• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

NVIDIA's nForce 780i Delayed Until December Due to Penryn Issues

JacKz5o

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
477 (0.07/day)
Location
New Jersey
Processor Intel Q6600 @ 3.2GHz
Motherboard XFX nForce 780i
Cooling Ultra 120 eXtreme (lapped)
Memory 4GB G.Skill PC2-8000 PQ
Video Card(s) eVGA GeForce 9800GTX
Storage 640GB + 250GB + 2x500GB (external)
Display(s) Samsung 216BW 21.6"
Case CoolerMaster Cosmos S
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic
Power Supply PC Power & Cooling 750W Silencer
Software Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit
The NVIDIA nForce 780i chipset has been reported for having issues with Intel's Penryn processors. The exact issues remain unknown but the chipset will be delayed an additional two months and will not expected until December. NordicHardware also reports that the nForce 780i might possibly be the same as the nForce 680i with an additional PCIe bridge chipset and identical performance. However, we all hope the 780i will be much more than its predecessor.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
179 (0.03/day)
System Name My last amd rig for now i love my new i7
Processor Amd fx-9590
Motherboard ASROCK Fatal1ty 990fx pro
Cooling liquid
Memory G. Skill Ripjaw ddr3 1600 x32gb
Video Card(s) Dual AMD XFX 7990
Storage Samsung 840 pro
Display(s) asus
Case Dell 1520 c2d@2.6 4gb ddr2 667 8600m gt 500gb 7200rpm hitachi
Audio Device(s) Asus ROG g60J I7@2.8 8gb ddr3
Power Supply Antec 1200w
Software windows 7 x64
i hope thats not true. I would much rather have seen a bomb ass chipset over a new 8800 gpu comeone nvidia get your s*** straight. if its tru im gonna switch to amd there new chipset is lookin initially like its going to be bomb
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
3,282 (0.44/day)
Location
Sunny California
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte Aorus X870E Elite
Cooling Asus Ryujin II 360 EVA Edition
Memory 4x16GBs DDR5 6000MHz Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX 4090 AMP Extreme Airo
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro OS - 4TB Nextorage G Series Games - 8TBs WD Black Storage
Display(s) LG C2 OLED 42" 4K 120Hz HDR G-Sync enabled TV
Case Asus ROG Helios EVA Edition
Audio Device(s) Denon AVR-S910W - 7.1 Klipsch Dolby ATMOS Speaker Setup - Audeze Maxwell
Power Supply beQuiet Straight Power 12 1500W
Mouse Asus ROG Keris EVA Edition - Asus ROG Scabbard II EVA Edition
Keyboard Asus ROG Strix Scope EVA Edition
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey VR
Software Windows 11 Pro 64bit
I was waiting for the November 12 release date to update my PC, seeing that the 128SP 8800GT rumors are false, but now I'll have to wait till December, what a disappointment :(
 
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.20/day)
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
I was waiting for the November 12 release date to update my PC, seeing that the 128SP 8800GT rumors are false, but now I'll have to wait till December, what a disappointment :(

thats actually the new 8800gts ...
 
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.20/day)
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
i hope thats not true. I would much rather have seen a bomb ass chipset over a new 8800 gpu comeone nvidia get your s*** straight. if its tru im gonna switch to amd there new chipset is lookin initially like its going to be bomb

business is business ... which one had more money or potential for losing money riding on it?
 

WarEagleAU

Bird of Prey
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
10,812 (1.61/day)
Location
Gurley, AL
System Name Pandemic 2020
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 "Gen 2" 2600X
Motherboard AsRock X470 Killer Promontory
Cooling CoolerMaster 240 RGB Master Cooler (Newegg Eggxpert)
Memory 32 GB Geil EVO Portenza DDR4 3200 MHz
Video Card(s) ASUS Radeon RX 580 DirectX 12 DUAL-RX580-O8G 8GB 256-Bit GDDR5 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video C
Storage WD 250 M.2, Corsair P500 M.2, OCZ Trion 500, WD Black 1TB, Assorted others.
Display(s) ASUS MG24UQ Gaming Monitor - 23.6" 4K UHD (3840x2160) , IPS, Adaptive Sync, DisplayWidget
Case Fractal Define R6 C
Audio Device(s) Realtek 5.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair RMX 850 Platinum PSU (Newegg Eggxpert)
Mouse Razer Death Adder
Keyboard Corsair K95 Mechanical & Corsair K65 Wired, Wireless, Bluetooth)
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
Too bad this is happening. But someone use to mention on here how many chipsets intel flies through when they introduce new chips. Perhaps, if they didnt introduce so many chipsets, issues like these wouldnt be present.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
179 (0.03/day)
System Name My last amd rig for now i love my new i7
Processor Amd fx-9590
Motherboard ASROCK Fatal1ty 990fx pro
Cooling liquid
Memory G. Skill Ripjaw ddr3 1600 x32gb
Video Card(s) Dual AMD XFX 7990
Storage Samsung 840 pro
Display(s) asus
Case Dell 1520 c2d@2.6 4gb ddr2 667 8600m gt 500gb 7200rpm hitachi
Audio Device(s) Asus ROG g60J I7@2.8 8gb ddr3
Power Supply Antec 1200w
Software windows 7 x64
i know amd as we know it is based on how good the new chipset is new proc and gpu do and the chipset looks tight im just disapointed in nvidia they have had over a year to r&d a new chipset and we will see soon (now two months damnit) but if there are minimal performace gains and features over them 680 i will be very disapointed. back in the day going from like nforce3 to 4 was huge big performance gains ddr2 support (intel only) sli and a just a super solid reliable fast chipset but we havent seen as much of it lately thats just how i feel.
 

b1lk1

New Member
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
688 (0.10/day)
Location
Ontario, Canada
System Name Money pit
Processor Q2Q Q8300
Motherboard ASUS P5E3 deluxe WIFI AP@N
Cooling 120.2/Swiftech655/Apogee GT/DD Fillport & res
Memory OCZ PC3-1333MHZ 2X1GB/Kingston HYPERX PC3-1325MHz
Video Card(s) Sapphire HD4830
Storage Seagate 7200.11 1TB
Display(s) Dell 2209WA
Case some crap 5 year old generic modded case
Audio Device(s) X-FI fagtality
Power Supply PC P&C 510W
Software Vista Premium 64
What a shock. The 680i was crap and the 780i is looking to pick up where it left off...........
 

zekrahminator

McLovin
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
9,066 (1.32/day)
Location
My house.
Processor AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane @ 2.8GHz (224x12.5, 1.425V)
Motherboard Gigabyte sumthin-or-another, it's got an nForce 430
Cooling Dual 120mm case fans front/rear, Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro, Zalman VF-900 on GPU
Memory 2GB G.Skill DDR2 800
Video Card(s) Sapphire X850XT @ 580/600
Storage WD 160 GB SATA hard drive.
Display(s) Hanns G 19" widescreen, 5ms response time, 1440x900
Case Thermaltake Soprano (black with side window).
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster Live! 24 bit (paired with X-530 speakers).
Power Supply ThermalTake 430W TR2
Software XP Home SP2, can't wait for Vista SP1.
As an AMD/ATI fanboy, I have to say it's about freaking time NVIDIA got some delays :p.


I eagerly await AMD RD790/ ATI RV670 release and benchmarks. I also eagerly await ignoring said benchmarks, and just getting the latest and greatest from AMD :D.

Or maybe I should save up for a car...:laugh:.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
3,282 (0.44/day)
Location
Sunny California
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte Aorus X870E Elite
Cooling Asus Ryujin II 360 EVA Edition
Memory 4x16GBs DDR5 6000MHz Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX 4090 AMP Extreme Airo
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro OS - 4TB Nextorage G Series Games - 8TBs WD Black Storage
Display(s) LG C2 OLED 42" 4K 120Hz HDR G-Sync enabled TV
Case Asus ROG Helios EVA Edition
Audio Device(s) Denon AVR-S910W - 7.1 Klipsch Dolby ATMOS Speaker Setup - Audeze Maxwell
Power Supply beQuiet Straight Power 12 1500W
Mouse Asus ROG Keris EVA Edition - Asus ROG Scabbard II EVA Edition
Keyboard Asus ROG Strix Scope EVA Edition
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey VR
Software Windows 11 Pro 64bit
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.20/day)
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
comcast? how your linux distros going?
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
3,282 (0.44/day)
Location
Sunny California
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte Aorus X870E Elite
Cooling Asus Ryujin II 360 EVA Edition
Memory 4x16GBs DDR5 6000MHz Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX 4090 AMP Extreme Airo
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro OS - 4TB Nextorage G Series Games - 8TBs WD Black Storage
Display(s) LG C2 OLED 42" 4K 120Hz HDR G-Sync enabled TV
Case Asus ROG Helios EVA Edition
Audio Device(s) Denon AVR-S910W - 7.1 Klipsch Dolby ATMOS Speaker Setup - Audeze Maxwell
Power Supply beQuiet Straight Power 12 1500W
Mouse Asus ROG Keris EVA Edition - Asus ROG Scabbard II EVA Edition
Keyboard Asus ROG Strix Scope EVA Edition
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey VR
Software Windows 11 Pro 64bit
comcast? how your linux distros going?

Dunno, haven't tried Linux yet, but using bittorrent clients gets me disconnected from my ISP and I have to restart my wireless router and cable modem to connect again :(
 

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,055 (6.62/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
i guess HP will hack the Chipset to run Crossfire with a Asus Board like they did with the Blackbird 2
 
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
5,429 (0.85/day)
Location
Tennessee
System Name AM5
Processor AMD Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard Asrock X670E Taichi
Cooling EK AIO Basic 360
Memory Corsair Vengeance DDR5 5600 64 Gb - XMP1 Profile
Video Card(s) AMD Reference 7900 XTX 24 Gb
Storage Crucial Gen 5 1 TB, Samsung Gen 4 980 1 TB / Samsung 8TB SSD
Display(s) Samsung 34" 240hz 4K
Case Fractal Define R7
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME PX-1300, 1300W 80+ Platinum, Full Modular
I hope this board isn't plagued with all the problems the 680i boards had...
 

DaMulta

My stars went supernova
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
16,168 (2.42/day)
Location
Oklahoma T-Town
System Name Work in progress
Processor AMD 955---4Ghz
Motherboard MSi GD70
Cooling OcZ Phase/water
Memory Crucial2GB kit (1GBx2), Ballistix 240-pin DIMM, DDR3 PC3-16000
Video Card(s) CrossfireX 2 X HD 4890 1GB OCed to 1000Mhz
Storage SSD 64GB
Display(s) Envision 24'' 1920x1200
Case Using the desk ATM
Audio Device(s) Sucky onboard for now :(
Power Supply 1000W TruePower Quattro
What a shock. The 680i was crap and the 780i is looking to pick up where it left off...........

The 680i is the same chipset.....or so I read at the INQ a while back.

It just has a few extras added to it.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
3,946 (0.63/day)
Location
Police/Nanny State of America
Processor OCed 5800X3D
Motherboard Asucks C6H
Cooling Air
Memory 32GB
Video Card(s) OCed 6800XT
Storage NVMees
Display(s) 32" Dull curved 1440
Case Freebie glass idk
Audio Device(s) Sennheiser
Power Supply Don't even remember
Yes indeed, that's precisely why I said the rumors turned out to be false :rolleyes: :p

What were you smoking? I never saw a rumor that ever insinuated that. Even a month ago, the info. was accurate. :confused:
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
3,942 (0.62/day)
System Name Widow
Processor Ryzen 7600x
Motherboard AsRock B650 HDVM.2
Cooling CPU : Corsair Hydro XC7 }{ GPU: EK FC 1080 via Magicool 360 III PRO > Photon 170 (D5)
Memory 32GB Gskill Flare X5
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 TI
Storage Samsung 9series NVM 2TB and Rust
Display(s) Predator X34P/Tempest X270OC @ 120hz / LG W3000h
Case Fractal Define S [Antec Skeleton hanging in hall of fame]
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar Xense with AKG K612 cans on Monacor SA-100
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Razer Naga 2014
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores FFXIV ARR Benchmark 12,883 on i7 2600k 15,098 on AM5 7600x
So if the 680i is the samechipset, then won't Penryns work on 680s?
 

b1lk1

New Member
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
688 (0.10/day)
Location
Ontario, Canada
System Name Money pit
Processor Q2Q Q8300
Motherboard ASUS P5E3 deluxe WIFI AP@N
Cooling 120.2/Swiftech655/Apogee GT/DD Fillport & res
Memory OCZ PC3-1333MHZ 2X1GB/Kingston HYPERX PC3-1325MHz
Video Card(s) Sapphire HD4830
Storage Seagate 7200.11 1TB
Display(s) Dell 2209WA
Case some crap 5 year old generic modded case
Audio Device(s) X-FI fagtality
Power Supply PC P&C 510W
Software Vista Premium 64
The 680i is the same chipset.....or so I read at the INQ a while back.

It just has a few extras added to it.

If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, then this is gonna be some welcomed good news for AMD. Whether or not most people want to believe it, but the 680i was terrible and they dropped like flies taking lots of hardware with them when they popped. I know 3 guys that had them and they were ram eaters. Then the boards would drop soon after. FSB holes and poor voltage control were also major problems with them. Nvidia fell asleep at the switch if they are only rehashing the 680i to make the 780i. The really sad part is the fact they are still not allowing SLI on any other chipset so they are gonna start hurting their own bottom line with no good high end chipset for SLI. If only AMD can get a quality chipset out for Penryn, they will make up some lost CPU profits on chipset sales.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
102 (0.01/day)
Location
Pennsylvania
System Name Dark Uplink
Processor Intel 3930K @4.8Ghz
Motherboard EVGA X79 Dark
Cooling Custom Liquid cooling loop
Memory 32GB Kingston HyperX
Video Card(s) 2x Evga GTX 980 SC ACX 2.0
Storage 1 Intel 256GB SSD, 2xWD 1TB HDD
Display(s) 27" Dell U2713HM 2560x1440 monitor
Case High Speed "Top Deck" Test Bench
Power Supply Cooler Master 1100w
Software Windows 8.1
I'm reading alot of hate being directed at the 680i.Which as a satisfied 680i owner I find to be quite humorous.After having first hand knowledge about the 680i chipset,and watching it go through its initial growing pains(before purchasing it).I can say that my experience has been nothing but an ongoing pleasure,and the problems that some experinced with it on launch have long been solved with subsequent bios release updates.So if you choose to be a hater,that is by all means your perogative...Hate on.But please do so with up to date facts and information,which as far as I'm reading is not what is happening here.Myself I'll just continue to wait for the bios update that will be compatible for penryn on my 680i,and if 780i is just a refresh of 680i I'm sure that I won't have long to wait.;)Also Nvidia has not been plagued by the business mismanagement virus that obviously has a grip on amd/ati.I'm confident that Nvidia's business acumen is in tact and despite all the armcair CEO'ing going on here i'm positive Nvidia's bottomline will be just fine.I also applaud Nvidia for not releasing tech that is not ready for primetime,they do seem to learn from their past mistakes.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
3,282 (0.44/day)
Location
Sunny California
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte Aorus X870E Elite
Cooling Asus Ryujin II 360 EVA Edition
Memory 4x16GBs DDR5 6000MHz Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX 4090 AMP Extreme Airo
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro OS - 4TB Nextorage G Series Games - 8TBs WD Black Storage
Display(s) LG C2 OLED 42" 4K 120Hz HDR G-Sync enabled TV
Case Asus ROG Helios EVA Edition
Audio Device(s) Denon AVR-S910W - 7.1 Klipsch Dolby ATMOS Speaker Setup - Audeze Maxwell
Power Supply beQuiet Straight Power 12 1500W
Mouse Asus ROG Keris EVA Edition - Asus ROG Scabbard II EVA Edition
Keyboard Asus ROG Strix Scope EVA Edition
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey VR
Software Windows 11 Pro 64bit
What were you smoking? I never saw a rumor that ever insinuated that. Even a month ago, the info. was accurate. :confused:

Perhaps you should read the the front page news on this website more often then...

NVIDIA Planning More from the G92

After the success of the new GeForce 8800 GT, it looks like NVIDIA could have another card based on the same G92 core planned for later this year. Dubbed the new 8800 GTS (yes, I know it’s confusing – hopefully that will change) the new G92 card will feature 128 shader units instead of the 112 on the 8800 GT, which would suggest they could well exist on current 8800 GT cards and have been disabled for marketing or yield purposes. As it features a 256-bit memory interface it will go back to the more common 512MB and 1024MB memory blocks, and given how impressively the 8800 GT performs it’s expected it may be able to surpass NVIDIA’s 8800 GTX and possibly even the Ultra – NVIDIA’s two best cards. The card is expected to launch just after AMD’s Radeon HD 3800, and could well spoil the show for AMD if it performs as well as the speculation suggests.

NVIDIA Lists 512MB 8800 GTS

NVIDIA has accidently listed something on one of its web pages which would seem to support the story posted two days ago regarding the possibility of a new 8800 GTS based on the same G92 graphics processor as the 8800 GT. Originally shown on this page (although it's now been removed), NVIDIA let slip that it may be planning a 512MB 8800 GTS, which would seem to agree with the idea of a 256-bit version of the card. Admittedly it's not concrete evidence, but it definitely sounds suspiciously like a G92 8800 GTS could well be on the cards. The extract in question is shown at the bottom of the screenshot, and reads as follows:

5. HD DVD / Blu-ray Video Playback on NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS 512MB and 8800 GT is classified as Excellent. HD DVD / Blu-ray Video Playback on NVIDIA GeForce 8800 Ultra, GeForce 8800 GTX and GeForce 8800 GTS 320MB/640MB are classified as Good.


So it might be worth waiting before buying an 8800 GT if these cards are just around the corner.

But anyway, getting back to topic, as stated before the 680i isn't such a bad chipset, dunno why it's getting so much flak, sure it had problems with official support of the 1333Mhz FSB when procs with that bus came out, but in most cases a BIOS update fixed the problem.

I've certainly seen worst chipsets for both the Intel and AMD platforms; although it would be disappointing if the 780i is just a revision of the old 680i with minor tweaks, which seems to be the case, but if you want SLI for newer Intel procs, that's the way to go until either nVidia releases drivers with official support for SLI on the X38 and X48 (which as shown by Intel, are perfectly capable of SLI). The other option is to wait for Intel to release Skulltrail with its quad SLI support sometime next year...
 
Last edited:

Nyte

New Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2005
Messages
181 (0.02/day)
Location
Toronto ON
Processor i7 x980
Motherboard Asus SuperComputer
Memory 3x 2GB Triple Channel
Video Card(s) 2x Tahiti
Storage 2x OCZ SSD
Display(s) 23 inch
Power Supply 1 kW
Software Win 7 Ultimate
Benchmark Scores Very high!
By the way, the PCI-E bridge on the 780i will effectively mean that the communication between PCI-E slots and the CPU will be at PCI-E 1.1 speeds, not 2.0.

It's a marketing ploy to say this is PCI-E 2.0 when in fact you won't get those speeds out of it (apart from peer to peer communication).
 
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.20/day)
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
owned ... intel or ATi for me (Intel)
 

Behemoko

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
98 (0.02/day)
Processor AMD Athlon XP 3200+ @ 2.2
Memory 1.25GB DDR 333
Video Card(s) x800 Pro VIVO
Storage 160GB @ 7,200 RPM
Display(s) IBM 19" @ 1280 x 1024, 75
Power Supply 500 watts
Software Windows XP sp. 2
Well, I can't build my new comp until early December at the earliest anyway, so this doesn't affect me much. :) All the more time to work out the kinks, and get their shit right.
 
Top