Next-gen AM5 Motherboard Platforms Could Support USB4

[T0@st]

AMD's CEO Lisa Su is reported to be visiting a number of companies in Taiwan this week—one of her objectives seems to be getting next generation AM5 desktop platforms prepped with USB4 support. Hardware news site MyDrivers believes that Asmedia played host to Team Red's leader at some point—this is a significant development given that this Taiwanese company specializes in making motherboard chipsets and USB controllers, although Su has allegedly met with other competing firms. Asmedia is reported to be a market leader in terms of implementing the latest USB4 tech, with certification awarded by the USB-IF Association.

Prior leaks have implied that the two companies are already involved with each other on a separate project—their collective goal being Thunderbolt 4 support on next-gen AMD platforms. The timing of this trip to Taiwan suggests that forthcoming AM5 motherboards offering USB4 support could be lined up for launch next year, alongside the "Zen 5" Ryzen 8000 CPU series. Boards based on current gen A620, B650 and X670 chipsets could be refreshed with the latest USB connectivity standard.



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[TumbleGeorge]

The support is there because now, as you can see from the mobile implementation, it just doesn't have the desktop hardware installed on the board. Given the wishful tone of the news, it shouldn't be. The presence of USB4 is mandatory. I wouldn't buy an AM5 platform while it continues to be cut. A 10Gb/s internet controller, standard on all motherboards except those with the lowest budget class A720 "chipset", is also mandatory. We are not in the stone age, riding it with slow retro links.

 

[kapone32]

The only reason I want USB4 is for my SFF build I am going to use with the APU that comes out for desktop. That is only to add an EGPU just because I want to see it in action.

 

[A Computer Guy]

The support is there because now, as you can see from the mobile implementation, it just doesn't have the desktop hardware installed on the board. Given the wishful tone of the news, it shouldn't be. The presence of USB4 is mandatory. I wouldn't buy an AM5 platform while it continues to be cut. A 10Gb/s internet controller, standard on all motherboards except those with the lowest budget class A720 "chipset", is also mandatory. We are not in the stone age, riding it with slow retro links.

I have to say I was surprised with the abundance of USB2 ports when AM5 came out and the lack of advertised ECC support (compared to AM4) that I paused on getting one. I'll wait for AM5 refresh boards and see what they offer.

 

[kapone32]

I have to say I was surprised with the abundance of USB2 ports when AM5 came out and the lack of advertised ECC support (compared to AM4) that I paused on getting one. I'll wait for AM5 refresh boards and see what they offer.

Well the have ECC on AM5 already so you get one anyway lol.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Well the have ECC on AM5 already so you get one anyway lol.

(looking at ASRock boards in particular) I did see the QVL lists were starting to list the AM5 Pro cpu's which means the boards should be wired for it and AMD actually lists ECC support on the non-Pro CPU's but if the vendor (ASRock) isn't willing to advertise for it makes me question if the UEFI/BIOS is working properly yet.

 

[tabascosauz]

The only reason I want USB4 is for my SFF build I am going to use with the APU that comes out for desktop. That is only to add an EGPU just because I want to see it in action.

From current Rembrandt USB4 eGPU users, iirc there is still some hit to performance at 40Gbps. So unless you are down at the ~4L mark and can't fit one, dGPU probably still the way to go.

Still, if I upgrade to Phoenix this might be interesting, sharing an eGPU between my Lone L5 and my G14.

ITX boards being as expensive as they are should be a safe bet for USB4, but not so sure for budget mATX and ATX.

 

[ncrs]

I don't find this surprising given the fact that ASMedia developed or was heavily involved in the creation of AMD AM4 desktop chipsets. It's heavily implied (for example by the codename - Promontory 21, which was also used for AM4 variants) that they also designed the AM5 chipsets. It was reported here that ASMedia's delayed USB4 controller is nearing completion as well.

I think it's highly probable that the next generation AM5 chipsets will also utilize full PCIe 5.0 speed of the CPU<->chipset link which currently is limited to 4.0 on the chipset side while CPUs support 5.0:

(looking at ASRock boards in particular) I did see the QVL lists were starting to list the AM5 Pro cpu's which means the boards should be wired for it and AMD actually lists ECC support on the non-Pro CPU's but if the vendor (ASRock) isn't willing to advertise for it makes me question if the UEFI/BIOS is working properly yet.

They do list non-Pro CPUs with ECC memory for their professional boards, for example ASRock Rack B650D4U.
Maybe the consumer division doesn't want to eat into the professional sales by outright advertising ECC

 

[A Computer Guy]

I don't find this surprising given the fact that ASMedia developed or was heavily involved in the creation of AMD AM4 desktop chipsets. It's heavily implied (for example by the codename - Promontory 21, which was also used for AM4 variants) that they also designed the AM5 chipsets. It was reported here that ASMedia's delayed USB4 controller is nearing completion as well.

I think it's highly probable that the next generation AM5 chipsets will also utilize full PCIe 5.0 speed of the CPU<->chipset link which currently is limited to 4.0 on the chipset side while CPUs support 5.0:

They do list non-Pro CPUs with ECC memory for their professional boards, for example ASRock Rack B650D4U.
Maybe the consumer division doesn't want to eat into the professional sales by outright advertising ECC

Possibly but those boards often come with IMPI, and are meant for server cases, don't offer as much back panel I/O, lack overclocking features, and no RGB . On the flip side if that was the case then one might expect Pro cpu's not to be supported on consumer boards further guaranteeing the segmentation of sales.

 

[Assimilator]

The fact that AM5 shipped without baked-in USB4 support is one of the most pathetic things about an already anemic platform. I bet we'll get a grand total of 1 USB4 port and AMD will somehow find out a way to use this to justify cutting the number of PCIe lanes even further.

 

[thomasjpr]

Despite pretty widespread adoption of USB-C by peripherals, it's just amazing to me how glacially slow the uptake USB-C (USB4 and Thunderbolt) has been in the PC desktop world. I've got all of these lanes dedicated to PCIe 1x slots that I'm never going to use, yet only a single USB-C 3.1 port (itself using shared bandwidth via the chipset)? There's a whole world of fast external storage (SSDs, memory cards, RAID) that most desktop users have to jump through hoops to connect. Even Thunderbolt displays -- not that there are many -- offer some nice conveniences (especially if your machine is under a desk and not accessible.) Intel definitely has some blame here, but AMD and their weird chipset design decisions continue to baffle.

 

[persondb]

I have to say I was surprised with the abundance of USB2 ports when AM5 came out and the lack of advertised ECC support (compared to AM4) that I paused on getting one. I'll wait for AM5 refresh boards and see what they offer.

Keep in mind that you need one USB 2 link for each USB 3 or 4. As each USB 3 or 4 port also has a parallel USB 2 implementation( the D+ and D- wires), so yes, you do need quite a bit of them.

USB 2 is also really useful for connecting to a lot of stuff, think Embedded Controllers, Bluetooth and others that require a bit more speed but not too much while being a very ubiquitous standard that isn't too hard to implement.

 

[Deleted member 232534]

i assume this is utilizing controller into the cpu pcie4x4 lanes.

those graphics are very old, mid 2022

 

[LabRat 891]

Been hoping and looking for USB4 boards since X570.
I know there are/were other factors but, USB4 *not* being a part of AM5's base featureset made it feel like AM5-platform offered little real features over a choice X570/AM4 build. Especially, with so many AM5 boards desperately lacking expansion, AM5 looked like a step-backwards in some ways.

 

[Tek-Check]

The fact that AM5 shipped without baked-in USB4 support is one of the most pathetic things about an already anemic platform. I bet we'll get a grand total of 1 USB4 port and AMD will somehow find out a way to use this to justify cutting the number of PCIe lanes even further.

It's neither "pathetic" nor "anemic". Boards would have been even more expensive had they all shipped with USB4 ports. "Cutting the number of PCIe lanes..."? Zen4 CPUs provide four more usable lanes (x24 Gen5) than Raptor Lake CPUs (x16 Gen5+ x4 Gen4). There are more and faster PCIe lanes on Zen4 CPUs than on any desktop CPU in history, not counting workstation segment.

They needed to get core features right in the first place on AM5 before progressing with additional fast protocols and configurations. Integrated USB4 has been a trend in mobile space, as it was more needed there. Even Intel does not provide integrated Thunderbolt 4 on desktop chips. Arrow Lake CPUs might get it. Might!

Some refresh AM5 boards should finally get discrete USB4 support around New Year by installing AsMedia host controller ASM4242. Currently, half dozen AM5 boards host Thunderbolt 4 controller marketed as USB4 due to lower power for charging ports. So, 32 Gbps of PCIe data tunnelling is available now on AM5 for those who need it.

Another challenge is to get motherboard vendors to expose all CPU's capabilities to consumers, which they have not done consistently well. For example, Zen4 CPUs support DisplayPort 2.1 at 40 Gbps and HDMI 2.1 at 48 Gbps from iGPU, which have not been exposed by any vendor to full spec. Only Asrock offers HDMI 2.1 port with 32 Gbps bandwidth which is great. Vendors thought that DP 2.1 was not needed as there are no DP 2.1 monitors as yet. So, CPUs are often more capable than what motherboard are willing to offer. Also, only a few boards install 10GbE LAN port. AMD has nothing to do with this feature. It's motherboard vendors who segment some features.

Looking forward:
- Granite Rigde CPUs next year should get integrated USB4, just like Rembrandt and Phoenix APUs have, supporting two USB4 ports at 40 Gbps
- I am not sure whether 8000 CPUs will add any new lanes, apart from USB4 controller for two ports; perhaps another four lanes for the chipset link
- X770 and B750 chipsets should finally get at least x8 Gen4 chipset link
- Promontory chipset needs to upgrade chipset link to minimum x8 Gen4, in line with what Z790 offers; so four more Gen4 lanes
- iGPU ports need to be faster to serve better monitors, so DP 2.1 at 40 Gbps and HDMI 2.1 at minimum 40 Gbps
- more boards with 10GbE network port
- WiFi7 module on halo boards (no rumours currently that this is being developed, so RZ616 module is the best available, which is fine; I have it on mini-PC)
- better cable management by moving some ports at the back of motherboard
- more capable front USB-C ports, i.e. route one display port from iGPU and PCIe data, in addition to USB and power; perhaps one of USB4 ports should be the front port so that we do not need to connect external PCIe storage and displays to rear I/O at all times or via docks/hubs?

The presence of USB4 is mandatory. I wouldn't buy an AM5 platform while it continues to be cut. A 10Gb/s internet controller, standard on all motherboards except those with the lowest budget class A720 "chipset", is also mandatory. We are not in the stone age, riding it with slow retro links.

It's too much for most users. While I agree with your reasons as to why I would not buy AM5 platform in its current, unpolished offering, most users will not need all those features on all boards. I'd say:
- one USB4 port is mandatory on all Extreme boards
- 10GbE network port mandatory on all Extreme boards
Making more features mandatory on entire line of boards will just make boards even more expensive, which is what we do not want to see. We already have Gen5 M.2 port mandatory on three chipsets and almost no one in the world has made a meaningful use of it, apart from a few enthusiasts and early adopters.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

The boards are already more expensive, and quite significantly so, than their predecessors, without offering enough to justify the upgrade. I do not agree that the mass production and implementation of the described inputs, which are no longer completely new, would be unbearably expensive. So far it may have been, precisely because few of them were produced and they were put into halo models to milk the rich customers as much as possible. Just wait for Realtek to finally get it up to speed and Marvel will swallow water.

 

[Tek-Check]

Despite pretty widespread adoption of USB-C by peripherals, it's just amazing to me how glacially slow the uptake USB-C (USB4 and Thunderbolt) has been in the PC desktop world

This is true, but the question is how widespread is good enough for you or needed by consumers. There is no widespread need for those ports on desktop in the same way as there is more urgent need for 5 and 10 GbE internet ports. You can buy today around 20 boards with Thunderbolt 4/USB4 ports if you need those. I bought the first ever B550 board with two TB4 ports over two years ago - Pro Art from Asus.

Delay is more due to long development cycle for USB4 host controller from AsMedia. Nobody else, apart from Intel, does it. Texas Instruments do not develop this chip and I have not heard that RealTek does it either. RealTek does develop hub controller RTS5490.

The boards are already more expensive, and quite significantly so, than their predecessors, without offering enough to justify the upgrade. I do not agree that the mass production and implementation of the described inputs, which are no longer completely new, would be unbearably expensive. So far it may have been, precisely because few of them were produced and they were put into halo models to milk the rich customers as much as possible. Just wait for Realtek to finally get it up to speed and Marvel will swallow water.

Intel sells TB4 contollers for $10, plus work on implementation and you get a board $20-30 more expensive. The same applies to 10GbE controller from Marvell. I agree that those chips have been used for milking.

RealTek did show hub controller for USB4 during Computex, but they do not seem to work on host controller at the moment. I am disappointed that Texas Instruments or Parade Tech. do not develop USB4 host chips. Competition is minimal. It looks like features have been divided mostly by two companies in duopoly mode.

Been hoping and looking for USB4 boards since X570.
I know there are/were other factors but, USB4 *not* being a part of AM5's base featureset made it feel like AM5-platform offered little real features over a choice X570/AM4 build. Especially, with so many AM5 boards desperately lacking expansion, AM5 looked like a step-backwards in some ways.

AMD relied on AsMedia to develop USB4 host controller, but it has been delayed over one year and not ready for AM5 launch. We now know some reasons. Intel did not submit all details about Thunderbolt inner working to USB-IF and AsMedia spent more time ironing out all protocols, plus running those protocols with tunnelled PCIe Gen4, which was uncharted territory, as TB runs over PCIe Gen3.

AsMedia did not even manage to get DP 2.1 to run in Alt Mode at 40 Gbps in this new chip ASM4242. This shows how challenging it has been.

i assume this is utilizing controller into the cpu pcie4x4 lanes.
those graphics are very old, mid 2022

Those are old diagrams from Angstronomics, when they did not know that AM5 platform supports PCIe 5.0 and that ASM4242 USB4 chip was going to be delayed for multiple reasons.

Diagrams below are more accurate.

 

[Skylinestar]

We are not in the stone age, riding it with slow retro links.

Despite pretty widespread adoption of USB-C by peripherals, it's just amazing to me how glacially slow the uptake USB-C (USB4 and Thunderbolt) has been in the PC desktop world.

Yet a huge majority of phones with USB-C are on USB 2.0

 

[Mussels]

I was surprised they didnt already, when they had a laptop generation that DID support it

Yet a huge majority of phones with USB-C are on USB 2.0

many are USB 3.0, but they ship with USB 2.0 cables

Samsungs S series are all 5Gb/s, while their budget A series are usually USB 2.0

 

[chrcoluk]

If the boards gave decent pcie slot connectivity, it wouldnt be such a big deal, just install an asmedia usb4 addon card. This is the downside of cannibalising pcie slots.

 

[SirEpicWin]

Am I missing something here?
The asus rog crosshair x670e already have USB4 ports in it's specs

ROG CROSSHAIR X670E EXTREME | Gaming motherboards｜ROG - Republic of Gamers｜ROG Global

Designed for the broadest range of demanding fans, the ROG Crosshair X670E Extreme features 20 + 2 power stages, DDR5 support, five M.2 slots, ROG Gen-Z.2, a USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 front-panel connector with Quick Charge 4+ Support, dual USB4®, PCIe® 5.0 and onboard Wi-Fi 6E.

rog.asus.com

 

[kondamin]

I don’t really see the point for it on the consumer space other than maybe a high resolution display.
kinda like pcie5

 

[Chaitanya]

there are quite a few current X670 boards that do come with USB 4 ports, even on laptops it seems the support is quite iffy at best right now.

 

[Metroid]

The issue is price, am5 boards are very expensive because boards makers added useless things that increased the price, somebody told them to make light versions and thankgod some will release light versions.

 

[JoeTheDestroyer]

*yawn* 99% of my external connection needs are served by usb2. I have no use for usb4.