AMD Zen 5 Microarchitecture Referenced in Leaked Slides

[atomsymbol]

And that's why we must thank AMD for the competition.

Just a note: In the 1990-ties, x86 wasn't a duopoly. There were multiple companies designing and producing x86-compatible CPUs. AMD&Intel are both responsible for the fact that in year 2023 the x86 CPU market is a duopoly. The x86 duopoly is, in my opinion, an environment with a somewhat restricted competitiveness.

 

[ratirt]

Just a note: Intel increased IPC in year 1989 by approximately 100% when going from i386 (internal architecture: CISC) to i486 (internal architecture: RISC-like in case of simple x86 instructions such as ADD; MOV reg,reg; etc): https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/46766

Yeah and that was how many years ago? I'm pretty sure it is harder now with IPC increases so a 100% increase would be a miracle nowadays. BTW I had one of those the 386SX but I would not dare bringing that up. Increase of 50Mhz or something was already 50% (or was it a 100%???) faster than the predecessor. Try now 50%.

I just said 10-15% IPC increase doesn't give you a reason to upgrade. I never said I wanted to. Back in the days, you could game on a 2600K for a decade. One could cry for no innovation, but I think it was great value.

I thought it was an argument about it is not a good increase in IPC. Sometimes you have to speak your mind fully.
With more IPC per gen, games are getting more demanding for CPUs.
A the 2600K. Once upon a time there was this CPU that could run every game.

 

[AusWolf]

I thought it was an argument about it is not a good increase in IPC. Sometimes you have to speak your mind fully.
With more IPC per gen, games are getting more demanding for CPUs.
A the 2600K. Once upon a time there was this CPU that could run every game.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Sorry.

There were times when you looked at a new hardware release, and you were so amazed that you had to buy straight away. Hardware was also a lot cheaper back then. Those days are over. People (myself included) should learn to buy only when they need to, and not expect every new release to blow our minds. We live in different times, we should adapt.

 

[ratirt]

Just a note: In the 1990-ties, x86 wasn't a duopoly. There were multiple companies designing and producing x86-compatible CPUs. AMD&Intel are both responsible for the fact that in year 2023 the x86 CPU market is a duopoly. The x86 duopoly is, in my opinion, an environment with a somewhat restricted competitiveness.

Wasn't? responsible? They have advanced CPUs manufacturing and they have had the most ideas for the CPUs. Maybe these two where the only two remained since those companies had ideas how to advance the CPU market the most.
AMD was initially producing Intel's licensed CPUs due to FABS they had since Intel could not cope with the demand. It was years after 386 and 486 when AMD started producing AMD's own CPU chips.

 

[atomsymbol]

Wasn't? responsible? They have advanced CPUs manufacturing and they have had the most ideas for the CPUs. Maybe these two where the only two remained since those companies had ideas how to advance the CPU market the most.
AMD was initially producing Intel's licensed CPUs due to FABS they had since Intel could not cope with the demand. It was years after 386 and 486 when AMD started producing AMD's own CPU chips.

It does not matter that much how the AMD-Intel duopoly became to exist. It does matter that entry of a 3rd x86 competitor into the x86 market is very complicated mainly because of x86 licensing issues, and to a lesser extent because of design issues or manufacturing issues. ---- Is there an ARM or RISC-V chiplet in a Zen CPU package? RISC-V is more-or-less being forced to design complete RISC-V systems with motherboards to sell RISC-V CPUs because the x86 ecosystem is dominated by unwelcoming companies - instead of being allowed to use AMD's or Intel's existing infrastructure to put RISC-V cores besides x86 cores on AM4/5 or LGA1700 motherboards, or being welcomed to replace all x86 cores with RISC-V cores in an AM4/5 or LGA1700 CPU. A similar argument applies to x86 notebook CPUs.

 

[ratirt]

It does not matter that much how the AMD-Intel duopoly became to exist. It does matter that entry of a 3rd x86 competitor into the x86 market is very complicated mainly because of x86 licensing issues, and to a lesser extent because of design issues or manufacturing issues. ---- Is there an ARM or RISC-V chiplet in a Zen CPU package? RISC-V is more-or-less being forced to design complete RISC-V systems with motherboards to sell RISC-V CPUs because the x86 ecosystem is dominated by unwelcoming companies - instead of being allowed to use AMD's or Intel's existing infrastructure to put RISC-V cores besides x86 cores on AM4/5 or LGA1700 motherboards, or being welcomed to replace all x86 cores with RISC-V cores in an AM4/5 or LGA1700 CPU. A similar argument applies to x86 notebook CPUs.

It does matter very to know the history so that you see the bigger picture. The licensing and such was not invented yesterday you know. You blame the companies for holding the license? There are a lot of companies that still hold the x86 license and can manufacture and create x86 chips. Problem is, not takers to join the x86 market. You cant blame companies that are good at something and within time they are the last to stand. Risc and arm are different on every aspect and comparing those two architecture is a bad idea. We do not have duopoly BTW. there are 3 companies producing x86 chips at the moment.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

there are 3 companies producing x86 chips at the moment.

Hmm, in my country shops has not hardware from the 3rd company, only from two of them.

 

[AusWolf]

Hmm, in my country shops has not hardware from the 3rd company, only from two of them.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (it's Zhaoxin).

 

[ratirt]

Hmm, in my country shops has not hardware from the 3rd company, only from two of them.

you know why that is? Because it is F...ing hard to get through and you are up against the best in the industry Intel and AMD which have grown so much and have such an experience in CPUs it is hard to wrap your mind around it. That is why nobody takes the companies with x86 license because these companies will end up like Zhaoxin (if they are lucky). Zhaoxin is not bad but is decades behind Intel and AMD. So if anyone wants to say duopoly is bad or something like that? These people literally don't understand how we got to that point and what it means to be the best. When you look over in the history of x86 CPUs it should have been obvious. For some reason it isn't.

 

[atomsymbol]

That is why nobody takes the companies with x86 license because these companies will end up like Zhaoxin (if they are lucky). Zhaoxin is not bad but is decades behind Intel and AMD.

CPU manufacturing is unrelated to (decoupled from) CPU architecture. Are you claiming that Zhaoxin chose (free will) not to use a 5nm manufacturing process - or are you claiming that Zhaoxin was forced not to use a 5nm manufacturing process? The sentence cited above is obviously false, because if a CPU architecture company which uses x86-emulation (binary translation) to run i386/amd64 code (without an x86 license, like Zhaoxin) has access to a high-end manufacturing process then it will end up like Tachyum. In summary: The sooner Zhaoxin gets access to a 5nm manufacturing process and is allowed to sell its CPUs in the EU and the US, the better.

 

[ratirt]

CPU manufacturing is unrelated to (decoupled from) CPU architecture. Are you claiming that Zhaoxin chose (free will) not to use a 5nm manufacturing process - or are you claiming that Zhaoxin was forced not to use a 5nm manufacturing process? The sentence cited above is obviously false, because if a CPU architecture company which uses x86-emulation (binary translation) to run i386/amd64 code (without an x86 license, like Zhaoxin) has access to a high-end manufacturing process then it will end up like Tachyum. In summary: The sooner Zhaoxin gets access to a 5nm manufacturing process and is allowed to sell its CPUs in the EU and the US, the better.

Listen. First of all you were wrong stating duopoly of CPUs and here you have Zhaoxin. Then you stated that there is only the 2 companies hold the x86 license and I know (aside the 3 mentioned) there is more companies that have the license for x86 processors. Then you said you can't buy Zhaoxin where you live and now you state this?
BTW, if CPU manufacturing is unrelated, why on Earth you bring it up? Zhaoxin uses resources they have in China according to their business idea (replace foreign hardware and software from China and that includes manufacturing)(That is why Taiwan is under pressure from China btw.). Has anyone forced NV to use 8nm Samsung for Ampere? If it is not manufacturing then stop bringing it up as an argument. Even if they did manage the 5nm, I sincerely think that it would still not match Intel nor AMD in performance. Why it is not in the UK US market? well think about, why. I think you can get that one since I have already gave you an idea about it. Zhaoxin is VIA's subsidiary which means Zhaoxin can produce x86 chips using VIA's licensing.
With the Joint Venture, any company that would be willing to take on the CPU market could do it. I don't see any except China (for obvious reasons which I have given you)

 

[csendesmark]

As far as Zen 5 is concerned, given the list of improvements, a 10% increase in IPC seems rather low. Zen 4 didn't do as many changes and still managed an average of 13%.

I understand that new technology is costly, mostly because of R&D, but with time the prices shall come down.

 

[atomsymbol]

Listen.

None of your posts provide information that would be news to be. What exactly is your prediction for the next 10 years? China taking Taiwan by force and seizing advanced CPU manufacturing equipment before it is shipped to Japan?

 

[csendesmark]

I hope, they will finally increase the PCIe lane count to 40+

 

[AnotherReader]

I understand that new technology is costly, mostly because of R&D, but with time the prices shall come down.

That's right, but it take a few years for prices to come down. Take the 28 nm node as an example. It debuted at over $5000 per wafer in late 2011 which is about $6800 today. Today everyone talks about its current price of nearly $3000 when comparing to current nodes which is a mistake as it ignores the fact that it debuted at a high price. AMD's graph seems to be based off the prices of the node at the time the first AMD GPU or CPU launched on that node.

 

[atomsymbol]

I hope, they will finally increase the PCIe lane count to 40+

It is unlikely. The current strategy (increasing PCIe lanes by 0-4 when a new CPU socket is introduced; current desktop market segmentation: AM5 vs WRX8; etc) works well in the market.

 

[ratirt]

None of your posts provide information that would be news to be. What exactly is your prediction for the next 10 years? China taking Taiwan by force and seizing advanced CPU manufacturing equipment before it is shipped to Japan?

As of now, I have no idea what you really want and trying to prove here. We live in a century where influence of more powerful country on a less military capable is so obvious nowadays and the urge for power is so obvious and the influence one spreads on the nations across the world. I don't have a prediction I'm just surprised people can't connect two ends together.

 

[atomsymbol]

As of now, I have no idea what you really want and trying to prove here. We live in a century where influence of more powerful country on a less military capable is so obvious nowadays and the urge for power is so obvious and the influence one spreads on the nations across the world. I don't have a prediction I'm just surprised people can't connect two ends together.

Your mind isn't the only one on Earth (unless you believe that the philosophical term solipsism is the only reality).

 

[ratirt]

Your mind isn't the only one on Earth (unless you believe that the philosophical term solipsism is the only reality).

Great, and yet you say I state things you already know. Moving on to next chapter.

 

[atomsymbol]

yet you say I state things you already know.

"I saying you state things I already know" in this discussion at TechPowerup isn't a contradiction, because what you wrote is a very small subset of what you know and of what I know.

 

[ratirt]

Your mind isn't the only one on Earth

"I saying you state things I already know" in this discussion at TechPowerup isn't a contradiction, because what you wrote is a very small subset of what you know and of what I know.

Sarcasm from my side. You must have missed it.

 

[atomsymbol]

Sarcasm from my side.

Ok, we are cool then.

From Google: "We cool or we're cool" means we are not enemies, we don't have beef or show hostility toward each other.

 

[csendesmark]

It is unlikely. The current strategy (increasing PCIe lanes by 0-4 when a new CPU socket is introduced; current desktop market segmentation: AM5 vs WRX8; etc) works well in the market.

A better chip on the mainboard could help us, technologically we don't need to have a new socket for more lanes.

 

[ratirt]

Ok, we are cool then.

From Google: "We cool or we're cool" means we are not enemies, we don't have beef or show hostility toward each other.

That was uncalled for and impolite from your side honestly.

I assume this is AM5 CPUs. Maybe I will retire my own 5800x at some point. 15% up from Zen4 and I got zen3 so the uplift will be substantial.

 

[atomsymbol]

That was uncalled for and impolite from your side honestly.

Ok. Then we are enemies. It is your choice.