Dolphin Emulator Dev Comments on Steam Removal Controversy

[GoldenX]

" We don't think that this incident should change anyone's view of either company."

nice politically correct thing to state but personally I think less of Valve as a result, here you have an absolute juggernaut of a company with long standig ties to PC gaming and the whole community around it.
Heck some of the best selling games of all time came from community made mods.... and they not only cowered before bully Nintendo, they basically asked for it before any problem from the bully company.....

yeah makes me believe Valve is a lot more suits now then anything else, the Valve we grew up with, the Valve that earned our respect is long gone, just about maximum profit now.

It's amazing how scared the industry is of Nintendo. It's not just Valve, some big hardware companies are too.
Meanwhile, we at yuzu just keep at it.

 

[Gooigi's Ex]

Offended by what? You really need to project less.

LMAO I’m projecting but says the man with multiple comments about the subject at hand. Pot meet kettle moment.

 

[mechtech]

While I do understand Nintendo position and rights........................

Where is does sucks if one has a big stack of game cube discs but the console is broken, and emu is not allowed, then they are up the creek and out all that money and left with a coaster collection

 

[R-T-B]

I think we all know that law is selectively applied with regards to online: memes, like "surprised Pikachu" obviously violate trademark and copyright laws but everyone turns a blind eye to it.

Not really, "Fair Use" is actually very defined and cut and dry. What he did falls under fair use.

see ROCm, an obvious copy of NVidia's copyrighted CUDA. But as long as AMD didn't use any NVidia code, its perfectly legal to copy the behavior of other people's code

Technically this only exists because NVIDIA lets it, they could sue if the Oracle lawsuits over API usage are anything to base it on.

Google vs Oracle is the biggest case and still fresh on my mind. Is Google allowed to build its own Java-emulator (aka: Android / Dalvik) to run Java code, even though Java is copyrighted by Oracle / Sun? Well, duh. Copyright doesn't protect against copying behavior, as long as Google rebuilt the Dalvik virtual machine from scratch (meaning it will have its own inconsistencies and quirks against the official, original Java virtual machine), then they're in the clear. Because copyrights can't and shouldn't protect against behaviors.

That's literally the opposite of what the final ruling determined, IIRC. The final ruling was tl;dr "APIs are copyrightable"

 

[Camm]

Not sure why people are brigading for Nintendo here.

The reality is Ninty would absolutely have sued many of these projects into the ground if it thought it could. The fact it hasn't says alot.

On the flipside, Dolphin refusing to engage it also makes sense, the US legal system is expensive, and you only engage if you have the funds to do so. Dolphin does not.

 

[evernessince]

Copyright of the key itself isn't the issue here; it's that the key allows Nintendo's copyright protection of its games to be circumvented.

The emulator is using the key the same way any Wii console would. Hence why it's called an emulator.

If someone can point to a part of the code that circumvents protections put in place by Nintendo, please do. Otherwise I fail to see how emulating the Wii as faithfully as possible constitutes a breach of Nintendo's rights. Would people prefer if they had provided a cracked key instead?

Not sure why people are brigading for Nintendo here.

The reality is Ninty would absolutely have sued many of these projects into the ground if it thought it could. The fact it hasn't says alot.

On the flipside, Dolphin refusing to engage it also makes sense, the US legal system is expensive, and you only engage if you have the funds to do so. Dolphin does not.

It's definitely not worth fighting it. Simply look at the Smash Pro community if you want to see how much Nintendo is willing to screw over it's own fans. I can only imagine what they would do just to spite someone they actually dislike.

 

[LabRat 891]

Ooooh! Spicy!

Seems like every few months I get yet another reason to consider Nintendo a non-entity. Thankfully, they don't cross-license technology and games very often. -keeps things easier to avoid.

 

[Denver]

The whole system of laws in most cases is one big - unnecessary - pile of interpretive rubbish. How can a law be fair if it depends on the interpretation or opinion of the one who is judging.

Dolphin has been here for more than a decade, just because the emulator of the "defunct consoles" appeared on Steam, Nintendo's dirty hand decided to act.

 

[evernessince]

The whole system of laws in most cases is one big - unnecessary - pile of interpretive rubbish. How can a law be fair if it depends on the interpretation or opinion of the one who is judging.

Dolphin has been here for more than a decade, just because the emulator of the "defunct consoles" appeared on Steam, Nintendo's dirty hand decided to act.

It depends on how the law is written, some laws are more ambiguous while others are not. A certain level of ambiguity is need as not every law can be laser focused on a specific thing. Certain laws need to be flexible to address a subject that is wide or ever changing.

Unless it is a new law, judges should defer to stare decisis. It is this deferment to stare decisis that enables a large level of stability in the legal system, as deferment to precedent ensures an consistent and even application of the law.

Technically you aren't wrong that Nintendo should have taken action if it believed it's rights were being infringed. That they didn't would weaken any case they brought before a court.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Well that blew up, huh?

Right? Like, really, who could have EVER seen THAT one coming?
/s Almost everyone did...

As for Nintendo, this incident just continues their existing(completely moronic and meritless) stance towards emulation.

That statement needed a bit of help.

 

[dragontamer5788]

That's literally the opposite of what the final ruling determined, IIRC. The final ruling was tl;dr "APIs are copyrightable"

I didn't realize how many appeals this case went through. I guess its good to double-check upon the final status before running my mouth off, lol.

 

[lexluthermiester]

The final ruling was tl;dr "APIs are copyrightable"

API's are code. Cryptographic key strings are not.

I didn't realize how many appeals this case went through. I guess its good to double-check upon the final status before running my mouth off, lol.

Trust me, you can easily be forgiven for missing things in such a complicated case.

 

[Deleted member 185088]

This is overblown, Dolphin is available freely for Windows, Mac, Xbox, you can easily download it without having to have an extra software on your PC and enjoy.

 

[Bomby569]

They f'd up, it happens.
Nintendo went to protect what's theirs, seems normal.

Honestly it all seems normal at my end. And do mind, i ocassionaly pirated stuff so i'm not on Nintendo's side.

 

[Dr. Dro]

This is overblown, Dolphin is available freely for Windows, Mac, Xbox, you can easily download it without having to have an extra software on your PC and enjoy.

The idea of emulator distribution on Steam is to bring the application to more users and I would argue primarily to facilitate its usage on the Steam Deck. It's a really popular device, at least in markets where Valve bothered making it available. The other devices like the GPDs and the ROG Ally run Windows, so that makes things easier. Speaking of which, ASUS has such impeccable timing, just as I decided to upgrade my PC they release the Ally here... hehe its a crime for me to complain after the treat I just gave myself

They f'd up, it happens.
Nintendo went to protect what's theirs, seems normal.

Honestly it all seems normal at my end. And do mind, i ocassionaly pirated stuff so i'm not on Nintendo's side.

IMHO the biggest problem with copyright law today is that it does not discern between casual piracy (i.e. kid that downloads an mp3) and infringement with the intent of capitalize on a third party's intellectual property - with the preservation of "obsolete" mediums (often amazing restoration projects that culminate in a supreme, archival-quality release of a partially or completely lost work) and continued access to media that is no longer available in any manner due to market or technological concerns caught in the crossfire, I sincerely believe that a reform in both patent, trademark and copyright law is long overdue.

Patent trolling is a plague upon mankind. Can you imagine how powerful and innovative CPUs would be today if there wasn't a duopoly due to x86 patents, or how many lives could be saved if more than one company could make any given medicine after say, 5 years? Oh it's gotta fund R&D? Not like that problem wouldn't take care of itself through the sheer force of market. Boo-hoo.

 

[Bomby569]

IMHO the biggest problem with copyright law today is that it does not discern between casual piracy (i.e. kid that downloads an mp3) and infringement with the intent of capitalize on a third party's intellectual property - with the preservation of "obsolete" mediums (often amazing restoration projects that culminate in a supreme, archival-quality release of a partially or completely lost work) and continued access to media that is no longer available in any manner due to market or technological concerns caught in the crossfire, I sincerely believe that a reform in both patent, trademark and copyright law is long overdue.

Patent trolling is a plague upon mankind. Can you imagine how powerful and innovative CPUs would be today if there wasn't a duopoly due to x86 patents, or how many lives could be saved if more than one company could make any given medicine after say, 5 years? Oh it's gotta fund R&D? Not like that problem wouldn't take care of itself through the sheer force of market. Boo-hoo.

Things should go to public domain faster, especially if you are doing nothing with it.

The alice games are a good example, EA doesn't care and doesn't want to let the original developers revive it. Nintendo has a back catalogue of games that no one can even buy anymore. This is stupid. Games are literally dying.

I found on reddit this tv show that flopped so bad they just removed it from the platform for good, so now no one can watch it but pirates.

It's even worst, copyright law makes companies have to go after someone even if they don't care to, because if they don't they can lose the IP. It's absurd,

Things are broken

 

[lemonadesoda]

It's even worst, copyright law makes companies have to go after someone even if they don't care to, because if they don't they can lose the IP. It's absurd,

Came here to say the same thing. Unfortunately, Nintendo has to actively defend in order to protect all their IP. Because if they didn't, it puts at risk all their IP of similar age/heritage, and you can understand they want to protect other items. All items in the IP portfolio have to be actively defended lest you lose entitlement to the whole portfolio under the legal precedent "they didn't defend X so therefore IP of Y lapses". It's doopid, but that's copyright laws for you.

Dolphin could get round this by having a piece of IP protector software built into their code. e.g. check for Wii CD, not allow ISOs. (And let someone ELSE do the noCD crack)

 

[Assimilator]

LMAO I’m projecting but says the man with multiple comments about the subject at hand. Pot meet kettle moment.

Apparently having multiple comments on a topic means I'm offended by it, WHO KNEW? I'm sure your Nobel Prize nomination is gonna be in the post soon.

Not sure why people are brigading for Nintendo here.

Nobody is brigading for Nintendo. We're simply pointing and laughing at the Dolphin devs for lacking the mental capability to realise that megacorporations will act to protect their IP when they feel it is sufficiently threatened. You can kick the hornet's nest a few times and not get stung, but if you stick your entire stupid head inside it don't expect to walk away unscathed... and apparently the Dolphin devs did. F**k around and find out, as they say.

The reality is Ninty would absolutely have sued many of these projects into the ground if it thought it could. The fact it hasn't says alot.

Please reread my previous post regarding cost/benefit analysis.

If someone can point to a part of the code that circumvents protections put in place by Nintendo, please do.

How about, IDK, the part of the code that uses that key to make copy-protected GameCube/Wii games playable? Without which Dolphin is nothing?

 

[Dristun]

The problem is we can't know if they (ninty) really have a standing in this case, because nobody went to court. Sure, Dolphin guys were naive to say the least to think that Nintendo will sleep but also they just don't have the cash to defend, like many others in past history of modding, fan-games and so on. What we need to find out is a crazy billionaire to fund #TeamEmulation and see what they get, haha. Maybe they'll rekt the entire emulation scene or maybe ninty finally get their comeuppance.

 

[Kyan]

I really recommend everybody to watch this video, it's really well writen and goes back in history to understand why nintendo is like this with it's property. I think it's a part of the understanding behind the dolphin on steam controversy. Nintendo are more willing to protect their public image/character/game than protecting their hardware once they are hacked.

 

[lemonadesoda]

@Kyan , got a slightly more focused version of that video? It really drags and takes 10 mins to say what could be said in 3. I gave up because it was just too slow.

 

[Kyan]

@Kyan , got a slightly more focused version of that video? It really drags and takes 10 mins to say what could be said in 3. I gave up because it was just too slow.

I don't know if anybody have covered the subject in another form. I've watch it some month ago so i don't really remember when does it get slow. I've watch it without any problem.

I've just notice that he made a video about the dolphin-steam-nintendo case

 

[skizzo]

How about, IDK, the part of the code that uses that key to make copy-protected GameCube/Wii games playable? Without which Dolphin is nothing?

it only decrypts Wii games. if the key was removed GameCube games would be not impacted and continue to work as is.

 

[evernessince]

How about, IDK, the part of the code that uses that key to make copy-protected GameCube/Wii games playable? Without which Dolphin is nothing?

The key makes games playable because copy protection is still in place. If the emulator was circumventing copy protection, what need is there for the key? None. Saying using the key is circumventing copy protection is backwards, using the key means copy protection is in fact still in place.

The real Wii also uses that key to unlock the encryption to play games. Again the emulator is emulating the original console.

 

[PapaTaipei]

Nintendo is trash