MSI Readies ATX12VO-ready AMD Socket AM5 Motherboard, and its First ATX12VO PSU

[atomek]

Great move from MSI. This will be my upcoming build, with reduced idle power and complexity. I like that there are two DIMMs only for better stabililty and mATX/ITX is ideal for my case.

 

[jonnyGURU]

You are underestimating how much 12VO simplifies the PSU design and the number of things that can go wrong on a system. 12VO turns the PSU into glorified laptop power brick, and all the complexity of dealing with lower voltages goes to the motherboard. You won't need a seasonic PSU for stability if all it gives you is a single 12V line.

Any decent PSU made in the last 15 years is basically a 12V PSU with a small DC to DC card added for the +3.3V and +5V.

It's best to understand computer PSUs and the 12VO spec before making such statements. The new spec only removes that DC to DC card, moving it to the motherboard. This part is correct. But the +12V performance is still as important. Also, there is still standby power, which the spec has changed to +12VSB instead of +5VSB. Furthermore, the ATX12VO spec has added I_PSU%. This feature actually reports the load of the PSU back to the motherboard so it can understand if a simultaneous load on the CPU and GPU will cause the PSU to operate at the precipice of its capabilities and throttle the CPU or GPU accordingly to avoid shut down. This is a cost adder, but on the flip side it will mean people don't' have to buy 1000W PSUs for 750W systems to "brute force" the assurance that their PC won't shut down mid game, or whatever else they're doing with their PC that is CPU and GPU intensive.

Circuit diagram for I_PSU%:

The reason you need "a quality power supply" is because loading the 12V power line, destabilizes the 3.3V and 5V and causes system problems.

That is only true with mag-amp regulated, or "group regulated" PSUs, which was the norm maybe 20 years ago and not something any enthusiast user would use today or over the last 15 years. As stated before, quality PSUs today are already +12V PSUs. They just have a small DC to DC card that regulates the minor rails. Honestly, no offense, but I wonder when the last time you read a PSU review was.

If all you use throughout the system is 12V and all of it is behind a switching VRMs, you can brownout down to 8V and the system will still be standing and working normally. Any laptop power brick can handle that. In fact, there is a reason laptops never have problems with PSU stabilities. Its exactly because they are using a single voltage, and every power plane on the motherboard is behind a VRM. In fact, when laptops are switching between a power brick and the battery, the main voltage plane loses 2-3V, and the laptop is still ok.

Yeah.... so.... a laptop has a battery that acts as sort of a "bulk cap", so bad analogy there. The PSU cannot "brownout" to 8V with expectations for the PC to continue running. Again, not much changes on the board with ATX12VO versus today.

As you can see, +12V regulation is still required for CPU VR, which is where it's most critical today and still will be in the future in most boards without super robust VRs, and the PCIe slots, including any CEM power connections. What changes is chipset VRM, USB, Audio, LAN, etc. will need to regulate from 12V instead of 5V and 3.3V. This includes M.2 which uses 3.3V. And any additional SATA's will require an additional VRM to regulate 12V down to 5V. This is actually the only cost adder to the motherboard since it's a new VRM. All of the other VRMs are just being "replaced" by one that regulates from either +5V or +3.3V to whatever voltage the end components actually needs (1.06V, 1.1V, 1.8V, etc.)

Seasonic makes ASUS branded PSU's.

Seasonic makes "a couple" Asus PSUs. The Thor Platinum and the lower wattage Strix Gold.

Loki SFX is Great Wall, higher wattage Strix Gold are CWT. The TUF Gaming Bronze and Gold are also Great Wall. The Thor Titanium is Wentai.

Despite what Reddit tells you, Seasonic makes very few non-Seasonic-branded PSUs.

 

[Redwoodz]

I can't believe some would trust a simple psu manufacturer and over a motherboard manufacturer. If anything I get more assurance everything will work like it's designed to.

 

[Folterknecht]

You are underestimating how much 12VO simplifies the PSU design and the number of things that can go wrong on a system. 12VO turns the PSU into glorified laptop power brick, and all the complexity of dealing with lower voltages goes to the motherboard. You won't need a seasonic PSU for stability if all it gives you is a single 12V line.

The reason you need "a quality power supply" is because loading the 12V power line, destabilizes the 3.3V and 5V and causes system problems.

If all you use throughout the system is 12V and all of it is behind a switching VRMs, you can brownout down to 8V and the system will still be standing and working normally. Any laptop power brick can handle that. In fact, there is a reason laptops never have problems with PSU stabilities. Its exactly because they are using a single voltage, and every power plane on the motherboard is behind a VRM. In fact, when laptops are switching between a power brick and the battery, the main voltage plane loses 2-3V, and the laptop is still ok.

With this change, the PSU quality discussion will go out the window. You will literally get 1200W platinum PSUs for 50-80$ instead of 250$.

The technical details weren't even the point I was trying to make.

Everyone who followed the PC DIY scene for a few years, knows that the big brands loving nothing more than to cut corners and upsell RGB-bling. I mean fuck it, they cut Diagnostic LED (Post Code) out of every motherboard below 300€ on AM5 (B650 and up) and you have to pay 200€ on the Intel side atm - a board (ECS) I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.. And thats a feature that reduces the number of RMAs and maybe costs them 50 cent per board.

 

[ArcanisGK507]

I don't know if I'm wrong, but in the end all the components of a PC should be under the same voltage, be it 12V or 5V, then add connections based on the expected consumption of the board and the components... 1, 2, 3... .and bring everything to a single electrical standard and it would be the most convenient for the digital ecosystem...

 

[Folterknecht]

I don't know if I'm wrong, but in the end all the components of a PC should be under the same voltage, be it 12V or 5V, then add connections based on the expected consumption of the board and the components... 1, 2, 3... .and bring everything to a single electrical standard and it would be the most convenient for the digital ecosystem...

Doesn't work that way - you need "transformers" for the specific needs of single components.

The german pc tech community has the same word for cheap crappy PSUs as for fireworks:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

 

[jonnyGURU]

Doesn't work that way - you need "transformers" for the specific needs of single components.

Maybe "lost in translation", but you don't need a "transformer" to buck or boost DC to DC.

I don't know if I'm wrong, but in the end all the components of a PC should be under the same voltage, be it 12V or 5V, then add connections based on the expected consumption of the board and the components... 1, 2, 3... .and bring everything to a single electrical standard and it would be the most convenient for the digital ecosystem...

As I said before; that's what happens today, for the most part. Everything on your motherboard already has some sort of DC to DC buck converter. All they're doing with this ATX12VO standard is saying the motherboard is bucking only the +12V instead of the +12V >>OR<< the +5V >>OR<< the +3.3V. The only thing added is that the motherboard will now be responsible for power to SATA devices.

 

[Jism]

And what doe you replace on most laptop boards? Right the VRM because they pop left, right middle and center because they take the cheapest crap and put it on. The same will happen to the boards, and it will kill your CPU, GPU and so on. Remember my words. The industry is not built around reliability for customers anymore. That period is sadly long gone, and a good and reliable PSU company will step in and replace your parts if the PSU failed horribly (had this with be quiet). Companies like MSI, Gigabyte and Asus are avoiding it like hell and will blame the customer.

Oh boy...

You clearly have not bin paying attention that VRM's blowing up is a thing from the past. Since Am4 boards have bin rock solid and even 40$ board can carry a high end 5950X and even in OC'ed status.

There's 50W of power to be saved even in IDLE. You no longer have the losses of that 3.3V / 5V thing.

 

[Folterknecht]

Maybe "lost in translation", but you don't need a "transformer" to buck or boost DC to DC.

English isn't my 1st language and I don't have a degree or an education in electronics relatet. What I meant is the first step AC->DC and after that you have to "step down" to different voltages, relatet to

ArcanisGK507​

post relevant would be the "step down" to the different voltages needed by different components.

 

[jonnyGURU]

English isn't my 1st language and I don't have a degree or an education in electronics relatet. What I meant is the first step AC->DC and after that you have to "step down" to different voltages, relatet to

ArcanisGK507​

post relevant would be the "step down" to the different voltages needed by different components.

You would need a transformer in an AC to DC power supply. Not DC to DC.

When ArkanisGK507 was implying everything should run on the same voltage, I'm pretty sure he wasn't implying we use 12V or 5VAC mains, or run 230VAC directly to components in the PC.

 

[Dr. Dro]

I personally don't care much (or at all) for ATX12VO, the one change we arguably needed (and even then) was the 16-pin "12VHPWR" or "2x6" connector, because running 3-4 8-pin PCIe cables to our monster GPUs was getting real silly real fast, and we saw what happened if a standard was rushed out (not saying that 12VO was, I recall reading about it years ago with zero traction, but alas).

But the fact that this comes to and is primarily targeted at the very budget end (usually what the mass market of small-time system builders/integrators and OEMs use), it's clearly not anything we should be too concerned about, at least for now.

 

[trsttte]

And I hope that never gains traction. I 'd rather pay a few bucks more for a Seasonic, FSP or even Corsair PSU, than leave that area to the likes of ASUS and Gigabyte.

They're already doing most of it, your CPU doesn't run on 12V, or 5 or 3.3 even, it runs somewhere around 1.2V that get converted from a 12V source. If they can do reliable 1.2V multi phase converters at 200W and dealing stupid currents they'll be fine doing simple 3.3/5v low power and low current ones (or rather buying single package solutions) for the few peripherals that need them - only USB and m.2's really.

I don't know if I'm wrong, but in the end all the components of a PC should be under the same voltage, be it 12V or 5V, then add connections based on the expected consumption of the board and the components... 1, 2, 3... .and bring everything to a single electrical standard and it would be the most convenient for the digital ecosystem...

5V is the wrong voltage for that as you'd loose a bit of power on the cables from the higher current. Even 12V is not great but the adoption of ATX12VO is being slow enough already without also changing the main voltage in use (a jump to 24v would be ideal)

But that's basically what's happening, almost everything already runs at 12V, only a handfull of things need 5V and 3.3V like USB and m.2 SSD. Even ram is running at 12V with DDR5 with the conversion to ~1V being done on the module (well... servers are, desktops are using 5V but same difference)

 

[Crackong]

12VO is a standard mainly geared towards system integrators, not DIY consumers.
System integrators had total control over their system design, how many headers are needed, max supported drives...etc.
So they can easily design the motherboard and cover those features and reuse the same PSU they have mass produced and had a million units in stock.

This approach works completely against DIY consumers,
as there could be no 'extra header' on the motherboard.
So the consumer would have to replace the motherboard, and might encounter other difficulties (like re-using the windows install after the motherboard swap)
just for a few extra power headers.
Which is extremely NOT consumer-friendly, and awful for the DIY market.

 

[jonnyGURU]

This approach works completely against DIY consumers,
as there could be no 'extra header' on the motherboard.

What "extra header' do you need on the motherboard that isn't on this MSI board?

An ATX 12VO can have just as many features as any ATX motherboard.

Don't confuse the proprietary garbage from Dell and Lenovo with ATX12VO. It's not the same.

 

[trsttte]

12VO is a standard mainly geared towards system integrators, not DIY consumers.
System integrators had total control over their system design, how many headers are needed, max supported drives...etc.
So they can easily design the motherboard and cover those features and reuse the same PSU they have mass produced and had a million units in stock.

Wrong, integrators already do that with or without ATX12VO - i.e. dell with their custom motherboards. ATX12VO hopefully will help make those custom designs closer to actual standards - i.e. instead of Dell using their own custom 12V power supply and molex connector they can use one that respects an existing standard

This approach works completely against DIY consumers,
as there could be no 'extra header' on the motherboard.
So the consumer would have to replace the motherboard, and might encounter other difficulties (like re-using the windows install after the motherboard swap)
just for a few extra power headers.
Which is extremely NOT consumer-friendly, and awful for the DIY market.

How so? It doesn't change anything, you'll have the same connectors as you had previously. The only difference is that instead of sending obsolete 5v and 3.3v power to the motherboard (and peripherals like hard disks and so on) it doesn't. The motherboard still has or has not the same connections as before. Most peripherals don't use 5/3.3v anymore anyway - if you're picking up older stuff you'll need and can use cheap power converters anyway, they're more likely to be incompatible because of the end of PATA and regular PCI then because of lack of 5/3.3v

 

[R-T-B]

Most peripherals don't use 5/3.3v anymore anyway

m.2 says hello.

 

[Crackong]

What "extra header' do you need on the motherboard that isn't on this MSI board?
An ATX 12VO can have just as many features as any ATX motherboard.
Don't confuse the proprietary garbage from Dell and Lenovo with ATX12VO. It's not the same.

What if the user decided to plug a HBA card and connects to 16 (or more) SATA drives ?
It used to be a simple swap of PSU (or branching off from PSU's molex) , now where you can give me 16 (or more) SATA power headers without switching the motherboard ?

Wrong, integrators already do that with or without ATX12VO - i.e. dell with their custom motherboards. ATX12VO hopefully will help make those custom designs closer to actual standards - i.e. instead of Dell using their own custom 12V power supply and molex connector they can use one that respects an existing standard

Yes, SI do 12V only anyway.
And No, It is Intel's hope of making the current SI's individual 12V only standards into their Intel standard.
That's why the 12VO is heavily advertised.
In fact you can clearly see in the news, that MSI motherboard is so barebone and clearly marketed towards OEM/ODM.
These products are not intended for DIY consumer in the first place.

How so? It doesn't change anything, you'll have the same connectors as you had previously. The only difference is that instead of sending obsolete 5v and 3.3v power to the motherboard (and peripherals like hard disks and so on) it doesn't. The motherboard still has or has not the same connections as before. Most peripherals don't use 5/3.3v anymore anyway - if you're picking up older stuff you'll need and can use cheap power converters anyway, they're more likely to be incompatible because of the end of PATA and regular PCI then because of lack of 5/3.3v

You will have the same connectors, but their number and capabilities are now limited by your motherboard
Which is very painful to diagnose and swap on troubleshooting.
And for power related issue you will now have to diagnose / swap TWO components instead of ONE.
This only favors SI since they have tons of identical components in stock.

 

[jonnyGURU]

What if the user decided to plug a HBA card and connects to 16 (or more) SATA drives ?
It used to be a simple swap of PSU (or branching off from PSU's molex) , now where you can give me 16 (or more) SATA power headers without switching the motherboard ?

16 SATA drives is a corner case. Not a typical DIY PC. If you're building a file server, you build a file server. ATX12VO is not slated to replace the existing ATX12V, EPS12V or any other existing standard. If you're building almost any other type of P (Personal) C (Computer), you won't be impacted. ATX12VO is made to make PCs easier to build and more power efficient.

So now I must exit as this thread had descended into the quagmire of who is the greatest example of Dunning Kruger for the day where the average TPU reader is smarter than anyone at Intel, MSI or any PSU manufacturer.

Peace and love...

 

[Crackong]

ATX12VO is made to make PCs easier to build and more power efficient.

The only 'easier to build' part is just the 10-pin plug instead of a 24-pin plug.
Which is cosmetic, but introduces another failure point to the power related issues, and you need to swap more parts when things happens.
You still have to plug and connect every other power cables, nothing is saved here.

It maybe a reasonable change when the ' Cost of pre-installed wiring on the PSU ' could be a major cost saving point, i.e. the System integrators.
SI tend to save every penny and skip every single part they could for cost savings.
But it is not applicable for DIY, since they have to include the complete set of cables with the motherboard, and you still, have to plug them all in.
It is no time saving, nor cost saving, for the DIY market.


Power efficient, yes, but since almost every above-average PSUs are 12V only + a DC to DC,
The only thing they've saved up is the energy lost within the wire length from PSU to the motherboard.
Which is also next-to-nothing for DIY market, but heavily concerned in the SI space (Because of the EU regulations of idle power)

16 SATA drives is a corner case. Not a typical DIY PC. If you're building a file server, you build a file server.

And I think one of the essence of DIY PC is re-purposing old hardware into something else.
By going Intel ATX12VO, some of your PC's expansion capabilities are permanently lost.
Not recoverable without a motherboard and PSU swap.

 

[Aleksandar_038]

You are underestimating how much 12VO simplifies the PSU design and the number of things that can go wrong on a system. 12VO turns the PSU into glorified laptop power brick, and all the complexity of dealing with lower voltages goes to the motherboard. You won't need a seasonic PSU for stability if all it gives you is a single 12V line.

The reason you need "a quality power supply" is because loading the 12V power line, destabilizes the 3.3V and 5V and causes system problems.

If all you use throughout the system is 12V and all of it is behind a switching VRMs, you can brownout down to 8V and the system will still be standing and working normally. Any laptop power brick can handle that. In fact, there is a reason laptops never have problems with PSU stabilities. Its exactly because they are using a single voltage, and every power plane on the motherboard is behind a VRM. In fact, when laptops are switching between a power brick and the battery, the main voltage plane loses 2-3V, and the laptop is still ok.

With this change, the PSU quality discussion will go out the window. You will literally get 1200W platinum PSUs for 50-80$ instead of 250$.

All that is fine, but the motherboard will get even more expensive and complex - and they are already too expensive and too complex. Moving so much to single point of failure is not good from any engineer standpoint...


PSUs will be cheaper, but motherboards will cover that with ease

 

[Dragokar]

Oh boy...

You clearly have not bin paying attention that VRM's blowing up is a thing from the past. Since Am4 boards have bin rock solid and even 40$ board can carry a high end 5950X and even in OC'ed status.

There's 50W of power to be saved even in IDLE. You no longer have the losses of that 3.3V / 5V thing.

Yeah, but ATX12VO will bring it back, remember my words and by the way it is not that uncommon. You just don't see it that much on consumer DIY boards, but on PLENTY of laptop boards and GPUs. I know that cause IO worked with that kind of stupid “quality” and brand trust.....

 

[vandaminator]

Finally some evolution on the ATX. Since you can build a computer without SATA drives, ATX12VO is welcome to PC

 

[Intervention]

Any decent PSU made in the last 15 years is basically a 12V PSU with a small DC to DC card added for the +3.3V and +5V.

It's best to understand computer PSUs and the 12VO spec before making such statements. The new spec only removes that DC to DC card, moving it to the motherboard. This part is correct. But the +12V performance is still as important. Also, there is still standby power, which the spec has changed to +12VSB instead of +5VSB. Furthermore, the ATX12VO spec has added I_PSU%. This feature actually reports the load of the PSU back to the motherboard so it can understand if a simultaneous load on the CPU and GPU will cause the PSU to operate at the precipice of its capabilities and throttle the CPU or GPU accordingly to avoid shut down. This is a cost adder, but on the flip side it will mean people don't' have to buy 1000W PSUs for 750W systems to "brute force" the assurance that their PC won't shut down mid game, or whatever else they're doing with their PC that is CPU and GPU intensive.

Circuit diagram for I_PSU%:
View attachment 326996


That is only true with mag-amp regulated, or "group regulated" PSUs, which was the norm maybe 20 years ago and not something any enthusiast user would use today or over the last 15 years. As stated before, quality PSUs today are already +12V PSUs. They just have a small DC to DC card that regulates the minor rails. Honestly, no offense, but I wonder when the last time you read a PSU review was.


Yeah.... so.... a laptop has a battery that acts as sort of a "bulk cap", so bad analogy there. The PSU cannot "brownout" to 8V with expectations for the PC to continue running. Again, not much changes on the board with ATX12VO versus today.

View attachment 326997
As you can see, +12V regulation is still required for CPU VR, which is where it's most critical today and still will be in the future in most boards without super robust VRs, and the PCIe slots, including any CEM power connections. What changes is chipset VRM, USB, Audio, LAN, etc. will need to regulate from 12V instead of 5V and 3.3V. This includes M.2 which uses 3.3V. And any additional SATA's will require an additional VRM to regulate 12V down to 5V. This is actually the only cost adder to the motherboard since it's a new VRM. All of the other VRMs are just being "replaced" by one that regulates from either +5V or +3.3V to whatever voltage the end components actually needs (1.06V, 1.1V, 1.8V, etc.)


Seasonic makes "a couple" Asus PSUs. The Thor Platinum and the lower wattage Strix Gold.

Loki SFX is Great Wall, higher wattage Strix Gold are CWT. The TUF Gaming Bronze and Gold are also Great Wall. The Thor Titanium is Wentai.

Despite what Reddit tells you, Seasonic makes very few non-Seasonic-branded PSUs.

Cheers man! Thanks for the information. Respect!