Innodisk at Computex 2023: Has the Right Idea About Gen 5 SSDs, to Make them AICs

[btarunr]

Innodisk has the right idea about how to do PCIe Gen 5 NVMe SSDs—to ditch the M.2 form-factor, and make them PCIe add-in cards. This would remove the need for cartoonishly disproportionate cooling solutions with high-pitched 20 mm fans; and rather allow SSD designers to use cooling solutions resembling those of graphics cards. Gen 5 NVMe controllers have a TDP of around 15 W, or roughly similar to that of a motherboard chipset. The M.2-2280 form-factor is tiny for the deployment of a sufficiently large heatsink, and so SSD designers are resorting to active cooling, using 20 mm fans that don't sound pleasant. Most single-slot VGA cooling solutions can make short work of 15 W of heat while being much quieter, some even fanless.

The Innodisk 5TG-P AIC SSD uses a PCIe Gen 5 + NVMe 2.0 SSD controller with a large passive heatsink, a PCI-Express 5.0 x4 host interface, and 32 TB of capacity. The drive runs entirely on slot power, and besides the 3D TLC NAND flash, uses a large DDR4 DRAM cache. The company claims sequential transfer speeds of up to 13 GB/s in either direction. Innodisk is targeting the PCIe 5TG-P at workstation and HEDT use-cases. The company is building them in server-relevant form-factors such as U.2 and E.1S. A CDM screenshot shows 13.62 GB/s sequential reads, with 11.55 GB/s sequential writes.



The nanoSSD PCIe 4TE3 is a single-chip BGA SSD that takes in PCI-Express 4.0 x4 host interface, offers capacities ranging between 128 GB to 1 TB, and sequential transfer speeds of up to 3.6 GB/s reads, with up to 3.2 GB/s writes. The P80 4TG2-P is a client-segment M.2-2280 SSD with a PCI-Express 4.0 x4 interface. The drive has been tested for PlayStation 5 compatibility, and comes in capacities ranging between 512 GB and 4 TB. The drive offers sequential transfer rates of up to 7.1 GB/s reads, with up to 5.8 GB/s writes.



The P42 4TE2 is an M.2-2242 SSD targeted at the OEM and SI markets, it uses a DRAMless Gen 4 controller, and comes in capacities ranging between 128 GB and 2 TB. The drive offers speeds of up to 4 GB/s reads, with up to 3.4 GB/s writes. The P110 4TG2-P iCell is an M.2-22110 SSD with a Gen 4 interface. It uses its extra length to deploy a bank of capacitors, which gives it power-loss protection. The drive comes in 512 GB thru 4 TB capacities, and offers sequential speeds of up to 7.5 GB/s reads, with up to 5.3 GB/s writes. The P80 4TE2 iCell is a miniaturized version of this in the popular M.2-2280 form-factor, but it uses a compact DRAMless architecture to free up PCB real-estate for the capacitor bank.


Innodisk also showed off an assortment of DDR5 DRAM products in standard UDIMM, R-DIMM, and SO-DIMM form-factors, with their applications ranging between PCs to servers. There are some stand-out products, such as the Ultra Temperature class of DDR4 and DDR5 SO-DIMMs, which are meant for outdoor, embedded, industrial, and automotive applications. These SO-DIMMs feature an extreme operational temperature range of -40°C to 125°C, and come in densities ranging between 8 GB single-rank to 32 GB dual-rank.

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[natr0n]

I use an older gen samsung 3.2tb pcie card. Just a simple fan blowing at it never and issue.

 

[Garrus]

I agree with you that single slot pcie AICs make the most sense

Yet I've never bought one.

If you look at PCIe 4.0 solutions, not a single one of the AICs has a reasonable price.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Is it really still wasting valuable raw materials to produce just a 128GB SSD?

 

[MachineLearning]

Having M.2 AICs makes so much more sense nowadays, more than it used to.

Days of, for example, Sabertooth 990FX r3.0: single M.2, not fast enough to need a heatsink, certainly not an elaborate one.

Now motherboards will have 4-6 M.2 slots, elaborate heatsinks and in the case of ASUS things like DIMM.2 . And only 2-4 PCIe slots, 16x 4x and maybe 1x 1x if you're lucky.

M.2 drives also require heatsinks, now quite sizable ones. PCIe AIC can have better thermal dissipation and capacity than most M.2 heatsinks. Without needing fans.

Then, motherboards can have more physical PCIe slots, so anyone not needing 6 M.2 drives can use PCIe for other things (or not at all, but the potential function remains).

 

[chrcoluk]

Funny how things go full circle.

M.2 is really a laptop design adopted to desktop.

Its still frustrating though that when paying for storage, some of the cost is going to research for these insane sequential speeds that still dont really have a use case. The benefits of random i/o is more meaningful and those dont need a higher spec'd PCIe bus.

Having M.2 AICs makes so much more sense nowadays, more than it used to.

Days of, for example, Sabertooth 990FX r3.0: single M.2, not fast enough to need a heatsink, certainly not an elaborate one.

Now motherboards will have 4-6 M.2 slots, elaborate heatsinks and in the case of ASUS things like DIMM.2 . And only 2-4 PCIe slots, 16x 4x and maybe 1x 1x if you're lucky.

M.2 drives also require heatsinks, now quite sizable ones. PCIe AIC can have better thermal dissipation and capacity than most M.2 heatsinks. Without needing fans.

Then, motherboards can have more physical PCIe slots, so anyone not needing 6 M.2 drives can use PCIe for other things (or not at all, but the potential function remains).

I think if there was a mass rush to move to PCIe SSDs, the board manufacturers would just adapt again, which is in their favour as invalidating previous purchase decisions is a great way to obsolete a previous product.

Although I do think a lot of consumers seems to be satisfied with gen 4 being "good enough". Which would probably stem the demand.

My next board is 3 M.2 and 5 PCIe. Albeit only 3 of those PCIe with at least 4 lanes and one used by GPU. So effectively combined capacity for 5 NVME drives. I think thats a better config than one less PCIe in trade for one more M.2.

My current board is for practical purposes just one M.2 (the other is only 2 lanes) and it removes 2 SATA ports when used. However I can use PCIE x4 slots for NVME if needed, which dont disable any SATA ports.

 

[Wirko]

If you look at PCIe 4.0 solutions, not a single one of the AICs has a reasonable price.

True, they don't exist at consumer-friendly prices. But making them with a 5.0 x4 interface instead of 4.0 x8 likely won't make them less expensive.

 

[MachineLearning]

Funny how things go full circle.

M.2 is really a laptop design adopted to desktop.

Its still frustrating though that when paying for storage, some of the cost is going to research for these insane sequential speeds that still dont really have a use case. The benefits of random i/o is more meaningful and those dont need a higher spec'd PCIe bus.


I think if there was a mass rush to move to PCIe SSDs, the board manufacturers would just adapt again, which is in their favour as invalidating previous purchase decisions is a great way to obsolete a previous product.

Although I do think a lot of consumers seems to be satisfied with gen 4 being "good enough". Which would probably stem the demand.

My next board is 3 M.2 and 5 PCIe. Albeit only 3 of those PCIe with at least 4 lanes and one used by GPU. So effectively combined capacity for 5 NVME drives. I think thats a better config than one less PCIe in trade for one more M.2.

My current board is for practical purposes just one M.2 (the other is only 2 lanes) and it removes 2 SATA ports when used. However I can use PCIE x4 slots for NVME if needed, which dont disable any SATA ports.

Even a heatsinked PCIe x16 -> 4x M.2 adapter would do the job perfectly, no need to obsolete perfectly good drives or even the M.2 form factor.

Besides, as you pointed out, laptops will continue to use M.2 (and some handhelds like Steam Deck, etc.). It would not be economical to have M.2 for laptops only, and get rid of it for the desktop market completely.

 

[chrcoluk]

Even a heatsinked PCIe x16 -> 4x M.2 adapter would do the job perfectly, no need to obsolete perfectly good drives or even the M.2 form factor.

Besides, as you pointed out, laptops will continue to use M.2 (and some handhelds like Steam Deck, etc.). It would not be economical to have M.2 for laptops only, and get rid of it for the desktop market completely.

Yeah I dont think M.2 is going anywhere, it will perhaps just be for certian gen 5 drives. Hopefully we will see more adaptors on the market.

 

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

I think AICs would be a great idea, the only problem is current consumer motherboards are severely lacking in PCIe slots, you might get two x16 and they'll throw a x1 in there (I've always wondered why? For the few people who might happen to have a sound card?), but the problem is that if you use the other x16 slot for an AIC SSD, then that cuts your GPU bandwidth in half to x8, which may not result in tangible performance loss in all cases, BUT if users think that it may cause performance loss, they're not going to do it.

Plus, what's the likelihood of a mobo manufacturer taking the only x4 5.0 lanes from the CPU (meant for storage) and wiring them to an x4 slot INSTEAD of an m.2 slot? In enterprise, Prosumer/HEDT this is not an issue obviously, but for consumer platforms it would be, plus there's the usual inertia that'll have to be overcome, after all, mobo makers seem to just love adding more and more m.2 slots....has anyone here actually needed 4 or 5 m.2 slots? Rather they just give me 3 slots and cut $50 off the price.

 

[Chrispy_]

Nothing wrong with going for an AIC for Gen5, but by the time Gen5 is actually relevant to consumers, we'll have low-power controllers that can be passively cooled again.

I have servers that hammer datacentre-grade MLC drives all day and those need to be AIC for cooling reasons, but for consumer desktop OSes there's literally no use case for them yet. DirectStorage was lauded as the reason we'd need PCIe 5.0 SSDs in the future, but we're still waiting. So far we've had one game and DirectStorage made no appreciable difference. When the majority of new games are using DirectStorage, perhaps PCIe 5.0 SSDs will be a more compelling buy for consumers. Until then, you can blind test PCIe 3.0 x2 and PCIe 5.0 x 4 drives and in 99% of the usage examples, nobody is going to know the difference.

 

[rsouzadk]

I just wish u.2 drives would become more mainstream, with at least one u.2/u.3 connector on motherboards.

I use a pcie4 7.68tb u.2 drive through a m2 to u2 adapter and it us just perfect.

 

[Icon Charlie]

IMHO

This validates all of my concerns about the M.2 Format. Heat issues.

Again, I already have a WD SN850 and I did not like the heat, not only being generated by the the stick/heatsink but it overall increased the heat on the rig. It was not much but I run a very cool rig that uses smaller amounts of wattage to gain my results. Because energy cost money now these days.

As stated before I am going to be using my sticks in an external setup as I can disperse the heat outside of the case.

We already had similar products going back years (Ram Disk Anyone) and yet NOW we are just seeing someone in a company decide to make these types of cards (which by the way I would buy one) now????

Overall, this is just sloppy, lazy @$$ed thinking in the higher companies in the tech industry. Man they had to know there was going to be heat issues when cranking up that type of performance.

Again, IHMO this is the talking heads of market saying... Wow... lets increase our profit margins by making.... Heat sinks!!!... But not only just heat sinks... BIG heat sinks with FANS!!!... Brilliant!!

Then paint it white and pink!!!... Place a Hello Kitty/Flavor of the month trend and we can make MOAR money off of the idio... "ahem" customers.

I am glad at least one company is making this type of card. I just wished this was done a few years ago because the technology was definitely there for awhile.

 

[Wirko]

Nothing wrong with going for an AIC for Gen5, but by the time Gen5 is actually relevant to consumers, we'll have low-power controllers that can be passively cooled again.

Hopefully, yes. But the fact that the Phison E26 is very power-voracious at low transfer speeds is not a good sign.

and they'll throw a x1 in there (I've always wondered why? For the few people who might happen to have a sound card?)

It's as universal as it gets. Multi-sata controller, second NIC, faster NIC, the only NIC if lightning kills the one on board (has happened to me), single-lane adapter for a M.2 SSD. PCIe 5.0 will make those x1 interfaces all the more useful, provided that it actually becomes more commonplace in mobos as well as in add-in cards.

 

[trsttte]

If you look at PCIe 4.0 solutions, not a single one of the AICs has a reasonable price.

Yes but I don't think it's a fair comparisonl, how many ssd AIC directed towards the consumer market are there? Enterprise solutions are of course super expensive, but just like there are m.2 in a wide price range, there can also be AIC cards in a wide price range.

It would not be economical to have M.2 for laptops only, and get rid of it for the desktop market completely.

Why not? It won't happen, but for the sake of argument why do you think that is? Laptops already sell a lot more units than desktops and sff like NUCs and other small end point computers for office drones will also use them. The m.2 format doesn't need the desktop to exist and funny enough the desktop also has little use for the m.2 format as space isn't a problem.

This trend of slapping 3 or 4 m.2 slots on motherboards was always pretty silly, probably a way to save money vs using u.2 or pcie slots (they could even sell the AIC adapters for m.2 later but whatever), it seems we're going full circle indeed as chrcoluk said.

Plus, what's the likelihood of a mobo manufacturer taking the only x4 5.0 lanes from the CPU (meant for storage) and wiring them to an x4 slot INSTEAD of an m.2 slot

Just like they adapted to putting 4 m.2 slots on boards, they can adapt back to putting more universal pcie slots

Again, I already have a WD SN850 and I did not like the heat, not only being generated by the the stick/heatsink but it overall increased the heat on the rig. It was not much but I run a very cool rig that uses smaller amounts of wattage to gain my results. Because energy cost money now these days.

Hmm I very much doubt you were able to measure any meaningfull difference in temperature or power usage just because of the SSD, the drive is rated at 9W when going full bore (anandtech measured 7-8W) - but for the ssd to go full bore the rest of the system is also doing something - and less than 1W during regular desktop use.

Good luck with moving the ssds outside the case, i'm sure the cost in the m.2/pcie extensions and probable speed degradation will be worth the ~0.1ºC decrease in temperature inside the case

 

[SRB151]

What was wrong with U.2 and 3.5" drives? don't need a card slot, and the u.2 connectors are easier to integrate into the Motherboard.

 

[Nordic]

M.2 is really a laptop design adopted to desktop.

I am really quite happy for it. It is really nice to not have to deal with sata cables anymore. Nor does it take up as much motherboard space. It is a really convenient solution even on desktop. A full pcie SSD will need the performance to justify the size.

 

[chrcoluk]

What was wrong with U.2 and 3.5" drives? don't need a card slot, and the u.2 connectors are easier to integrate into the Motherboard.

I think U.2 is market segregation.

 

[Garrus]

Nothing wrong with going for an AIC for Gen5, but by the time Gen5 is actually relevant to consumers, we'll have low-power controllers that can be passively cooled again.

I have servers that hammer datacentre-grade MLC drives all day and those need to be AIC for cooling reasons, but for consumer desktop OSes there's literally no use case for them yet. DirectStorage was lauded as the reason we'd need PCIe 5.0 SSDs in the future, but we're still waiting. So far we've had one game and DirectStorage made no appreciable difference. When the majority of new games are using DirectStorage, perhaps PCIe 5.0 SSDs will be a more compelling buy for consumers. Until then, you can blind test PCIe 3.0 x2 and PCIe 5.0 x 4 drives and in 99% of the usage examples, nobody is going to know the difference.

passive cooled models are arriving this Christmas, so I don't see the point in buying these fan requiring models for the next 6 months

 

[Bwaze]

"Innodisk has the right idea about how to do PCIe Gen 5 NVMe SSDs—to ditch the M.2 form-factor, and make them PCIe add-in cards. This would remove the need for cartoonishly disproportionate cooling solutions with high-pitched 20 mm fans; and rather allow SSD designers to use cooling solutions resembling those of graphics cards."

There are currently practically no benefits of buying ultra fast PCIe Gen 5 NVMe SSD, aside from benchmarking. There were very few user cases where PCIe Gen 2, 3 or 4 showed any noticeable speedup compared to SATA drives of any task the user actually performs, aside from maybe copying from one such SSD to another - which mainly just shows how much of that SSDs speed is just a small buffer and how slow it gets from then on.

DirectStorage is appatently dead in water, too diverse hardware to actually implement into games to actually benefit from it - PC's are unfortunately not gaming consoles?

So why would ditching the small format M. 2 SSDs (let's say PCIe Gen 4, with small thermal requirements) to large PCIe Gen 5 add-in cards actually bring us, in terms of user experience? Any faster Windows or application startup times? Shorter game loading times? Actually noticeable speedups or just a bit shorter bars in benchmarking?

Is that really "the right idea about how to do PCIe Gen 5 NVMe SSDs" then?

 

[AusWolf]

To block your graphics card from all airflow just to attain storage speeds you're never gonna use. It's the right idea indeed!

Maybe in a file server, but in a home PC, definitely not!

 

[Wirko]

DirectStorage is appatently dead in water, too diverse hardware to actually implement into games to actually benefit from it - PC's are unfortunately not gaming consoles?

Not necessarily dead - but the notion that DS requires the fastest SSDs, Gen 5 at least, to show its advantages is quite dead by now.

 

[Bwaze]

Not necessarily dead - but the notion that DS requires the fastest SSDs, Gen 5 at least, to show its advantages is quite dead by now.

Yeah, no testing showed high difference between NVMe drives. Some testing actually showed that while DirectStorage title Forspoken loads faster with SSDs, it actually looses some FPS compared to HDD because it apparently uses GPU shaders for unpacking, and with HDD it does not!

Forspoken DirectStorage on test

Apparently it takes one minute instead of couple of seconds to load the scene on HDD, but when it does, it runs faster?

Issues like this prevent the widespread use, and apparently no one wants to be a Guinea pig with new untested features. So we have the hardware, we have all the underlaying support in OS, and game developers that don't want to use the features.

 

[Chrispy_]

passive cooled models are arriving this Christmas, so I don't see the point in buying these fan requiring models for the next 6 months

Yeah, first-gen hardware is often worth avoiding unless you really do need to be at the bleeding edge.

Hopefully, yes. But the fact that the Phison E26 is very power-voracious at low transfer speeds is not a good sign.

It's their first attempt at PCIe Gen5 and unlikely to be optimised for anything other than "being first to market" and "make numbers bigger!" to catch as much of the deep-pocketed disposable-income crowd who just want the best thing on the market, no matter the cost.

Power efficiency, manufacturing optimisations for lower-cost models, and all of the bugfixes, tweaks, and lessons learned will likely come in the next-gen at the earliest.

 

[Bwaze]

It also makes sense from sales point to first introduce inefficient, power hungry models, maybe even add a bug or two that would convince at least some early adopters to buy a second drive in the same generation, when the later, better models arrive?