Report: Qualcomm Forces OEMs to Use Its Own PMICs for Oryon SoC

[AleksandarK]

According to SemiAccurate, Qualcomm is currently navigating through many challenges with its Oryon SoC for laptops. The current problem is that Qualcomm is insisting on integrating its own PMICs (Power Management Integrated Circuits), which are inherently designed for cell phones, causing significant compatibility and efficiency issues. This approach is reported to have led to escalated costs and disagreements with OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers), seemingly hindering Qualcomm's foothold in the laptop sector. These PMICs are highlighted as unsuitable and highly priced, requiring the adoption of high-density interconnect (HDI) PCBs engineered explicitly for cell phones, thus not designed to meet the current requirements of laptops optimally. The subsequent spike in production costs has ignited conflicts with OEMs, with several contemplating withdrawing from the project.

In response to the rising tensions, Qualcomm is allegedly providing financial compensation to the OEMs, potentially leading to selling SoCs at cost. The only good thing is the reported success of Nuvia-based Oryon SoC. The silicon is perfect at A0 stepping, and performance is reportedly good. However, power usage and efficiency are still in question. Forcing OEMs to use proprietary PMICs will likely have far-reaching impacts on Qualcomm's market strategies and relationships with OEMs. With disputes like this, we expect that Qualcomm-powered laptops are nearing availability, and we could see them in the coming months.



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[Ferrum Master]

What's so bad forcing not to use cheap PoS boards?

 

[PilleniusMC]

What's so bad forcing not to use cheap PoS boards?

PMICs are kinda important when it comes to delivering power, and when you're forced to basically use the wrong ones for the applications it leads to issues.

 

[Ferrum Master]

PMICs are kinda important when it comes to delivering power, and when you're forced to basically use the wrong ones for the applications it leads to issues.

It ain't wrong. They force to use better PCB tech.

Basically are you telling that PMU's that QUALCOMM offers... like millions of mobile devices use now... somehow ain't suitable for a laptop... the catch is about PCB costs...

I agree that you have to force quality to achieve desired performance, energy savings to compete with Mac, that's the point using an ARM based laptop. Those OEMs just want to create another shit performing Chromebook style e-waste.

 

[randomUser]

Yes, i am having hard time understanding the problem OEMs are talking about.
I mean, if power delivery was designed for phones, it must be very efficient and very compact.

I can understand the point of price being higher, but i don't understand what are they talking about when they mention efficiency.

there is a chance they want RTX titan in their laptops and so power delivery designed for phones can't do 1kW. Is that what they are whining about?

 

[TheLostSwede]

Yes, i am having hard time understanding the problem OEMs are talking about.
I mean, if power delivery was designed for phones, it must be very efficient and very compact.

I can understand the point of price being higher, but i don't understand what are they talking about when they mention efficiency.

there is a chance they want RTX titan in their laptops and so power delivery designed for phones can't do 1kW. Is that what they are whining about?

See the link below for an explanation.

HDI - High Density Interconnect PCBs

IPC-2226 defines HDI as a printed circuit board with a higher wiring density per unit area than conventional PCBs. See our technical spec.

www.ncabgroup.com

 

[persondb]

Yes, i am having hard time understanding the problem OEMs are talking about.
I mean, if power delivery was designed for phones, it must be very efficient and very compact.

Likely different efficiency curve. Phones spend the vast majority of time in a relatively idle state(i.e. just navigating the web or light tasks).
Laptops however, will spend considerably more power just by being on. So the PMICs likely aren't designed for those kind of loads.

They might also have issues with maximum load that a laptop can have, which is far higher than that of a phone and that could necessitate more equipments, power stages and etc.

 

[Wirko]

The dispute is about the PMIC that delivers power to the SOC, is that correct? Are OEMs free to use chips of their choosing for memory, flash, interfaces, whatever exists at all in those laptops?

requiring the adoption of high-density interconnect (HDI) PCBs engineered explicitly for cell phones

This sounds like QC could put the same PMIC chips/modules in a different package, one that's usable in normal laptop PCBs, and thus resolve the issue.

 

[Ferrum Master]

WRONG THREAD

 

[TheLostSwede]

The dispute is about the PMIC that delivers power to the SOC, is that correct? Are OEMs free to use chips of their choosing for memory, flash, interfaces, whatever exists at all in those laptops?

Yes, same on desktop motherboards and even many other Arm based platforms.
That said, MTK. STMicro and Rockchip are example of other Arm chip makers that produce their own PMICs that pair with their own SoCs.

This sounds like QC could put the same PMIC chips/modules in a different package, one that's usable in normal laptop PCBs, and thus resolve the issue.

Could, but won't, due to cost for Qualcomm. It's easier to let their partners eat the cost.

 

[Wirko]

WRONG THREAD

You got me scratching my head, your post about smaller vs. larger MOSFETs sounded very much related to what I wrote just before about smaller vs. larger PMICs.

 

[TechLurker]

Could, but won't, due to cost for Qualcomm. It's easier to let their partners eat the cost.

If the report that Qualcomm is now either paying OEMs the difference or selling them at a possible loss, is true all in order to offset the teething costs, then Qualcomm isn't really letting their partners eat the cost. They are, in the hopes that their partners would make it work somehow and give Qualcomm a much-needed in to the laptop market.

In fact, I suspect at this point Qualcomm is hoping for the latter, that some OEMs figure out a way to make it work well for laptop usage, instead of them having to do it themselves. Problem is, OEMs might pull out if it doesn't seem financially viable sooner than later. Moreso when such things should have already been ironed out by Qualcomm.

 

[Ferrum Master]

You got me scratching my head, your post about smaller vs. larger MOSFETs sounded very much related to what I wrote just before about smaller vs. larger PMICs.

Sorry... I had multiple tabs open and replied and it put the reply in the wrong thread :/.

In fact, I suspect at this point Qualcomm is hoping for the latter, that some OEMs figure out a way to make it work well for laptop usage, instead of them having to do it themselves. Problem is, OEMs might pull out if it doesn't seem financially viable sooner than later. Moreso when such things should have already been ironed out by Qualcomm.

Well... I see the tech in both realms as an official. Laptops are like medieval things compared to phones often... with few exceptions... and Macs...

For example first generation 5G phones used stacked PCB approach and some still does. There is absolutely no reason laptops cannot use hybrid approach and use small areas of advanced PCBs combined with larger areas for dumber devices... it just looks like blackmail. Qualcomm is only afraid to end up with that silicon in warehouses, because the OEM's act like princeses. In Phone market there ain't such things, because the competition is more fierce, some will not complain, make a product and sell it, while others will look in the ceiling and scratch their testicles.

Regarding the PMU power capabilities, there are breed like gaming phones, using the same PMU's, those eat around 15-25W+ while loaded... like Genshin impact or emulators etc... if you think that that PMU ain't enough even for ARM laptop, I dunno... IMHO it is acutally for the battery life... it must suffice for weeks, if you need raw power take x86... that's the whole point imho. We do not need any halfarsed ARM devices at Raspberry Pi 4 performance and Pentium III power consumption figures. You can buy those already.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

For example first generation 5G phones used stacked PCB approach and some still does. There is absolutely no reason laptops cannot use hybrid approach and use small areas of advanced PCBs combined with larger areas for dumber devices... it just looks like blackmail.

there's a pretty good reason they dont. Cost. Stacked PCBs are harder to make, more expensive to make, and in something the size of a laptop totally pointless.

Regarding the PMU power capabilities, there are breed like gaming phones, using the same PMU's, those eat around 15-25W+ while loaded... like Genshin impact or emulators etc... if you think that that PMU ain't enough even for ARM laptop, I dunno... IMHO it is acutally for the battery life... it must suffice for weeks, if you need raw power take x86... that's the whole point imho. We do not need any halfarsed ARM devices at Raspberry Pi 4 performance and Pentium III power consumption figures. You can buy those already.

What kind of reasoning is this? ARM devices cant be allowed to se their full power for long periods because that is what x86 is for? Utterly ridiculous. If I want a powerful ARM laptop that can run full throttle at "pentium III power levels", then why can I not select such a product?

 

[Ferrum Master]

there's a pretty good reason they dont. Cost. Stacked PCBs are harder to make, more expensive to make, and in something the size of a laptop totally pointless.

What kind of reasoning is this? ARM devices cant be allowed to se their full power for long periods because that is what x86 is for? Utterly ridiculous. If I want a powerful ARM laptop that can run full throttle at "pentium III power levels", then why can I not select such a product?

I picked the name carefully as PIII were around 33W...

It depends on the sweet spot. Your ambitions is to drive full throttle, yet having no speed... like in cars... more mpg does not mean more speed. ARM is designed to be more efficient and thus I would pick it as device for great battery life. You don't need more to watch YT etc, all your care is less charging and more productivity. ARM is for that.

And Stacked PCB is harder to make? From what place you took the argument? Considering it has been done for ages... I mean... like since ever, because PCBs done on porcelain were like the mother of all? As soon you have PCB layout for another component... it totally doesn't matter what it is? Another PCB or tequila shot soldered on some pads?