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That is nonsense. Legacy instructions work fine.x86 is old, and has so much legacy things that it makes it slow and inefficient compared to modern alternatives
That is nonsense. Legacy instructions work fine.x86 is old, and has so much legacy things that it makes it slow and inefficient compared to modern alternatives
System Name | Overlord Mk MLI |
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Except ATX 3.0 PSUs with 12VHPWR made sure they're less dumb, at least with regards to power delivery to the graphics card, if the extra four pins are present that can deliver power on demand to the graphics card.The PSU gets to be more of what it already is, a simple, dumb and reliable brick.
System Name | Pioneer |
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No one is saying they don't work, they take up silicon space that could be used for other things though.That is nonsense. Legacy instructions work fine.
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No one is saying they don't work, they take up silicon space that could be used for other things though.
That is funny because intel only recently stopped production of their IA-64 in 2021.
IA-64 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Also:
x86-64 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Processor | i5-6600K |
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TL;DR but I'll read that one, I promise. However, here's my take: the Northwood Pentium 4 had 30 M logic transistors (55 M - 25 M of L2 cache). It was the last purely 32-bit desktop CPU from Intel. A modern CPU can't possibly need more than 30 M per core for 32-bit compatibility, and that's a naïve upper bound, even with new features that came later, such as VT-* and rings.I found it around:
"So, it was estimated that the Pentium used 30% of its transistors to support the x86 ISA. Since the x86 ISA and support hardware remained relatively constant, by the Pentium 4 era, x86 support was estimated to account for 10% of the transistor count.
Ars Technica' Jon Stokes touches on this x86-RISC decoding cost on The Pentium: An Architectural History of the World's Most Famous Desktop Processor."
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My guess is that Intel found security vulnerabilities in 32-bit protected mode and related stuff, or may be expecting to find them in the future, so they will remove functionality that's no longer really needed, just in case.
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Haven't read the article, and I'm not sure what they call "x86 support", but let's use that vague thing for a number. The quoted sentence implies 10% on early-era Pentium 4 (Willamette, 180nm). And on page 2 there it says "Today, x86 support accounts for well under 10% of the transistors on the Pentium 4". The article's from 2004, so let's assume 2004-era Pentium 4 (Prescott, 90nm)."So, it was estimated that the Pentium used 30% of its transistors to support the x86 ISA. Since the x86 ISA and support hardware remained relatively constant, by the Pentium 4 era, x86 support was estimated to account for 10% of the transistor count.
Someone should quantify/concretize what that actually means. Cleanup just for the sake of aesthetics isn't useful.But it's cleaning house so to speak, this is one of ARM's biggest advantages right now.
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People actually building CPUs disagree with you.I like it, 32bit has become rare to the point that only limited hardware is being used for such systems (embedded CPUs and OSs).
But, they'll have to work with at least AMD, IBM, Microsoft & the Linux community for this to work probably, this is not a simple x86 extension anymore like SSE, AVX, and to be "simple" as they call it, at least Intel and AMD must both agree on basic paths, especially 16bit & 32bit virtualization, it won't be simple anymore if it required separate code paths to address both AMD and Intel systems.
x86 is old, and has so much legacy things that it makes it slow and inefficient compared to modern alternatives (arm, risc-v).
Yeah humans not possessing any form of intellectual collective memory (as opposed to a genetic collective memory carried by the surviving genome) makes our history a dishearteningly sequence of petty revisions punctuating a monstrous blob of plain ineptitude at mutual comprehension.
Not really. The legacy instructions sets in question take up less than 3% of the average Intel CPU P-core and less than 5% of an Ecore(in either case those instructions represent less than 1% of the total die, regardless of model). Keeping them is effortless and doesn't change much. What Intel is pushing for here is to close up "loose ends" in it's ISA, becuase these are all things that can now be done(emulated/simulated) very easily in software. They also fear unknown/undiscovered security vulnerabilities lurking.they take up silicon space that could be used for other things though.
System Name | Pioneer |
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Processor | Ryzen R9 9950X |
Motherboard | GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX |
Cooling | Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans... |
Memory | 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30 |
Video Card(s) | XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310 |
Storage | Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs |
Display(s) | 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display |
Case | Thermaltake Core X31 |
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Keyboard | WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps |
Software | Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024 |
to be quite frank, I'm more confident that intel has more meaningful data on this than whatever numbers we can guess at.Not really. The legacy instructions sets in question take up less than 3% of the average Intel CPU P-core and less than 5% of an Ecore(in either case those instructions represent less than 1% of the total die, regardless of model).
While true, deducing percentages is not difficult. The instruction sets being removed are from the 386/486/Pentium/Pentium2/Pentium3 era. Those dies were made on lithography scales vastly larger than what today's fabs produce. The transistor counts for those CPU's were numbered in the low millions. Today's CPU's are measured in the 10's of billions and recently crossed 100billion. So using simple math, Intel could easily fit a full 386, a full 486, a full Pentium , a full Pentium 2 AND full Pentium 3 and still come in under 30million transistors, and that includes the original onboard caches. However, Intel is not going to cram a whole set of old cores into modern dies, just the parts that are needed to maintain a compatibility layer. They could throw everything in, but they don't. It gets VERY complicated from there.to be quite frank, I'm more confident that intel has more meaningful data on this than whatever numbers we can guess at.
System Name | Pioneer |
---|---|
Processor | Ryzen R9 9950X |
Motherboard | GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX |
Cooling | Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans... |
Memory | 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30 |
Video Card(s) | XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310 |
Storage | Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs |
Display(s) | 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display |
Case | Thermaltake Core X31 |
Audio Device(s) | TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED |
Power Supply | FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W |
Mouse | Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless |
Keyboard | WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps |
Software | Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024 |
Processor | i5-6600K |
---|---|
Motherboard | Asus Z170A |
Cooling | some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar |
Memory | 16GB DDR4-2400 |
Video Card(s) | IGP |
Storage | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB |
Display(s) | 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200 |
Case | Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh |
Audio Device(s) | E-mu 1212m PCI |
Power Supply | Seasonic G-360 |
Mouse | Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse |
Keyboard | Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994 |
Software | Oldwin |
So let's say the 32-bit parts take up 1% or 2% of a P core, or whatever. Even less will be removed because 32-bit code execution ability will remain.While true, deducing percentages is not difficult. The instruction sets being removed are from the 386/486/Pentium/Pentium2/Pentium3 era. Those dies were made on lithography scales vastly larger than what today's fabs produce. The transistor counts for those CPU's were numbered in the low millions. Today's CPU's are measured in the 10's of billions and recent crossed 100billion. So using simple math, Intel could easily fit a full 386, a full 486, a full Pentium , a full Pentium 2 AND full Pentium 3 and still come in under 30million transistors, and that includes the original onboard caches. However, Intel is not going to cram a whole set of old cores into modern dies, just the parts that are needed to maintain a compatibility layer. They could throw everything in, but they don't. It gets VERY complicated from there.
That's a lot even if there's "nothing more". The 32-bit blocks won't develop and maintain themselves, I'd say 1% of Intel engineers' job is associated with them, can we agree on this rough estimate? Intel has some very competent bean counters, they surely do wake up when the corporation's net income goes to (brackets).As I said, Intel is cleaning up it's ISA package and eliminating potential hardware based security risks. Nothing more.
I think that is a misunderstanding of how CPUs compute. 32bit code can easily be handled by a 64bit instruction pipeline as long as it's written/compiled properly. For older code and OS can be configured to interpreter older in a way that is compatible with newer instruction sets. The 16bit/32bit pipelines being removed is not trivial, but at the same time when CPU makers removed 8bit instruction sets and some 16bit instructions, 32bit took over seamlessly because the engineering was done properly. 64bit will do the same.So let's say the 32-bit parts take up 1% or 2% of a P core, or whatever. Even less will be removed because 32-bit code execution ability will remain.
I never said it was. Just stated what I think they're really doing. This is supported by the facts at hand.So even a few tenths of a percent is not negligible
Nonsense! There are TONS of things that still run 32bit and NEED to perform well.As I've said before, no one will miss great 32-bit performance in 2023