NVIDIA Unveils New SFF-friendly Enthusiast GeForce RTX Graphics Card Standard

[Noyand]

I absolutely agree with @Solaris17 on this. Modern GPUs are an aberration in what the trend for computing has been for… well, as long as computers were a thing. Everything else is striving towards reducing the physical sizes and footprint of computing. Thus the path towards thinner and lighter laptops, laptop-tablet hybrids, AIO PCs and, hell, even smartphones, although the current flagship trend is going for bigger screens, are trying to minimize those via use of foldable displays.
And yet in desktop DIY PCs we’ve been essentially stuck on the same-ish tower form factor for a long while now. You’d think that what we call SFF would not be this exotic niche for enthusiasts by now, but the norm. And yet it’s not. And I absolutely think that GPU sizes increasing drastically over the last decade is part of the problem.

The thing to remember is the performance target that we are striving for, and that high-performance computers got drastically smaller because they radically changed how the processing units were designed.

Today though? We are using a massively refined version of the tech that allowed the microprocessor to be a thing. It's refined enough to allow relatively powerful computers that fit in our pockets, but it's still the same technology. It's still silicon, and as years goes by, the cooling requirement just increases. We went from ambiant air cooling, to an heatsink, to active air cooling with bigger and bigger heatsink.

If we were willing to compromise, tiny desktop computers could be the norm, like something roughly equivalent to a Mac studio. Not a charts topper but powerfull enough to work and play within reason. But no, (especially when it comes to GPU) we want impressive graphics, high refresh rate, high resolution, all the while being quiet, and software workarounds are being shunned by many tech enthuisiast. This is the "PC gaming master race" not "compromise land". Make 1440p the high-end target, you'll see people say that GPU makers are lacking ambitions.

It's easy to say for a CPU that it's "fast enough" even if you limit it. The same can rarely be said about a GPU. Unless we figure out a novel way to make them...

 

[Onasi]

The PC wants to do it locally. Every other device that got shrunk over time, is aimed at doing things in the cloud. Even laptops; they're not equipped with sufficient storage to carry everything on local disk. To 'complete' a workflow on a laptop, you're generally looking at some external influence, whether peripherals, data, whatever.

Does it, though? How many tasks, apart from gaming (if we forget the Cloud Gaming attempts), are actually required to be local for CONSUMER PCs nowadays? Even many 3D artists I know prefer renting compute farms for their projects rather than building their own monster rigs. Storage, if you really want it local, is better done via NAS than cramming HDDs inside your case. You might say “video editing”, but Apple has shown that it’s more a function of proper acceleration and optimization rather than brute power with their M chips. Of course, nobody stops one from building a full-tower with insane specs, but that’s really not what the market should revolve around, methinks.

GPU sizes have increased over the last decade because we are no longer limited by production node. A GTX 780ti could only overclock so far. Newer nodes can clock higher, and handle higher power use, the major issue today is not clock speeds, it's thermal output, and thats why GPU coolers have gotten big, to handle the heat and also to run quieter then ever before. Even small cases today like the dan A4 can handle long triple slot GPUs. So...why not make em that way? The only market this doesnt really benefit is the LP community, but considering we got the 4060LP this year, even we're doing great!

I feel like you are looking at it backwards. The size increase is caused by the increase in power pumped into the chip. Which is itself caused by the fact that new nodes are slower to come online and seem to have a less prominent potential performance effect. So, in order to compensate and win the numbers game, every modern GPU is pushed near its limit to eke out every drop of performance. Which causes more heat to be produced. Which causes coolers to explode in size. Thus a vicious cycle is born.
By the way, you do realize that the size of modern GPUs is technically a violation of the PCI-E AIB spec? It used to be that both NV and AMD at least tried to stick to it with their reference models. Now, that’s gone.

 

[HOkay]

If you dont get it, then maybe we should ask you. How big is to big? Is dedicating a room of your house to a PC ala eniac totally fine as long as they are ICs instead of vac tubes? Anything for progress?

I'll take the bait on this one, I'm in the camp of just wanting better performance & not really caring that bigger GPUs suck more power. It's a never ending game, you could say what if GPUs could do 4k 240Hz in the very latest AAA titles on max settings, would you still want more? No I wouldn't. But you'll never get to that state because devs will crank up the details some more, & that's what I personally want.
Thinking about where I'd draw my line, I think as long as it fits in a standard full size case then I'm definitely not complaining...oh I know where my limit is - being able to power it from a standard plug socket. I'm in the UK so we've got a bit more headroom on that front, but as long as my PC sits under 3kW then I wouldn't be complaining too much. I'd have to mount it outside with cables through the walls, but I'd probably do it if I got noticeably better graphics! Is the future external wall mounted AC unit style cases...?

 

[Tomgang]

In my opinion real SFF cards are low profile cards like Asus rtx 4060 LP RBK i have my self and the wider but cards but still only have a single fan in stead.

For those remembering EVGA Kingpins cards. Here is a RTX ADA 4000 SFF card modified with a kingpin inspiret like cooler and modified power. Actually a pretty cool mod on this card.

 

[Noyand]

Does it, though? How many tasks, apart from gaming (if we forget the Cloud Gaming attempts), are actually required to be local for CONSUMER PCs nowadays? Even many 3D artists I know prefer renting compute farms for their projects rather than building their own monster rigs. Storage, if you really want it local, is better done via NAS than cramming HDDs inside your case. You might say “video editing”, but Apple has shown that it’s more a function of proper acceleration and optimization rather than brute power with their M chips. Of course, nobody stops one from building a full-tower with insane specs, but that’s really not what the market should revolve around, methinks.

Renting compute farms works for a final render, but for look development? You are still going to do that locally, cloud farms are a bit tedious to use since you need to package the whole project and send it to their server, it's not a direct plug that's rendering through your software. VFX studios are also moving to cloud rendering for the final frames, but the workstations are still beefy enough to allow the artist to get a decent preview of what they are working on (especially stuff like physics simulation) . Using the cloud all the time is a waste of time, and eventually of money.

Unreal Engine is also gaining traction for 3D motion graphics.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Seems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do. I suppose this is better than nothing, but I was hoping for something more around LP cards, or "ITX" size/ length cards

Top card shown below fits NVidia's new SFF guidelines, with the 4060 LP under it. And an ITX sized card pictured for good measure.

View attachment 349682

View attachment 349681

I'm really liking the 4060LP. Half the battle is getting a decent PSU with good wattage to fit a sub 7L SFF case. HDPLEX 250w is a very convenient size but I wish they made a 500w one compatible with Flex PSU mounting for some of those smaller ITX cases that are designed around Flex ATX and need the PSU to be shorter.

I managed to squeeze a HDPLEX 250w into InWin Chopin Max as a replacement PSU.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

If you dont get it, then maybe we should ask you. How big is to big? Is dedicating a room of your house to a PC ala eniac totally fine as long as they are ICs instead of vac tubes? Anything for progress?

Size is relative to performance. Everyone has a preferred PC size, many are willing to built ATX sized computers for the best cooling and performance money can buy, and others want a PC that fits in a handbag.

So long as it can be built, and works properly, then I see no need to place artificial restrictions on size. One could easily place those restrictions on anything, say the cooler master haf X or 360mm AIO coolers, and claim those are "too unreasonable" for the market. Now, the 4090 is pushing the limits with its size breaking PCBs, but that IMO largely falls to the design not putting enough stress on the case itself and the outdated ATX design not allowing for better bracing like some OEM systems have used since the 90s. If you dont like the 4090's size and power use....then dont buy it. The 4070ti is sitting over there and is perfect for your dual slot sub 300w needs. There's a dual slot 4080 out there and even an undervolted 4090 dual slot. If the 4090 was only a 300w dual slot part, then it wouldnt be a 4090. Itd be a 4070ti

You look on the forums here, and the amount of, frankly, immature bitching and whining about the 4080 being a 4070ti and how "nvidia is milking us" when ADA released because the 4080 was a 104 chip not a 102 or 103; can you IMAGINE the meltdown people would have had if they called the 4070ti a 4090 to meet this arbitrary "no more then 2 slot GPU" size? People would have had coronaries screeching into their monitors for weeks on end!

To me, IMO, this issue boils down to the PC audience being far too cynical and negative that things are not like they were when they grew up, when a high end GPU was $500 and $5 bought you a full meal at McDs. When I ask people what they think should be, they either deflect, or they respond with "well nvidia should make a 4090 that only pulls 250w, has a dual slot cooler, and costs less then $1000" then react negatively when you point out that they described a 4070ti.

IDK man. It comes across to me as just people whining to whine over something they cant afford while pontificating about how the hobby SHOULD fit their view of the world, rather then the world that exists. I didnt like the 4090, so instead of buying one, I didnt buy one and moved on. Bought a 6800xt instead, love it.

I feel like you are looking at it backwards. The size increase is caused by the increase in power pumped into the chip.

It's not just power use. It's thermal density. Look at the 200+ watt power use of a FX 9590, then look at the temps people were hitting on 360mm AIO cooling, compared to a modern intel I7 hitting the same power workload. You'd think the i7s were just broken. Modern transistors dont leak nearly as much as older ones, which as a by product, means that getting heat out has gotten significantly harder.

Which is itself caused by the fact that new nodes are slower to come online and seem to have a less prominent potential performance effect. So, in order to compensate and win the numbers game, every modern GPU is pushed near its limit to eke out every drop of performance. Which causes more heat to be produced. Which causes coolers to explode in size. Thus a vicious cycle is born.
By the way, you do realize that the size of modern GPUs is technically a violation of the PCI-E AIB spec? It used to be that both NV and AMD at least tried to stick to it with their reference models. Now, that’s gone.

I'd like to point out, as a matter of course, that the 4090 not only significantly outperforms the 3090ti across the board, but also pulls significantly less power. Nvidia isnt just "shoving more power in and hope it works", there's a lot of optimization going on int he background. Just like with maxwell on 28nm.

I'm really liking the 4060LP. Half the battle is getting a decent PSU with good wattage to fit a sub 7L SFF case. HDPLEX 250w is a very convenient size but I wish they made a 500w one compatible with Flex PSU mounting for some of those smaller ITX cases that are designed around Flex ATX and need the PSU to be shorter.

I managed to squeeze a HDPLEX 250w into InWin Chopin Max as a replacement PSU.

Oh boy do I have GOOD NEWS for you.

They DO have a 500w supply. Listed right under that 250w supply you linked to. Same form factor, just thicker.

HDPLEX 500W GaN AIO ATX Power Supply

Free Shipping Worldwide Stock Status USA : In Stock Germany : In stock Asia : In Stock UK : In StockAustralia: In stock

hdplex.com

You could probably 3d print a flex ATX to HDPLEX mount.

I too love my 4060LP, and I hope it sells well enough that we get better chips. a LP 4060ti 16GB int he form of the 5060 would be sweet. Or better yet, 1-2 generations later, the RTX 6/7000 series LP card will be powerful enough that I can retire my big desktop and get by solely on a LP setup.

 

[Garrus]

Do you know the ATX Fractal Meshify can barely fit some of these SFF cards. This is meaningless. They aren't actually pushing for new smaller and stronger cards. It is just a rebrand for all the 300mm ones versus the 310+ ones.

 

[starfals]

If i managed to put a 360 Aio and a huge GPU in my ancient and huge Cooler Master HAF X case... i better be able to put anything from the 50 series in it too.

 

[Onasi]

I'd like to point out, as a matter of course, that the 4090 not only significantly outperforms the 3090ti across the board, but also pulls significantly less power. Nvidia isnt just "shoving more power in and hope it works", there's a lot of optimization going on int he background. Just like with maxwell on 28nm.

The 4090 is overall significantly more efficient than the 3090Ti, true. The latter is also based on a notoriously scuffed Samsung 8nm, so I am not sure it’s a stellar comparison.

It's not just power use. It's thermal density. Look at the 200+ watt power use of a FX 9590, then look at the temps people were hitting on 360mm AIO cooling, compared to a modern intel I7 hitting the same power workload. You'd think the i7s were just broken. Modern transistors dont leak nearly as much as older ones, which as a by product, means that getting heat out has gotten significantly harder.

That’s true, however it’s not like modern CPUs are THAT much harder to cool. If we take your example - in identical workload the i7 will complete said workload far faster than the 9590 and will return to idle, making it more thermally efficient. And during said load, well, I just dug around some old posts and the 9590 was running at about 70-ish degrees on a full load with a NH-D15. So, a maximum heat load of 220 W (chips TDP). A 14700K with a same cooler under a same load runs at… 75-80 degrees. Is it hotter? Sure. But it’s a far cry from going in just three generations from a 1080 that can be easily cooled by a dual-fan dual-slot cooler to a 4080 which… cannot. And again, ultimately the modern i7 would be so much faster that it still would be at a thermal advantage.
And before you bring up modern Zen, while thermal density absolutely plays a role in those CPUs running quite hot (or, rather, being hard to cool effectively), the main issue currently is the IHS and the… debatable decision of designing it around cooler compatibility.

Overall, I don’t think we are in disagreement on a factual basis. This seems to me more like a difference in philosophy. You seem to be arguing that progress demands the current design direction. I am more inclined to believe that saner design decisions should be made, even at a cost of absolute performance if need be.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

The 4090 is overall significantly more efficient than the 3090Ti, true. The latter is also based on a notoriously scuffed Samsung 8nm, so I am not sure it’s a stellar comparison.

Fair enough, but TSMC 5nm isnt THAT big of a jump from samsung 8nm. It's not like the 32-22 jump, or the 90-65 jump of years gone by.

That’s true, however it’s not like modern CPUs are THAT much harder to cool. If we take your example - in identical workload the i7 will complete said workload far faster than the 9590 and will return to idle, making it more thermally efficient. And during said load, well, I just dug around some old posts and the 9590 was running at about 70-ish degrees on a full load with a NH-D15. So, a maximum heat load of 220 W (chips TDP). A 14700K with a same cooler under a same load runs at… 75-80 degrees. Is it hotter? Sure. But it’s a far cry from going in just three generations from a 1080 that can be easily cooled by a dual-fan dual-slot cooler to a 4080 which… cannot. And again, ultimately the modern i7 would be so much faster that it still would be at a thermal advantage.

And if you put a water cooler on those chips, the i7 will STILL run 75-80c under full load, whereas the FX could push down into the 50c range. IDK why you bring performance into this, thermal efficiency in workloads has nothing to do with my point.

The 1080 left quite a bit of OC performance on the table, which the 4080 did not. Fully OC a 1080 and most of the smaller coolers, while still working, would get rather loud. Which people greatly dislike. The only solution to this is either a bigger heatsink or a smaller chip, which misses the point completely.

It also plays into my point about nodes being a limiting factor. Pascal's 1080 was only 314mm2, compared to 379mm2 for the 4080. the 1080ti topped out at 471mm2 while the 4090 is a monsterous 609mm2. We never saw how demanding a 550+mm2 pascal chip would have been on cooling, something tells me it wouldnt have been dual slot.

And before you bring up modern Zen, while thermal density absolutely plays a role in those CPUs running quite hot (or, rather, being hard to cool effectively), the main issue currently is the IHS and the… debatable decision of designing it around cooler compatibility.

With zen 4, yes. Zen 3's IHS isnt an issue, its just the effect of thermal density in action.

Overall, I don’t think we are in disagreement on a factual basis. This seems to me more like a difference in philosophy. You seem to be arguing that progress demands the current design direction. I am more inclined to believe that saner design decisions should be made, even at a cost of absolute performance if need be.

So, like I keep saying, the 4070ti? Isnt that what a 4070ti is? Why the insistence that the 4090 should have been limited to the 4070ti design wise? Why not just buy a 4070ti and ignore the 4090?

And hell, look how PISSED people got that the 4070ti was going to be the 4080. Can you IMAGINE if nvidia made a 4090 that was 4070ti level, GA104 chip and all? People would have blown gaskets and had heart attacks over it.

Or, for the sake of argument, they made the 4090 and under-clocked the snot out of it to make it a reliably 250w chip yield wise. You'd have forums full of buyers complaining that nvidia left so much performance on the table, looking for larger 3rd party heatsinks for their GPUs so they could have the performance the chip should have had originally, all while the 4090 was tying with a 7900xt in benchmarks. Is that preferable?

 

[Onasi]

Fair enough, but TSMC 5nm isnt THAT big of a jump from samsung 8nm. It's not like the 32-22 jump, or the 90-65 jump of years gone by.

Not talking about the jump here. Merely pointing out that Samsung had issues with thermals and power. There is more to a node than just sheer transistor density.

And if you put a water cooler on those chips, the i7 will STILL run 75-80c under full load, whereas the FX could push down into the 50c range. IDK why you bring performance into this, thermal efficiency in workloads has nothing to do with my point.

No, it will not? With a 360 AIO it would drop to 65-70 easily. So the difference will keep being the same. And I bring performance into this because talking about CPU temps in a vacuum is pointless. They don’t run at 100% at all times. Often not even prolonged times.

The 1080 left quite a bit of OC performance on the table, which the 4080 did not. Fully OC a 1080 and most of the smaller coolers, while still working, would get rather loud. Which people greatly dislike. The only solution to this is either a bigger heatsink or a smaller chip, which misses the point completely.

Yes. And that’s what I meant by a philosophical disagreement. I would be fine with cards being left with “lower performance” out of the box for the sake of not having a brick to deal with. Those who want to extract more can do it at their leisure.

It also plays into my point about nodes being a limiting factor. Pascal's 1080 was only 314mm2, compared to 379mm2 for the 4080. the 1080ti topped out at 471mm2 while the 4090 is a monsterous 609mm2. We never saw how demanding a 550+mm2 pascal chip would have been on cooling, something tells me it wouldnt have been dual slot.

So, like I keep saying, the 4070ti? Isnt that what a 4070ti is? Why the insistence that the 4090 should have been limited to the 4070ti design wise? Why not just buy a 4070ti and ignore the 4090?

And hell, look how PISSED people got that the 4070ti was going to be the 4080. Can you IMAGINE if nvidia made a 4090 that was 4070ti level. People would have blown gaskets and had heart attacks over it

I have no idea why you keep bringing up the 4090. I haven’t mentioned it once, I don’t care what the halo cards do. They can be as stupid as they want with them. But yes, the 4070Ti is still burdened by a ridiculous cooler for the vast majority of the models and that’s where I take issue. Even the “SFF” models in NVidias list are nothing like what actual SFF cards should be.

Or, for the sake of argument, they made the 4090 and under-clocked the snot out of it to make it a reliably 250w chip yield wise. You'd have forums full of buyers complaining that nvidia left so much performance on the table, looking for larger 3rd party heatsinks for their GPUs so they could have the performance the chip should have had originally, all while the 4090 was tying with a 7900xt in benchmarks. Is that preferable?

That checks out, yeah. That’s what I would have preferred, caveat being replacing the 4090 in the analogy with 4080 and below. As mentioned above, the halo card can be as ridiculous as they want. Complaints of the buyers in this case means complaints by enthusiasts, which is a tiny minority. The vast majority would not have cared.

But I feel like the thread has been derailed enough. I’ve made my point known, you made yours. We are at an impasse since, as I keep saying, it’s a difference in philosophy, which is fundamentally unresolvable.

 

[kapone32]

what I dont understand is why people are so upset over the card being 3 or 4 slots.

Like....you guys have ATX cases. They have 7 slots. You dont use sound cards anymore, you dont use separate network cards, Controller cards? LMFAO no. 99% of "gaming PCs" are full of empty space.

Do people really want 72dba blowers back? Just to safeguard the empty space in their PC? The mini ITX guys I understand, because "mini ITX" used to mean sub 10L PCs, but have bloated to hold these big GPUs. But then, go buy that 2 slot jet engine 4080 and be happy? I seem to remember this exact same back and foth during the Thermi days, with people insisting the 480 was too much and 300w GPUs were way too power hungry and dual slot coolers were obnoxiously big and everything used to be single slot and blah blah blah.

Well you could also install storage in the x16 slots

 

[JWNoctis]

Might just as well go the other way around, and make a new standard of expansion card form-factor/laptop-ish/sub-ITX/NUC/what-have-you motherboard that fits right behind a full-sized graphic card via a riser cable. Build the rest of the system around the card, since that's what's been going on for a while anyway. Heck, maybe just integrate a Lunar Lake-type SoC into the card. TDP on those are more or less an afterthought compared to the GPU in any case.

And put a skeleton case around it. Current graphic cards are not all that large, if the rest of the system would not be (often much) larger.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Oh boy do I have GOOD NEWS for you.

They DO have a 500w supply. Listed right under that 250w supply you linked to. Same form factor, just thicker.

HDPLEX 500W GaN AIO ATX Power Supply

Free Shipping Worldwide Stock Status USA : In Stock Germany : In stock Asia : In Stock UK : In StockAustralia: In stock

hdplex.com

You could probably 3d print a flex ATX to HDPLEX mount.

I too love my 4060LP, and I hope it sells well enough that we get better chips. a LP 4060ti 16GB int he form of the 5060 would be sweet. Or better yet, 1-2 generations later, the RTX 6/7000 series LP card will be powerful enough that I can retire my big desktop and get by solely on a LP setup.

Yea I know it exits. Here you can see it's odd size compared to 1U Flex ATX with 3.9L ITX case.

Here is a size comparison with InWin Chopin Max. I blew the Chopin 200w PSU by accident with my 5950x.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Well you could also install storage in the x16 slots

Yeah, you CAN, just like you can install sound cards or network cards. But almost nobody actually does anymore. And since the vast majority of builds are still full ATX, that would mean you could use 3 slots for storage, fitting in something like 12 M.2 drives, and still hold a 4 slot 4090.

I have no idea why you keep bringing up the 4090. I haven’t mentioned it once, I don’t care what the halo cards do. They can be as stupid as they want with them. But yes, the 4070Ti is still burdened by a ridiculous cooler for the vast majority of the models and that’s where I take issue. Even the “SFF” models in NVidias list are nothing like what actual SFF cards should be.

Mainly because, here and elsewhere, when this subject comes up people bring up the 4080 and 4090. You're the first one to even type "4070" in response.

You're right in that the 4070ti could be pretty easy to make a true 2 slot card with, given the temps most run at now. But since noise rains supreme, and short of some older ITX cases most can take a 2.5 slot card without issue, thats what the whole industry defaults to, especially as sales decline slowly. Even going back to pascal, cards maintaining 65-70c and 30~ dba at full load was just unheard of. They were either pushing over 40 dba or over 80c at full load.

I would like to see more ITX sized cards, for computers like the deskmeet X600 that would be a really neat build if there were GPUs that fit. A 4070ti would fit, if theyd build it.

That checks out, yeah. That’s what I would have preferred, caveat being replacing the 4090 in the analogy with 4080 and below. As mentioned above, the halo card can be as ridiculous as they want. Complaints of the buyers in this case means complaints by enthusiasts, which is a tiny minority. The vast majority would not have cared.

But I feel like the thread has been derailed enough. I’ve made my point known, you made yours. We are at an impasse since, as I keep saying, it’s a difference in philosophy, which is fundamentally unresolvable.

Fair enough.

 

[kapone32]

Yeah, you CAN, just like you can install sound cards or network cards. But almost nobody actually does anymore. And since the vast majority of builds are still full ATX, that would mean you could use 3 slots for storage, fitting in something like 12 M.2 drives, and still hold a 4 slot 4090.

Mainly because, here and elsewhere, when this subject comes up people bring up the 4080 and 4090. You're the first one to even type "4070" in response.

You're right in that the 4070ti could be pretty easy to make a true 2 slot card with, given the temps most run at now. But since noise rains supreme, and short of some older ITX cases most can take a 2.5 slot card without issue, thats what the whole industry defaults to, especially as sales decline slowly. Even going back to pascal, cards maintaining 65-70c and 30~ dba at full load was just unheard of. They were either pushing over 40 dba or over 80c at full load.

I would like to see more ITX sized cards, for computers like the deskmeet X600 that would be a really neat build if there were GPUs that fit. A 4070ti would fit, if theyd build it.


Fair enough.

I can understand that but your logic is a little flawed with MBs that actually support up to 4 slots on the GPU. It is only when you vertically mount your GPU that you lose access to those slots. Some high end boards even come with expansion cards for the 2nd slot.

 

[Ruru]

Seems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do. I suppose this is better than nothing, but I was hoping for something more around LP cards, or "ITX" size/ length cards

Top card shown below fits NVidia's new SFF guidelines, with the 4060 LP under it. And an ITX sized card pictured for good measure.

View attachment 349682

View attachment 349681

My thoughts exactly. For me, a SFF machine means a low-profile one, not one where you can stuff a normal-sized card.

 

[gffermari]

LOL
What kind of a joke is this?
So my AP201 is SFF case now?!!!

Anyway, that's pointless statements from the greens. They don't have a clue about what SFF is or they try to reinvent it with 2.5 slot gpus and mATX cases!!

 

[AusWolf]

That's not SFF. This is SFF!

 

[Vayra86]

Does it, though? How many tasks, apart from gaming (if we forget the Cloud Gaming attempts), are actually required to be local for CONSUMER PCs nowadays? Even many 3D artists I know prefer renting compute farms for their projects rather than building their own monster rigs. Storage, if you really want it local, is better done via NAS than cramming HDDs inside your case. You might say “video editing”, but Apple has shown that it’s more a function of proper acceleration and optimization rather than brute power with their M chips. Of course, nobody stops one from building a full-tower with insane specs, but that’s really not what the market should revolve around, methinks.

Well you gave those examples and directly added how they're fixed. And that is why many PCs that used to be doing all things locally, are laptops now, aren't they? The market has already diversified quite a bit I think, but losing a form factor's in that race to me, feels like losing part of that diversification. Its not a good thing. Its the same as losing cash money, and only being able to pay digitally. Control is lost. As long as there is a segment of the market still forcing it to remain in existence, that also opens up the path for everyone else to get back to it should it be required.

 

[A Computer Guy]

My thoughts exactly. For me, a SFF machine means a low-profile one, not one where you can stuff a normal-sized card.

I thought it comes down to the Liters? In my mind under 7L is approaching SFF but I suppose you could put it on a scale.

20L - Ultra Massive SFF
14L - Large SFF
10L - Medium SFF
8L - Balanced SFF
6L - Small SFF
4L - Tiny SFF
2L - Ultra Tiny SFF
<1L - CIA level SFF

Notes: this scale excludes external power bricks, external GPU's, and external radiators.

 

[SestoPT]

NVIDIA definition of SFF is plain stupid.....
how is 30 cm long SFF????????

SFF is 5L or less... all the rest above that range (5-15L) are just downsized mATX cases to me....

You can EASILY (ZERO mods needed) build a SFF computer today, with a 7800x3d and a RTX 4070 (LESS than 175mm long) in a 4 liter case !!! With some mods you might even fit some RTX 4070 Super's in it....
PLUS, pretty soon, you will have 4080's that fit into those kind of SFF cases (175mm long)

Gainward RTX 4080 Phoenix GS PCB​

​

Just imagine, having a computer that is BARELY bigger than a regular ATX PSU with a x3d chip and a 4080 in it.... That is the ULTIMATE DREAM MACHINE !!!!


All this without going into SHADY (and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS) kinds of PSU's... (pico psu's, i'm looking at you....)

That is REAL SFF !!!
Not this NVIDIA bullshit definition of SFF......

 

[SestoPT]

I'm really liking the 4060LP. Half the battle is getting a decent PSU with good wattage to fit a sub 7L SFF case. HDPLEX 250w is a very convenient size but I wish they made a 500w one compatible with Flex PSU mounting for some of those smaller ITX cases that are designed around Flex ATX and need the PSU to be shorter.

I managed to squeeze a HDPLEX 250w into InWin Chopin Max as a replacement PSU.

You do understand, 7 liter cases, are "massive" for today's real SFF cases...
There are LITERALLY tons of PSU's, that can easily fit into "such a large case"........ (Basically there exists HUNDREDS of Flex ATX psu's companies, and many of those hundreds, have many models, so basically there might be more than 1000 diferent flex atx psu's than can fit into a 7 ltr case.............)
7 liter cases, literally can even take MUCH LARGER SFX psu's..........

There are RTX4090's that can fit into those 7 ltr cases.... so no, it is not a SFF case IMHO !!!
Hell it's EVEN POSSIBLE, to fit a 4090 into a 5 liter case (albeit watercooled ofc.....)

Log - *complete* S4MAX'23 / World's smallest 4090 build: Brickless 5l S4Mini, 4090FE, 7950X3D, 800W, water cooled

It looks like this is happening - and about 5 minutes on Google tell me that no one crammed a 4090 into a 5l case as of yet so until someone proves me wrong I'll go with this rather bold headline! After quite some pondering over the basics and some preliminary testing, I'm reasonably confident...

smallformfactor.net

If you were talking less than 4 liter, i would understand...

 

[Macro Device]

Just imagine, having a computer that is BARELY bigger than a regular ATX PSU with a x3d chip and a 4080 in it.... That is the ULTIMATE DREAM MACHINE !!!!