AMD Designs Physically Smaller "Phoenix 2" Die with 6-core CPU and 4 CU iGPU

[btarunr]

AMD has designed a physically smaller version of its 4 nm "Phoenix" mobile processor silicon. The chip could power lower-end mobile SKUs in the Ryzen 3 and Ryzen 5 series, and it's likely that it could make it to Socket AM5, where it will power Ryzen 3 and lower-end versions of Ryzen 5 desktop processors. Built on the same 4 nm foundry process as the standard "Phoenix" silicon, the so-called "Phoenix 2" or "PHX2" die physically features a 6-core/12-thread CPU based on the "Zen 4" microarchitecture, and a physically smaller iGPU with just two WGPs (workgroup processors), or 4 CU (compute units), which work out to 256 stream processors. This iGPU is based on the same RDNA3 graphics architecture as the one powering the regular "Phoenix" silicon. At this point we don't know if the Ryzen AI component gets the axe, but given AMD's enthusiasm with consumer AI acceleration, the die might just retain it.

The PHX2 die likely retains the I/O of the regular "Phoenix," including a dual-channel (4 sub-channel) DDR5 and LPDDR5 memory interface, and a 24-lane PCI-Express Gen 4 root complex. These changes result in a die that appears to be around three-quarters the size of the regular "Phoenix," with an area of around 137 mm², compared to 178 mm² of the regular "Phoenix." The smaller die will save AMD big on costs and yields. At this time, there are at least two processor models reported to be based on this die, the Ryzen 5 7540U and Ryzen 3 7440U. Both are 15 W to 28 W class mobile processors aimed at thin-and-light notebooks.



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[Count von Schwalbe]

Can't wait for these to get to desktop and see how the SOC deals with high speed DDR5.

 

[AusWolf]

Can't wait for these to get to desktop and see how the SOC deals with high speed DDR5.

Are they coming to desktop, though? I mean, 6 cores + 4 CUs isn't far from the current 6/8-core + 2-CU desktop processors.

 

[btarunr]

Are they coming to desktop, though? I mean, 6 cores + 4 CUs isn't far from the current 6/8-core + 2-CU desktop processors.

An AM5 package with 137 mm2 monolithic die might just end up with a lower BOM than "Raphael" for lower sub-$200 processor SKUs.

 

[tabascosauz]

Are they coming to desktop, though? I mean, 6 cores + 4 CUs isn't far from the current 6/8-core + 2-CU desktop processors.

An AM5 package with 137 mm2 monolithic die might just end up with a lower BOM than "Raphael" for lower sub-$200 processor SKUs.

Would PHX2 desktop make sense though? An extra family of processors just to provide a few super budget SKUs? In the past few years AMD has just covered that segment by resurrecting old-ass Renoir parts. They aren't popular on desktop anyway. In terms of die size savings, Rembrandt broke the 200m^2 mark, but Phoenix is back to ~180mm^2 just like Cezanne. Not that huge.

Phoenix desktop is certainly coming, but like Renoir and Cezanne it will be bringing its 12CU iGPU (possibly cut down to 8 for a 6-core) as a main selling point. PHX2 with a 4CU iGPU offers performance that is barely any better than office-grade 2CU Raphael; just to match or slightly beat ancient Vega 8, you still need a 6CU RDNA2 unit.

On the mobile side however it fits nicely into a lineup where AMD for the last two generations has badly lacked any up-to-date low end parts due to rebranding Barcelo.

I have to check again, but I do not recall AMD boasting much about a new memory controller in Phoenix. That said, due to Rembrandt's absence on desktop we're still completely in the dark about what the monolithic DDR5 UMC can do. Yes, LPDDR5 is up to 7500 from 6400 now for some Phoenix designs, but that doesn't really provide any useful information given LPDDR5 is still slow as balls outside of pure bandwidth for iGPU gaming.

 

[Deeveo]

Would PHX2 desktop make sense though? An extra family of processors just to provide a few super budget SKUs? In the past few years AMD has just covered that segment by resurrecting old-ass Renoir parts. They aren't popular on desktop anyway. In terms of die size savings, Rembrandt broke the 200m^2 mark, but Phoenix is back to ~180mm^2 just like Cezanne. Not that huge.

Phoenix desktop is certainly coming, but like Renoir and Cezanne it will be bringing its 12CU iGPU (possibly cut down to 8 for a 6-core) as a main selling point. PHX2 with a 4CU iGPU offers performance that is barely any better than office-grade 2CU Raphael; just to match or slightly beat ancient Vega 8, you still need a 6CU RDNA2 unit.

On the mobile side however it fits nicely into a lineup where AMD for the last two generations has badly lacked any up-to-date low end parts due to rebranding Barcelo.

I have to check again, but I do not recall AMD boasting much about a new memory controller in Phoenix. That said, due to Rembrandt's absence on desktop we're still completely in the dark about what the monolithic DDR5 UMC can do. Yes, LPDDR5 is up to 7500 from 6400 now for some Phoenix designs, but that doesn't really provide any useful information given LPDDR5 is still slow as balls outside of pure bandwidth for gaming.

Maybe not for retail, but could make sense for OEM market.

 

[ixi]

Ryzen 3 and lower ends on AM5 desktop. No cabbages way. 50€, 100€ - yes please.

 

[david salsero]

I and many users that I read in professional forums are crazy to see the Zen 4 7040 Phoenix. Few OEMs have wanted to bet on this processor that is far superior to Intel. It's a shame we have to give up fewer CUs as many users find 12 CUs perfect for AAA gaming and 3D rendering, CAD, CAM without spending more money on a dGPU.
Just like many handheld consoles are coming out, why aren't the 13", 14" 15" ultrabooks coming out with Zen 4 Phoenix + RDNA 3???

 

[tabascosauz]

I and many users that I read in professional forums are crazy to see the Zen 4 7040 Phoenix. Few OEMs have wanted to bet on this processor that is far superior to Intel. It's a shame we have to give up fewer CUs as many users find 12 CUs perfect for AAA gaming and 3D rendering, CAD, CAM without spending more money on a dGPU.
Just like many handheld consoles are coming out, why aren't the 13", 14" 15" ultrabooks coming out with Zen 4 Phoenix + RDNA 3???

Like with every other generation I'm 95% sure AMD either never ensures enough availability, and/or ships late.

• Just look at T14 Gen 4 and X13 Gen 4 - announced months ago, 13th gen versions have been shipping for a while, but Phoenix is still nowhere to be found.
• Phoenix for Framework laptop is also super delayed, maybe even to next year.
• Z13 and Z16 Gen 2 still AWOL despite being months after being announced, and Gen 1 Rembrandt stock still isn't gone yet. And it's supposed to be the flagship AMD ultrabook.
• Zenbook 13 has some references here and there to a newer Phoenix refresh (ironically on the product page for the Rembrandt UM5302), but I haven't seen it yet. The 13th gen version is out already.

Only the -HS Phoenix seems to have actual availability in higher TDP gaming laptops like G14 2023, Blade 14, Flow X13, etc. So if you have the cash to splurge on a X13..........Rembrandt-U was also incredibly delayed almost to the point of pushing the laptops into the next year. So far no reason to think Phoenix will be any different.

AMD brought the compelling product, OEMs finally gave them the design wins, yet they're out here squandering it across the board with no supply.

But at the same time, you should already know from Rembrandt that with the money you are going to spend on a Rembrandt/Phoenix APU ultrabook, you may as well have gotten a Rembrandt/Phoenix gaming laptop with a dGPU. They aren't cheap. AMD made it clear that they think 12CU iGPU is a premium product.

Also kinda telling that all the expensive 2023 G14s come with Phoenix, except for the 4050 that is Rembrandt-R. Clearly, AMD wants you to think a certain way about Phoenix ($$$$). At least, if you get a G14 you still get a MUX so you can disable the dGPU all the time and still get comparable power draw/battery life, instead of wasting away waiting for Phoenix-U ultrabooks.

 

[Wirko]

There have been speculations (see wccf (or maybe rather not)) about AMD's hybrid chip with two Zen 4 and four Zen 4c cores, and this might just be that.

Honestly, I don't believe AMD woud ever take the hybrid route but we can't be sure. In desktops, workstations and servers - no, but those aren't the entire market, notebooks and handhelds exist too. And thanks to Alder Lake, issues related to scheduling are mostly solved by now in Windows.

 

[david salsero]

Like with every other generation I'm 95% sure AMD never ensures enough availability.

• Just look at T14 Gen 4 and X13 Gen 4 - announced months ago, 13th gen versions have been shipping for a while, but Phoenix is still nowhere to be found.
• Phoenix for Framework laptop is also super delayed, maybe even to next year.
• Z13 and Z16 Gen 2 still AWOL despite being months after being announced, and Gen 1 Rembrandt stock still isn't gone yet.
• Zenbook 13 has some references here and there to a newer Phoenix refresh (ironically on the product page for the Rembrandt Zenbook), but I haven't seen it yet. The 13th gen version is out already.

Only the -HS Phoenix seems to have actual availability in higher TDP laptops like G14 2023.

Rembrandt was also incredibly delayed almost to the point of pushing the laptops into the next year. In 2023 we should be all browsing Phoenix laptops, instead it's all Barcelo, Rembrandt and Rembrandt-R.

AMD brought the compelling product, OEMs finally gave them the design wins, yet they're out here squandering it across the board with no supply.

But at the same time, you should already know from Rembrandt that with the money you are going to spend on a Rembrandt/Phoenix APU ultrabook, you may as well have gotten a Rembrandt/Phoenix gaming laptop with a dGPU. They aren't cheap. AMD made it clear that they think 12CU iGPU is a premium product. There are no exceptions, except in handheld gaming devices.

True in everything you say.
I don't understand how AMD allows a product to be seen in stores for so long, but part of that fault lies with the OEMs or what many people think are briefcases in favor of Intel, because the same is not the case with processors of intel.
The 13th gen and AMD Phoenix came out at the same time late December early January and only intel ultrabooks are seen none of AMD ZEN 4 Phoenix.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Would PHX2 desktop make sense though? An extra family of processors just to provide a few super budget SKUs? In the past few years AMD has just covered that segment by resurrecting old-ass Renoir parts. They aren't popular on desktop anyway. In terms of die size savings, Rembrandt broke the 200m^2 mark, but Phoenix is back to ~180mm^2 just like Cezanne. Not that huge.

I think so. All of the low-end (R3 and Athlon) parts have been monolithic, besides the really old Zen+ 2300X and the (in)famous 3300X. Which means that they can't really be adapted to DDR5.

And now that you can get DDR5 for close to reasonable prices, I think AMD will release some more budget processors to assist with platform adoption as their stocks of AM4 processors deplete.

 

[_Flare]

AMD website shows only the 7440U uses the little Phoenix die as of now.
The 7540U is shown with the big Phoenix die.
The little Phoenix die could replace: 7330U (Pro) and maybe even the 7530U (Pro), both Zen3+Vega, PCIe3.0, DDR4, Socket FP6

 

[tabascosauz]

Which means that they can't really be adapted to DDR5.

I wouldn't be so sure. See Mendocino, a new product with horridly outdated 8MB L3 Zen 2 with what is clearly a new UMC (LPDDR5 support), released in Q3 2022 under Ryzen 7000 banner.

From the photo of the substrate, PHX2 looks like it could be pin-compatible with PHX, which would simplify adapting to AM5, but AMD also isn't one to care a great deal about the low end non-OEM desktop. 3300X supply, super delayed desktop release for all its modern APU generations, no Zen 3 quad instead resurrecting Renoir from the dead in 2022, the list goes on.........pretending to be AMD for a second, I would much rather focus on pushing out Phoenix AM5 first as a premium groundbreaking 12CU APU product than this half-assed 6-core 4CU little brother that lacks marketability outside of affordable laptops.

And now that you can get DDR5 for close to reasonable prices, I think AMD will release some more budget processors to assist with platform adoption as their stocks of AM4 processors deplete.

About the prospect of PHX2 desktop being more or less for OEMs only, of course (look at basically the entirety of the Renoir family on AM4), but it's a bit of a stretch to say they had meaningful impact or popularity at all, in the grand scheme of things. I doubt AM5 platform adoption is being driven by the ultra-low end......reflecting back on AM4 I don't think that was the case for AM4 either.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

I wouldn't be so sure. See Mendocino, a new product with horridly outdated 8MB L3 Zen 2 with what is clearly a new UMC (LPDDR5 support), released in Q3 2022 under Ryzen 7000 banner.

Yes, but it is also 6nm process - an entirely new design. I was just saying that they can't rebrand and repeat like AM4.

AMD also isn't one to care a great deal about the low end non-OEM desktop. 3300X supply, super delayed desktop release for all its modern APU generations, no Zen 3 quad instead resurrecting Renoir from the dead in 2022, the list goes on.........

.reflecting back on AM4 I don't think that was the case for AM4 either.

Agreed, but AM4 was being sold on raw performance near the end of its lifecycle, and there were plenty of 1700X and similar to serve the budget market. There was also little competition at the top, compared to now, and many old Skylake (and Sandy Bridge) machines looking for a compelling upgrade. Now is a different market, where those old machines are becoming obsolete for not only gaming, but slow in everyday usage as well, and incompatible with W11.

Now it is AM4 and i3's serving the budget market, and AMD is bringing Phoenix to desktop to resolve that. Remember, the 5600G was only 512sp, and a GCN5.1 at that. For scale, the Raphael IGP is ~60% of the 5600G in performance with 128sp RDNA2 - and this is double that of RDNA3.

Not premium, true, I will be the first to admit that. But even as an OEM part, I can't see how AMD can afford not to bring this to desktop. The browsing and office work market needs this kind of processor, and the laptop is by no means ubiquitous in that market.

 

[tabascosauz]

Yes, but it is also 6nm process - an entirely new design. I was just saying that they can't rebrand and repeat like AM4.

Agreed, but AM4 was being sold on raw performance near the end of its lifecycle, and there were plenty of 1700X and similar to serve the budget market. There was also little competition at the top, compared to now, and many old Skylake (and Sandy Bridge) machines looking for a compelling upgrade. Now is a different market, where those old machines are becoming obsolete for not only gaming, but slow in everyday usage as well, and incompatible with W11.

Now it is AM4 and i3's serving the budget market, and AMD is bringing Phoenix to desktop to resolve that. Remember, the 5600G was only 512sp, and a GCN5.1 at that. For scale, the Raphael IGP is ~60% of the 5600G in performance with 128sp RDNA2 - and this is double that of RDNA3.

Not premium, true, I will be the first to admit that. But even as an OEM part, I can't see how AMD can afford not to bring this to desktop. The browsing and office work market needs this kind of processor, and the laptop is by no means ubiquitous in that market.

That's not how iGPU performance works........5600G is a 448SP Vega 7 part. RDNA2 and RDNA3 iGPUs are not impressive in the slightest in their 2CU and 4CU forms. You need 660M (6CU) to match Vega 8 performance.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

5600G is a 448SP Vega 7 part

Was based on the info in the database, maybe I misread it.