the DDR5 kind of quad channel, really quad channel with 4x32b (8x16b because lpddr5).

It's quad-channel LPDDR5 because LPDDR5 modules have a 32bit arrangement.
In the end, it's using the same 128bit width as every modern consumer x86 CPU/APU. The Z1 will also use the same 128bit, DDR5 or LPDDR5/X.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

ThePhawx in this video, IIRC:

Keep in mind that, as one of the earliest youtubers dedicated to gaming handhelds, he's been keeping close contact with GPD and AYA. So whatever he's saying it's coming from talking with these companies.
I think ETAPrime said the same in another video.



I'm confused. What exactly did I say that would end my gaming session quickly?


It's the same chip. The last time we saw regular chips with custom voltages were the Surface Book APUs. The efficiency advantages were nothing to write home about.



It's quad-channel LPDDR5 because LPDDR5 modules have a 32bit arrangement.
In the end, it's using the same 128bit width as every modern consumer x86 CPU/APU. The Z1 will also use the same 128bit, DDR5 or LPDDR5/X.

Yeah I meant your gaming would be over sooner due to higher power use is all.
They'll likely configure Z1 in ways you can't match with a 7040 IMHO.

 

[trsttte]

It's quad-channel LPDDR5 because LPDDR5 modules have a 32bit arrangement.
In the end, it's using the same 128bit width as every modern consumer x86 CPU/APU. The Z1 will also use the same 128bit, DDR5 or LPDDR5/X.

Nope, desktops use 128bits (2x 64bits channels, further split into 2x 32bits per channel with DDR5). LPDDR only has 32bits per channel to begin with. A regular laptop/handheld using LPDDR will have 2x 32bits channels (further split into 2x 16bits with LPDDR4 and LPDDR5), the steam deck has 4x 32bits channels which makes a huge difference in memory bandwidth (it's double basically) and is a huge advantage considering APU's are regularly memory starved.

The Z1 will use the same configuration any laptop uses, 2x32b which is half what the steam deck has with their custom silicon - not just tuned, truly custom solution. It will most probably still perform much better, but I don't see it embarassing the steam deck that easily.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

A regular laptop/handheld using LPDDR will have 2x 32bits channels (further split into 2x 16bits with LPDDR4 and LPDDR5), the steam deck has 4x 32bits channels which makes a huge difference in memory bandwidth (it's double basically) and is a huge advantage considering APU's are regularly memory starved.

Care to point out which modern x86 laptop or handheld is using 2x32bit channels?

The Z1 will use the same configuration any laptop uses, 2x32b which is half what the steam deck has with their custom silicon - not just tuned, truly custom solution. It will most probably still perform much better, but I don't see it embarassing the steam deck that easily.

No, every laptop SoC that supports 128bit DDR5 also supports 128bit LPDDR5. Van Gogh uses 128bit LPDDR5 just like like Phoenix, Rembrandt, Raptor Lake and Alder Lake.
AIDA64 memory bandwidth results will tell you as much.