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AMD Readies X870E Chipset to Launch Alongside First Ryzen 9000 "Granite Ridge" CPUs

dgianstefani

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@dgianstefani : Just out of interest I looked up recent benchmarks about the benefits of fast RAM on Ryzen 7000 and found this. While DDR5-7400 is possible since AGESA 1.0.0.7b, it performs even slightly worse than DDR5-6200, because of 1:2 mode. Same for 7950X in 1440p and 7800X3D in 1080p. So what's your argument again? There is no performance to be gained by fast RAM. You can buy RAM fast enough to max out Ryzen 7000 for just slightly more than cheap RAM. Only thing you can do ist buy cheap RAM and tune it to 6400 CL30/32 yourself, if you have time but no money.
A tuned 6200 setup with subtimings is faster than an EXPO 6000 bumped to 6400 (unlikely to achieve). Something like 55 ns vs around 60.

TRFC and other timings make more difference if you can't go past 6400 without going out of sync like with Zen. It's another reason the platform isn't the magic bullet people think it is. Intel scales past 8000 MT, Zen will do 6200, 6400 if you're very lucky.

Perf diff between 6000 EXPO and 6200 tuned is about 8% in my testing averages. But in best case scenario moved from 190 min FPS to my min FPS not deviating from my framelock, so 237 FPS, that's one game though.
 
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@dgianstefani : Just out of interest I looked up recent benchmarks about the benefits of fast RAM on Ryzen 7000 and found this. While DDR5-7400 is possible since AGESA 1.0.0.7b, it performs even slightly worse than DDR5-6200, because of 1:2 mode. Same for 7950X in 1440p and 7800X3D in 1080p. So what's your argument again? There is no performance to be gained by fast RAM. You can buy RAM fast enough to max out Ryzen 7000 for just slightly more than cheap RAM. Only thing you can do ist buy cheap RAM and tune it to 6400 CL30/32 yourself, if you have time but no money.
Switching your memory controller to 1:2 mode will always result in sub-par results compared to just slightly slower RAM still in 1:1 with the IMC. I recommend this review with pure 1:1 speeds if you're interested.
 
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I just did a Cinebench R23 run with both 4800 and 6000 MHz RAM. Here is the difference:

4800vs6000.PNG

The orange line is 4800 MHz, and the brown line is 6000 MHz. One could wonder why the result with 6000 MHz is lower than 4800 MHz, but I'd say it's within margin of error.

This is the same difference that I see in games (that is: none).
 

dgianstefani

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I just did a Cinebench R23 run with both 4800 and 6000 MHz RAM. Here is the difference:

View attachment 341577
The orange line is 4800 MHz, and the brown line is 6000 MHz. One could wonder why the result with 6000 MHz is lower than 4800 MHz, but I'd say it's within margin of error.

This is the same difference that I see in games (that is: none).
FYI Cinebench does not scale with RAM. This is common knowledge.

If you're using this to try and objectively prove some point about gaming, it's entirely irrelevant.

Do a gaming comparison if you want to talk about gaming, or a benchmark that doesn't fit in cache.
 
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FYI Cinebench does not scale with RAM. This is common knowledge.

If you're using this to try and objectively prove some point about gaming, it's entirely irrelevant.
I can also post gaming results if you'd like. All I'm saying is that this Cinebench result is highly representative of my gaming experience.

I know that Cinebench doesn't scale well with RAM speed, but neither does my gaming experience using a 7800 XT at 1440 UW.
 

dgianstefani

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Additionally, the speed is not 4800 or 6000 MHz, it's 2400 and 3000 MHz. What you're talking about is MT.

I can also post gaming results if you'd like. All I'm saying is that this Cinebench result is highly representative of my gaming experience.

I know that Cinebench doesn't scale well with RAM speed, but neither does my gaming experience using a 7800 XT at 1440 UW.
False equivalence.
 
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On AM5 1:2 7800-8000MT/s DDR5 deliver slightly more RAM bandwidth (write/read/copy) than 1:1 mode, but limiting factor is more or less the Infinity Fabric.
But you cannot notice this trough Cinebench 23, you need something like Geekbench or other program that can meager it.
 
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For gaming, you should prefer lower latency rather than higher bandwidth.

Horizon Zero Down did ~10-16k Read / 3-4k Write.
Shadow of the Tomb Rider did 6-12k Read / 2-3k Write.

So this is far from theoretical 70-100GBs that Aida64 showed.
 

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Sure. Which game do you have in mind?
Shadow of the Tomb Raider is popular for benchmarking because it scales.

For gaming, you should prefer lower latency rather than higher bandwidth.
Yup. Hence why Intel rigs and B die DDR4 are popular for sub 45 ns.

Having both is nice though. I.e. Raptor Lake with AIDA 120/120/120 R/W/C and sub 50 ns latency at 8000 MT+ DDR5.
 
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Sometimes you also need a high CPU frequency (some games), where Intel is also top notch, especially in fine tuning.

Whether the price for fine tuned Intel is worth it , is another topic.

Yup. Hence why Intel rigs and B die DDR4 are popular for sub 45 ns.
Ryzen x3D are under 7ns to the 3D cache. Of course, when there is what the CPU is looking for :D
 

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Sometimes you also need a high CPU frequency (some games), where Intel is also top notch, especially in fine tuning.

Whether the price for fine tuned Intel is worth it , is another topic.


Ryzen x3D are under 7ns to the 3D cache. Of course, when there is what the CPU is looking for :D
Not everything fits in ~100 MB of cache. It's a compromise for having low clocks and a bad memory subsystem. When the compromise doesn't work, the CPU sucks worse than a standard 7700X without 3DVCache, because the clocks are even lower and you can't lock them.
 
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Shadow of the Tomb Raider is popular for benchmarking because it scales.
I don't have that installed right now, but I'll be sure to test it.

In the meantime, here are some Cyberpunk 2077 results with maxed out graphics, 3440x1440, no RT, no upscaling:

4800 MHz RAM:
20240401130106_1.jpg


6000 MHz RAM:
20240401130707_1.jpg
 

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I don't have that installed right now, but I'll be sure to test it.

In the meantime, here are some Cyberpunk 2077 results with maxed out graphics, 3440x1440, no RT, no upscaling:

4800 MHz RAM:
View attachment 341578

6000 MHz RAM:
View attachment 341581
Ah. So how you normally play right? Definitely wouldn't lower any settings if you're getting 45 FPS. I believe it.

Trying to prove your point about "never" being CPU limited by striving your hardest to find a game and settings combo that pushes your GPU as hard as it can? These representative of your daily settings?

Again, it's 6000 MT, not MHz.
 
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Ah. So how you normally play right?
Yes. 40-45 FPS is fine by me as long as it's stable, which it is.

Trying to prove your point about "never" being CPU limited by striving your hardest to find a game and settings combo that pushes your GPU as hard as it can?
No. I picked a random game that has a built-in benchmark and I have installed right now.

Again, it's 6000 MT, not MHz.
Sure. And your point is...?
 

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DDR stands for double data rate. Hence the 6000 mega transfers, not megahertz.
I know. I still don't see your point, though.

Fascinating.
See my above point: Gaming experience is all subjective relative to our expectations. My expectations are obviously way lower than yours, therefore, RAM speed doesn't matter to me.
 

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I know. I still don't see your point, though.


See my above point: Gaming experience is all subjective relative to our expectations. My expectations are obviously way lower than yours, therefore, RAM speed doesn't matter to me.
You don't want to see my point. There's a difference.

Why not buy a 60Hz ultrawide rather than a 144 Hz one then and save some money for a better GPU? Surely it will make no differences to you if you're happy to (and normally) play at 45 FPS.

But I doubt this is actually the case.

If you genuinely are happy to play at 45 FPS, you massively overspent on your CPU and massively underspent on your GPU.
 
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Not everything fits in ~100 MB of cache. It's a compromise for having low clocks and a bad memory subsystem. When the compromise doesn't work, the CPU sucks worse than a standard 7700X without 3DVCache, because the clocks are even lower and you can't lock them.
You can check it in real time with HWinfo64 (DDR5 systems), you can add this to your MSI Afterburner.
 
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dgianstefani

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You can check it in real time with HWinfo64 (DDR5 systems), you can add you to your MSI Afterburner.
Thanks, I know. But I prefer not to have monitoring apps running in background unless I'm testing a tune because they consume resources.

You don't want to see my point. There's a difference.

Why not buy a 60Hz ultrawide rather than a 144 Hz one then and save some money for a better GPU? Surely it will make no differences to you if you're happy to (and normally) play at 45 FPS.

But I doubt this is actually the case.

If you genuinely are happy to play at 45 FPS, you massively overspent on your CPU and massively underspent on your GPU.
What I mean by this is you could have spent the same money in total, but gotten a 45 FPS native ultra experience with ray tracing. Or gotten 60 FPS instead.

While consuming less power too.

And with the option of DLAA to bring better than native image quality.
 
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Thanks, I know. But I prefer not to have monitoring apps running in background unless I'm testing a tune because they consume resources.


What I mean by this is you could have spent the same money in total, but gotten a 45 FPS native ultra experience with ray tracing. Or gotten 60 FPS instead.

While consuming less power too.

And with the option of DLAA to bring better than native image quality.
You had to throw Nvidia in there didn't you. Like that makes a difference on your power bill a 7800XT is not that power hungry. DO you even know what AMD Advantage is? Well it is in the latest driver. making this power argument moot.
 
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Why not buy a 60Hz ultrawide rather than a 144 Hz one then and save some money for a better GPU? Surely it will make no differences to you if you're happy to (and normally) play at 45 FPS.
Because
1. 60 Hz ultrawides either don't exist, or they're so rare that I've never seen one, and
2. The Freesync range on my monitor goes from 48 to 144 Hz, so any performance within my expected range gives me a smooth, tear-free experience. It also has LFC, which basically doubles or triples my refresh rate relative to game performance, should it drop below 48 FPS (although I aim for it not to). I love my monitor for more things than its max refresh rate.

If you genuinely are happy to play at 45 FPS, you massively overspent on your CPU and massively underspent on your GPU.
I'm with you on that. The thing is that hardware is my hobby. I tend to massively overspend on stuff that I'm curious about, but have no need for. I would never recommend anyone else to do the same.

If I only ever bought what I needed, I'd still be on my Rocket Lake platform with a 24" 1080p monitor.
 
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Switching your memory controller to 1:2 mode will always result in sub-par results compared to just slightly slower RAM still in 1:1 with the IMC. I recommend this review with pure 1:1 speeds if you're interested.
Thanks, but that benchmark isn't helpful at all. 1) It only test up to DDR5-6000 with low and high timings on AM5, but I was interested in the benefit of higher clockspeeds like 6200, 6400 and much higher. 2) It's only 1080p with a 4090 in memory-sensitive games, that run at 200fps+ without any use to it. Sure it will show high benefits but that doesn't mean I gain anything from DDR5-6000 CL30 in 1440p with a less powerful GPU, which is what most people have.
Again, I am ok with buying DDR5-6000 CL30 or even slightly faster RAM that works out of the box, which is what I did. I am ok with buying cheap RAM and OCing it to DDR5-6x00 CL30 if you have the time, which I don't have.
But unless I see perceptible gains in several games, in low fps for example, in 1440p or 3440x1440, with anything you can't buy for a few bucks above what DDR5-6000 costs, I'm not convinced it's woth my time. Even then, since I don't wan't to spend 1.000€+ on a GPU and thus will never have a 4090 or even 4080, I still will always be GPU-bound in 3440x1440.
On AM5 1:2 7800-8000MT/s DDR5 deliver slightly more RAM bandwidth (write/read/copy) than 1:1 mode, but limiting factor is more or less the Infinity Fabric.
And what is the sensible limit of the IF? Did I read right that CPUs with only one CCD are limited in max bandwith, too?
Shadow of the Tomb Raider is popular for benchmarking because it scales.
That's one problem I see with memory benchmarks. People only use games they know will scale with memory, even though theyre old and it's totally useless in some cases (who still plays Tomb Raider and what difference does it make if it's 120fps or 200fps minimum?). If they just used the most played contemporal games, to many wouldn't benefit from fast RAM.
Trying to prove your point about "never" being CPU limited by striving your hardest to find a game and settings combo that pushes your GPU as hard as it can? These representative of your daily settings?
He didn't, his is a very common setup. And if this shows that RAM-speed doesn't make any difference to fps, minimum as well as average, in 3440x1440, if you don't have a 4090, then nobody that hasn't should care about memory speed. And there sure as hell won't be any tangible difference above DDR5-6000 CL30 out of the box that would be worth the trouble.
What I mean by this is you could have spent the same money in total, but gotten a 45 FPS native ultra experience with ray tracing. Or gotten 60 FPS instead.
I will admit that any Radeon isn't ideal for Cyberpunk with RT but your argument is only half valid. Here in Germany a 7800X3D costs about 70€ more than a 7700X, which is 50€ above a 7700, which is only 25€ above a 7600X. The cheapes AM5-CPU, 7500F costs 190€ less than a 7800X3D.
The difference between the cheapest 7800XT and 7900XT is 210€, between the cheapest 4070S and 4070TiS 240€. Yes, a 7900GRE and 4070S would be only 50€ and 60€ above 7800XT and 4070 respectively, so I would at least go for those at the moment, but you can't buy that much more GPU-power by skimping on the CPU, even if you chose the cheapes CPU available. A 7800X3D is not a very expensive CPU, but anything from 7900XT and 4070Ti up is a very expensive GPU. If every € counts, you should skimp on every other component, including RAM, to buy the most potent GPU, it gaming is your goal, but the 7800X3D is worth it in most games. It's the only viable reason to choose AM5 for gaming. Anything below has a faster, cheaper Intel-counterpart, if not as efficient. Of course, there are other reasons to consider that are less ovjective.
 

dgianstefani

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Thanks, but that benchmark isn't helpful at all. 1) It only test up to DDR5-6000 with low and high timings on AM5, but I was interested in the benefit of higher clockspeeds like 6200, 6400 and much higher. 2) It's only 1080p with a 4090 in memory-sensitive games, that run at 200fps+ without any use to it. Sure it will show high benefits but that doesn't mean I gain anything from DDR5-6000 CL30 in 1440p with a less powerful GPU, which is what most people have.
Again, I am ok with buying DDR5-6000 CL30 or even slightly faster RAM that works out of the box, which is what I did. I am ok with buying cheap RAM and OCing it to DDR5-6x00 CL30 if you have the time, which I don't have.
But unless I see perceptible gains in several games, in low fps for example, in 1440p or 3440x1440, with anything you can't buy for a few bucks above what DDR5-6000 costs, I'm not convinced it's woth my time. Even then, since I don't wan't to spend 1.000€+ on a GPU and thus will never have a 4090 or even 4080, I still will always be GPU-bound in 3440x1440.

And what is the sensible limit of the IF? Did I read right that CPUs with only one CCD are limited in max bandwith, too?

That's one problem I see with memory benchmarks. People only use games they know will scale with memory, even though theyre old and it's totally useless in some cases (who still plays Tomb Raider and what difference does it make if it's 120fps or 200fps minimum?). If they just used the most played contemporal games, to many wouldn't benefit from fast RAM.

He didn't, his is a very common setup. And if this shows that RAM-speed doesn't make any difference to fps, minimum as well as average, in 3440x1440, if you don't have a 4090, then nobody that hasn't should care about memory speed. And there sure as hell won't be any tangible difference above DDR5-6000 CL30 out of the box that would be worth the trouble.

I will admit that any Radeon isn't ideal for Cyberpunk with RT but your argument is only half valid. Here in Germany a 7800X3D costs about 70€ more than a 7700X, which is 50€ above a 7700, which is only 25€ above a 7600X. The cheapes AM5-CPU, 7500F costs 190€ less than a 7800X3D.
The difference between the cheapest 7800XT and 7900XT is 210€, between the cheapest 4070S and 4070TiS 240€. Yes, a 7900GRE and 4070S would be only 50€ and 60€ above 7800XT and 4070 respectively, so I would at least go for those at the moment, but you can't buy that much more GPU-power by skimping on the CPU, even if you chose the cheapes CPU available. A 7800X3D is not a very expensive CPU, but anything from 7900XT and 4070Ti up is a very expensive GPU. If every € counts, you should skimp on every other component, including RAM, to buy the most potent GPU, it gaming is your goal, but the 7800X3D is worth it in most games. It's the only viable reason to choose AM5 for gaming. Anything below has a faster, cheaper Intel-counterpart, if not as efficient. Of course, there are other reasons to consider that are less ovjective.
There's zero reason to buy a 7800X3D for gaming unless you're buying a high end GPU. You can even make this argument for the AM5 platform, which isn't exactly cheap. The same logic you're using to dismiss RAM performance (which you're claiming makes zero difference unless you have a 4090, which is false) also applies to CPU performance, because they're two facets of the same thing. The 7800X3D simply reduces the reliance on fast RAM for high performance the non X3D chips have. Fast CPUs are good for one thing relating to gaming, low and consistent frame times (i.e. high average FPS, high minimum FPS, no stutters).

The point of a fast CPU is to provide more frames than the GPU can render, making you GPU limited.

If you're GPU limited all the time (99% usage while gaming), it's a sign of a well optimized PC. But there's a limit to this. Zero point building a super high performance CPU PC designed to push 2,3,400 frames consistently, if it's paired with a GPU that can't even consistently push 100 FPS at the settings/resolution you're playing at.

I'm a strong proponent against the 7900/X3D because of it's compromise 6+6 design, but if you're GPU limited to a significant extent (as a 7800X3D+7800XT GPU build is, especially at ultrawide), there's practically zero reason to pick the similarly priced 8 core 7800X3D, which gives up multithreaded performance and therefore productivity performance, for a gaming focused design. You might as well get the strong productivity CPU that gives up a little at the upper end of framerates, but is still well above the ~100FPS that the GPU can deliver). Although to be clear, we're talking about a build that gets ~45 FPS here. And the owner of that build is happy with that (I won't argue if this is right or wrong, but this emphasises the fact that CPU is of very little importance at these low frame rates, paired with a 7800XT, you could get an identical gaming experience with a 10400f, a $100 Skylake CPU).

In 90%+ of use cases, excepting CPU limited games such as simulation games (minecraft, racing games etc) or esports games (CS2, overwatch etc), the user is going to be GPU limited. Therefore GPU should be the main priority for budget. Spending $700+ on a platform (7800X3D + AM5 Motherboard + RAM), and $500 on a GPU is silly, objectively. You could make the argument "future proof platform" but that only makes sense when the whole build is high end. If you're doing a mid range build, you don't waste money on "future proof" and frivolities.

I agree, the RTX 4070 Ti Super is expensive at $800. But I guarantee for the budget this build cost, I could make something with a 4070 Ti Super that didn't do any stupid compromises like a quad core i3 or anything. -

1712258122440.png


While it's true everyone has different requirements for gaming. I.e. some people are happy at 45 FPS, others want to be above 200 all the time. In a discussion about RAM performance, it's completely irrelevant to talk about the 45 FPS scenario, because a literal DDR3 platform would happily chug away at those frame rates in modern games. The criteria for discussing RAM, is the high FPS arena. It's also important to mention that RAM tuning is literally free. It costs nothing.

You can make the efficiency argument for the 7800X3D, but again, just buy a non X3D chip and lower the voltage/frequency, you'll get the same results. After all it's the same silicon just with a different voltage curve that the cache can tolerate.

AusWolf said:
I'm with you on that. The thing is that hardware is my hobby. I tend to massively overspend on stuff that I'm curious about, but have no need for. I would never recommend anyone else to do the same.
This encapsulates my point. I have no issue with AusWolf, because he's clear that he's made these purchasing decisions based on hobbyist interests, rather than logical routes to performance within a set budget.

This is what I'm talking about.

You could literally be using a Zen 2 platform and getting ~95 FPS averages, more than twice the 45 FPS AusWolf is getting.

average-fps-2560-1440.png


This is the 2024 test bench, so these averages are based off new games too, not the ones released when Zen 2 was introduced.

This base would give a 125 FPS average in modern games at 1440p, while costing 2/3 the price of just the 7800X3D CPU only.

1712258536649.png


The rest of the saved money could go straight to GPU.

That's buying new too, I'm sure there's plenty of 10th gen combos kicking around on the second hand market for ~$150.

Even if you want to be safe and base your CPU off Minimum FPS, Skylake/Zen 2 still provide well over 60 FPS.
minimum-fps-1920-1080 (1).png


And what is the sensible limit of the IF? Did I read right that CPUs with only one CCD are limited in max bandwith, too?
Dual CCD chips have identical per core bandwidth. The difference is measurable in benchmarks which are using all cores to write data. Because there are two connections to the IMC, one from each CCD, there is double the write bandwidth. But this does not affect games, because as stated, per core bandwidth is identical, it's just dual CCD chips have more cores. There's also the inter core latency issue that dual CCD (especially dual six core CCD vs single eight core CCD) chips have, so the bandwidth "reason" isn't really signficant.

The dual CCD X3D chips also post better synthetic RAM benchmarks, because those benchmarks make use of the frequency CCD (which doesn't have VCache). Higher frequency CPUs operate with lower latency to the system memory. However, because the VCache CCD is practically identically clocked (5.05GHz on 7800X3D, 5.15 on 7900 (but six cores not eight), and 5.25 Ghz max boost on 7950X3D for the VCache CCD), in gaming, this is practically meaningless.
 
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There's zero reason to buy a 7800X3D for gaming unless you're buying a high end GPU.
More than 20fps average above any other AMD CPU, even much more expensive ones, and the absolute top of the ranking above any unleashed Intel CPU is no reason? The 7800X3D is so good in many games, it's hard to justify not to buy one if you are gaming a lot.

Sure, if you're on really limited budget then it might be to expensive, as might AM5 altogether. But I would even skimp more on RAM than on the CPU if that would get me the 7800X3D, which is less dependent on fast RAM, as you said yourself.

Your argument is still to absolute. I am talking about investing time and/or money into RAM faster than DDR5-6000/6200/6400 CL30/32/34 with EXPO, which you can buy for not much more than any old DDR5-5x00 and which works out of the box. There is next to zero benefit to going faster on AM5 as of now and it's not worth the time needed to get it stable.

It's hard to say what to invest into when you're on a thight budget. From your benchmark it would seem the difference between all AM5-CPUs without X3D is neglegible (7fps average) and it could be better to get a 7600(X) with fast RAM than a 7700X with very cheap RAM (but that you could OC yourself if you time but no money).
I have no issue with AusWolf, because he's clear that he's made these purchasing decisions based on hobbyist interests, rather than logical routes to performance within a set budget.
I did the same, this time. I chose my mainboard with rather unlikely future upgrades in mind (two PCIe x4-slots for 10GbE and TB4/USB4), chose the 7800X3D for above reasons, chose RAM without high rising heat sink for CPU-cooler compatiblity, DDR5-6000 with EXPO because it was called the sweet spot then and even paid 10€ extra for CL30 instead of CL32 (certainly not worth it). I chose a 1.000W PSU because I had not yet decided on a GPU and was considering used 3090.
Now I had to move, have far less space on my desktop for the time being an am back to my Dell U2410 with 1920x1200@60Hz and use the RTX 2070 from my old PC. I don't play any new, demanding games, so everything is at 60fps constantly.
For my 34" 2440x1440@144-165Hz, when I have the space for it again, I probably will buy a 5070 or something in that range.
 
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