Intel's Panther Lake CPU Generation on Track for Mid-2025 Release, AI Capabilities to See Significant Boost

[Tek-Check]

The CPU power efficiency in gaming argument always makes me laugh. It's always drowned out by the 350w GPUs the CPUs are paired with. The savings on the power bill at the end of the year are minuscule. It's not enough to persuade for one side or the other just for PC gaming.

I don't think it's about electricity bill of individuals. It's about tech. If efficient CPU design is available on a large scale, why pretend it's not there, or not care about it?

If I don't need to add another 100W to PC usage, I won't, as there are products out there that do exactly that, and often for less money.

Just for those who want the raw "V8" or "V16"

You have Ryzen with 16 big cores. On Intel, you can switch off e-cores in BIOS.

Well, it's working fine for Nvidia

True that, but not necessarily for local and regional power grids around the world.

Total installation of Nvidia AI systems by the end of 2024 is expected to consume up to 15 Gigawatt hours of energy, almost twice as much as annual production of the largest nuclear power plant in the world. A thing for thought.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Total installation of Nvidia AI systems by the end of 2024 is expected to consume up to 15 Gigawatt hours of energy, almost twice as much as annual production of the largest nuclear power plant in the world. A thing for thought.

Surprisingly efficient, given the sheer processing power. As for power generation, we'll find a way. We always do.

 

[phints]

If this continous diarrhea of Intel rumors was to be believed they would somehow be releasing 3 generations of CPUs all in one year, all simultaneously on Intel 4, Intel 20A, even maybe TMSC 3N lithographies.

These rumors are such a joke I would block them all if I could until they *actually* release new HEDT CPUs.

 

[Dr. Dro]

If this continous diarrhea of Intel rumors was to be believed they would somehow be releasing 3 generations of CPUs all in one year, all simultaneously on Intel 4, Intel 20A, even maybe TMSC 3N lithographies.

These rumors are such a joke I would block them all if I could until they *actually* release new HEDT CPUs.

It's quite unlikely but i'd much rather have a lesser HEDT system with say, 12 P-cores and 6-channel memory than any mainstream desktop CPU

 

[Upgrayedd]

We're not comparing CPUs to GPUs. We're comparing CPUs to CPUs. Do try to keep up.

yall were talking about power efficiency in gaming like an extra 100w is really going to break those 1000W+ PSUs people need for the GPUs needed to make the CPU efficiency argument even a talking point. It takes more than just a CPU to game. I don't disagree that one CPU is much more efficient than the other frame for frame, but its not a major deal breaker to a normal gamer with a job who is not gaming for 14 hours a day but maybe 5 hours at the most and depending on if you work from your PC or not could factor in your choice here too, 8-10hrs of working from your PC and 4-5 of gaming could be brand A while gaming use only could be brand B.

The GPUs that get paired with the CPUs you're talking about pull the vast majority of system power while gaming. Especially if the system is GPU bound like they should be instead of CPU bound.

I don't think it's about electricity bill of individuals. It's about tech. If efficient CPU design is available on a large scale, why pretend it's not there, or not care about it?

If I don't need to add another 100W to PC usage, I won't, as there are products out there that do exactly that, and often for less money.

You were talking about gaming efficiency by wattage. Its cool to see, yeah, but does the difference here REALLY matter that much to the average gamers wallet? Not really, unless you're gaming an unhealthy amount then you got bigger problems besides CPU efficiency.

 

[Tek-Check]

Surprisingly efficient, given the sheer processing power. As for power generation, we'll find a way. We always do.

Several governments do not share such happy-go-lucky optimism, considering wider challenges, but that's another topic...

 

[Assimilator]

You were talking about gaming efficiency by wattage. Its cool to see, yeah, but does the difference here REALLY matter that much to the average gamers wallet?

Stop trying to make it about cost. It's not about cost. It's about good design.

 

[Tek-Check]

You were talking about gaming efficiency by wattage. Its cool to see, yeah, but does the difference here REALLY matter that much to the average gamers wallet?

- average gamer does not live in vacuum, but shares living space and resources with other fellow human beings
- although savings are modest for an individual, if you have 5, 10 or 50 million such gamers, savings are substantial
- also, power savings are very much meaningful and desirable on a larger scale
- there are efficient and highly performant CPUs available; why would you ever buy one for gaming that is neither more efficient, nor faster?
- besides, each modest saving per year, let's say $40 per gamer, could be donated to a charity that treats childrens' illness or provide food programme
- each modest saving can help other people in many different ways
- just imagine, there is a wider society around you...

 

[Dr. Dro]

Several governments do not share such happy-go-lucky optimism, considering wider challenges, but that's another topic...

Europe's issue is of their own making. Aggressive pursuit of green policy caused an overreliance on imported energy, from a country they weren't in the best of terms to begin with and definitely aren't now.

They'll be forced to modernize their grid and invest into generation quite heavily over the next few years, but this is not as much of a problem for China or the United States, or even Brazil which enjoys extensive use of relatively clean and inexpensive hydro power. Data centers can be installed in such countries where conditions are favorable.

The demand for energy is there and this AI hardware is a drop in the bucket long term as processing power tends to greatly outpace the energy demand over time.

 

[GerKNG]

i'd take a 1% IPC bump in trade of the AI and cinebench accelerator crap.
Intel has currently not a single product that i am interested in and it seems like AMD will be the only relevant CPU manufacturer for the coming years as well.

 

[Dr. Dro]

i'd take a 1% IPC bump in trade of the AI and cinebench accelerator crap.
Intel has currently not a single product that i am interested in and it seems like AMD will be the only relevant CPU manufacturer for the coming years as well.

AMD has equally dedicated resources to AI in their processors for the upcoming generation. They'll have neural instructions and NPUs all the same. "Ryzen AI" branded.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/consumer/ryzen-ai.html

If I had to say though Intel's processor takes a novel approach while AMD follows the classic recipe and builds upon it. Time will tell who does better.

 

[mkppo]

Hmm so intel can't seem to compete on the process or arch front and will push AI to infinity now for marketing of course. It's what they're good at. Enthusiast desktops will have a GPU anyway that will far surpass anything they have on the CPU front.

If this is a sign of what's coming ahead they can kiss a good chunk of the datacenter market share goodbye. It's already happening every quarter for a few years, and will only accelerate.

I question some of their recent business decisions on an ethical front as well and hesitate to buy their CPU's but I suppose the timing is good as they are inferior for every single use case I have compared to AMD and from the looks of things, it'll only get worse from here. I have a feeling Zen 5 will smack them so hard on the performance front that they will push AI like there's no tomorrow and try to shift goalposts. If they do, it's utterly pathetic but won't be the first time they've done something like that.

yall were talking about power efficiency in gaming like an extra 100w is really going to break those 1000W+ PSUs people need for the GPUs needed to make the CPU efficiency argument even a talking point. It takes more than just a CPU to game. I don't disagree that one CPU is much more efficient than the other frame for frame, but its not a major deal breaker to a normal gamer with a job who is not gaming for 14 hours a day but maybe 5 hours at the most and depending on if you work from your PC or not could factor in your choice here too, 8-10hrs of working from your PC and 4-5 of gaming could be brand A while gaming use only could be brand B.

The GPUs that get paired with the CPUs you're talking about pull the vast majority of system power while gaming. Especially if the system is GPU bound like they should be instead of CPU bound.

You were talking about gaming efficiency by wattage. Its cool to see, yeah, but does the difference here REALLY matter that much to the average gamers wallet? Not really, unless you're gaming an unhealthy amount then you got bigger problems besides CPU efficiency.

Other folks have chimed in and countered your points but i'll state one more. For custom loops with shared radiators for both the CPU and GPU, like one I made for a customer with 1x120 and 1x360 rad, a change from 14900K to 7950X3D (stemming from the current instability issues which he was facing, he didn't want to put band aids in place) resulted in the GPU being able to boost more simply because an additional 120W wasn't dumped in the loop by the CPU for no performance gain whatsoever. This is especially true if the GPU is overclocked

 

[Konceptz]

So confused, is this a desktop or mobile sku?

 

[pressing on]

So confused, is this a desktop or mobile sku?

Panther Lake is a desktop sku mainly. Because the higher end mobile processors (currently 14th gen HX CPUs such as the 14900HX) are based on desktop technology. The possible timetable is Arrow Lake desktop November 2024, Arrow Lake 'HX' January 2025. Followed by Panther Lake as the successor to Arrow Lake one year later, maybe.

 

[Minus Infinity]

It's not like Intel big CPUs can't be efficient. It's just that no one tests the Low TDP variants, and people ignore that you can just change the power limit on the BIOS on the high power ones.
View attachment 346222

Yet do don't even need to do that on the AMD X3D cpus' but you can improve efficiency even more without sacrificing huge wads of performance. My core optimised and tuned Zen 7 cpu gets better performance than stock uses less power and runs ~64C max. I never use more than 118W and that's all core stress. Gaming I would use way less.

Panther Lake is a desktop sku mainly. Because the higher end mobile processors (currently 14th gen HX CPUs such as the 14900HX) are based on desktop technology. The possible timetable is Arrow Lake desktop November 2024, Arrow Lake 'HX' January 2025. Followed by Panther Lake as the successor to Arrow Lake one year later, maybe.

Panther Lake is both mobile and desktop, but builds on Lunar Lakes design. It will be much more efficient than Arrow Lake for mobile.

 

[pressing on]

Panther Lake is both mobile and desktop, but builds on Lunar Lakes design. It will be much more efficient than Arrow Lake for mobile.

Panther Lake on the desktop will be LGA1851 like Arrow Lake. The mobile component will be the equivalent to the HX range of CPUs. These are currently Raptor Lake 14th gen processors such as the 14650HX and 14700HX. The will be replaced by Arrow Lake HX and then Panther Lake HX, all closely related to the desktop technology. One common feature seems to be iGPU only, with no plans for a GPU graphics tile. This fits with the HX range because it virtually always ships with NVIDIA mobile chipsets such as the RTX 4060.

I don't see any connection between Panther Lake and Lunar Lake. Lunar Lake is a successor to Meteor Lake and like ML will feature both iGPU and GPU tiles. ML and LL processors are low and middle range CPUs that fit below the HX chips in Intel's mobile hardware stack. With LL the emphasis is mobile only tech such as the on-package RAM, and power efficiency rather than the performance focus of the HX.

 

[Tek-Check]

Panther Lake on the desktop will be LGA1851 like Arrow Lake.

We don't know this as yet. It might be Arrow Lake refresh on desktop.

The mobile component will be the equivalent to the HX range of CPUs.

We don't know this either. Panther Lake might have H/U SKUs only if it does not come out on desktop.

One common feature seems to be iGPU only, with no plans for a GPU graphics tile. This fits with the HX range

No. iGPU = graphics tile on the new architecture in all segments, apart from Lunar Lake. Arrow Lake desktop is said to come with 4 Xe-LPG cores on a separate tile. And Arrow lake mobile with up to 8 Xe-LPG+ tile, a bit more advanced than MTL, with XMX and DirectX 12_2 feature level.

I don't see any connection between Panther Lake and Lunar Lake. Lunar Lake is a successor to Meteor Lake and like ML will feature both iGPU and GPU tiles.

- no
- Panther Lake seems to be a successor of Meteor Lake for H and U SKUs
- Lunar Lake is a separate project, an entry APU with on-package memory. We have seen two engineering samples so far

three tiles​	two tiles and dummy tile​

So confused, is this a desktop or mobile sku?

Nobody knows at the moment.

Panther Lake is both mobile and desktop, but builds on Lunar Lakes design. It will be much more efficient than Arrow Lake for mobile.

We don't know this. You can't have Panther Lake both ways
- it's either a full architecture and builds on Arrow Lake design for 1851 socket and/or H/U socket
- or it's based on Lunar Lake, with on-package memory