• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Works with Microsoft to Improve Zen 3 thru Zen 5 Performance in Windows 11 24H2

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
47,233 (7.55/day)
Location
Hyderabad, India
System Name RBMK-1000
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700G
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming
Cooling DeepCool Gammax L240 V2
Memory 2x 8GB G.Skill Sniper X
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER GameRock
Storage Western Digital Black NVMe 512GB
Display(s) BenQ 1440p 60 Hz 27-inch
Case Corsair Carbide 100R
Audio Device(s) ASUS SupremeFX S1220A
Power Supply Cooler Master MWE Gold 650W
Mouse ASUS ROG Strix Impact
Keyboard Gamdias Hermes E2
Software Windows 11 Pro
AMD Ryzen 9000 "Granite Ridge" desktop processors have been out for a couple of weeks now, and the "Zen 5" based processors have fallen short of gaming performance expectations, set mainly by some of the numbers AMD put out in its Computex 2024 reveal for the processors. The consensus among the tech press is that these processors are roughly 3-5% faster than Ryzen 7000 series "Raphael," but with noteworthy improvements in energy efficiency. AMD set out to study why there are such vast deltas in performance between its numbers and those of reviews, and arrived a few possible explanations. The company also stated that it is working with Microsoft to fix this in the next major update to Windows 11.

One of them is that AMD's testing was done on Windows 11 23H2 with Admin mode (i.e. a local system administrator account was used), while some reviewers tested with a regular user account that has some admin privileges. Apparently this affects the way the branch prediction units of "Zen 5" processors work. "Our automated test methodology was run in "Admin" mode which produced results that reflect branch prediction code optimizations not present in the version of Windows reviewers used to test Ryzen 9000 Series," AMD said in a statement.



AMD also pointed out that in its first-party tests that compare Ryzen 9000 series processor models to Intel's, the company ran the 14th Gen Core chips with the same DDR5-6000 memory speed with the same timings, and used Intel's baseline power profile that uses stock power limits for these processors (125 W base- and 252 W maximum turbo power in case of the Core i9-14900K and the i7-14700K, for example).

AMD said that it's working with Microsoft to bring the "correct" branch prediction behavior seen in admin mode to regular Windows 11 user accounts. These updates will be incorporated in the retail release of Windows 24H2, although you won't have to wait until then. Microsoft will release this as an "optional update" sooner than that, so it could be implemented on Windows 11 23H2. Here's the best part—it turns out that the admin mode discrepancy even affects "Zen 4" and "Zen 3" processors, which means even Ryzen 5000 thru Ryzen 7000 series processors should get a performance uplift in regular Windows 11 user accounts.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site | Source
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
6,881 (1.47/day)
Location
Florida
System Name natr0n-PC
Processor Ryzen 5950x-5600x | 9600k
Motherboard B450 AORUS M | Z390 UD
Cooling EK AIO 360 - 6 fan action | AIO
Memory Patriot - Viper Steel DDR4 (B-Die)(4x8GB) | Samsung DDR4 (4x8GB)
Video Card(s) EVGA 3070ti FTW
Storage Various
Display(s) Pixio PX279 Prime
Case Thermaltake Level 20 VT | Black bench
Audio Device(s) LOXJIE D10 + Kinter Amp + 6 Bookshelf Speakers Sony+JVC+Sony
Power Supply Super Flower Leadex III ARGB 80+ Gold 650W | EVGA 700 Gold
Software XP/7/8.1/10
Benchmark Scores http://valid.x86.fr/79kuh6
modern windows mostly 11 is a nightmare of hobbled together bit and pieces.

instead of improving and adding on it's breaking and repairing what was fine and working
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
2,352 (1.15/day)
Location
Olympia, WA
System Name Sleepy Painter
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asus TuF Gaming X570-PLUS/WIFI
Cooling FSP Windale 6 - Passive
Memory 2x16GB F4-3600C16-16GVKC @ 16-19-21-36-58-1T
Video Card(s) MSI RX580 8GB
Storage 2x Samsung PM963 960GB nVME RAID0, Crucial BX500 1TB SATA, WD Blue 3D 2TB SATA
Display(s) Microboard 32" Curved 1080P 144hz VA w/ Freesync
Case NZXT Gamma Classic Black
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D1
Power Supply Rosewill 1KW on 240V@60hz
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legend
Keyboard Red Dragon K552
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC 1809 17763.1757
When/If there's an LTSC IoT Ent. version of 24H2+, maybe I'd put Win11 back on my rig. MAYBE.

Then again, I wonder if WIn10LTSCEntIoT even has such issues that need addressing?
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
6,881 (1.47/day)
Location
Florida
System Name natr0n-PC
Processor Ryzen 5950x-5600x | 9600k
Motherboard B450 AORUS M | Z390 UD
Cooling EK AIO 360 - 6 fan action | AIO
Memory Patriot - Viper Steel DDR4 (B-Die)(4x8GB) | Samsung DDR4 (4x8GB)
Video Card(s) EVGA 3070ti FTW
Storage Various
Display(s) Pixio PX279 Prime
Case Thermaltake Level 20 VT | Black bench
Audio Device(s) LOXJIE D10 + Kinter Amp + 6 Bookshelf Speakers Sony+JVC+Sony
Power Supply Super Flower Leadex III ARGB 80+ Gold 650W | EVGA 700 Gold
Software XP/7/8.1/10
Benchmark Scores http://valid.x86.fr/79kuh6
When/If there's an LTSC IoT Ent. version of 24H2+, maybe I'd put Win11 back on my rig. MAYBE.

Then again, I wonder if WIn10LTSCEntIoT even has such issues that need addressing?
I'm using that now actually. everything works. I disabled just about everything that updates.

average person can use this without any issues.

natr0n os.PNG
 

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,115 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
modern windows mostly 11 is a nightmare of hobbled together bit and pieces.

instead of improving and adding on it's breaking and repairing what was fine and working
Its a continuation of 10, which still is a hobbled mess
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
2,352 (1.15/day)
Location
Olympia, WA
System Name Sleepy Painter
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asus TuF Gaming X570-PLUS/WIFI
Cooling FSP Windale 6 - Passive
Memory 2x16GB F4-3600C16-16GVKC @ 16-19-21-36-58-1T
Video Card(s) MSI RX580 8GB
Storage 2x Samsung PM963 960GB nVME RAID0, Crucial BX500 1TB SATA, WD Blue 3D 2TB SATA
Display(s) Microboard 32" Curved 1080P 144hz VA w/ Freesync
Case NZXT Gamma Classic Black
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D1
Power Supply Rosewill 1KW on 240V@60hz
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legend
Keyboard Red Dragon K552
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC 1809 17763.1757
I don't see how it could include an updated branch predictor that AMD posted info about eight hours ago?
I don't know if Win11's branch prediction regressed, or not. I assume so, but I'm not certain.
-if older was already better, there wouldn't be any need for a new fix/update/component. (which, wouldn't be the first time such has happened.)
 
Joined
May 22, 2024
Messages
411 (2.21/day)
System Name Kuro
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D@65W
Motherboard MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk WiFi
Cooling Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 EVO
Memory Corsair DDR5 6000C30 2x48GB (Hynix M)@6000 30-36-36-76 1.36V
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 RTX 4070 Ti SUPER 16G@200W
Storage Crucial T500 2TB + WD Blue 8TB
Case Lian Li LANCOOL 216
Power Supply MSI MPG A850G
Software Ubuntu 24.04 LTS + Windows 10 Home Build 19045
Benchmark Scores 17761 C23 Multi@65W
I don't know if Win11's branch prediction regressed, or not. I assume so, but I'm not certain.
-if older was already better, there wouldn't be any need for a new fix/update/component. (which, wouldn't be the first time such has happened.)
Another useful question might be, exactly how does the OS impact something as basic as branch prediction the way it did?

Though I guess the true answer is probably behind at minimum a couple NDAs and a graduate-level course in modern processor architecture.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
602 (0.14/day)
Processor Ryzen 9 3900x
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
Memory 32GB GSkill Ripjaws V 3600CL16
Video Card(s) 3060Ti FE 0.9v
Storage Samsung 970 EVO 1TB, 2x Samsung 840 EVO 1TB
Display(s) ASUS ProArt PA278QV
Case be quiet! Pure Base 500
Audio Device(s) Edifier R1850DB
Power Supply Super Flower Leadex III 650W
Mouse A4Tech X-748K
Keyboard Logitech K300
Software Win 10 Pro 64bit
Wonder how Zen5 is performing vs Zen4 in Win10, but I guess no one is testing outside of Win11 at this point.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
33 (0.01/day)
Location
Norway
System Name ExcaliBuR
Processor Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard Asus ROG STRIX X670E-I Gaming
Cooling Lian Li GA II LCD 280MM
Memory G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo 32GB x 2 6000C30
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon 7900 XTX Pulse!
Storage 2x4TB Samsung 990 Pro
Display(s) Samsung G8 OLED 34"
Case Ssupd Meshliciuos
Audio Device(s) Edifier SPIRIT STAX S3
Power Supply Corsair SF750
Mouse SteelSeries Aerox 3 Wireless
Keyboard Steelseries Apex Pro TKL Wireless
VR HMD HP Reverb G2
Software W11
Why don't they test in the "normal" user/"admin" enviroment, like most users use Windows.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
332 (0.31/day)
Location
Denmark
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 3800X
Motherboard ASUS Prime X470-Pro
Cooling bequiet! Dark Rock Slim
Memory 64 GB ECC DDR4 2666 MHz (Samsung M391A2K43BB1-CTD)
Video Card(s) eVGA GTX 1080 SC Gaming, 8 GB
Storage 1 TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus, 1 TB Samsung 850 EVO, 4 TB Lexar NM790, 12 TB WD HDDs
Display(s) Acer Predator XB271HU
Case Corsair Obsidian 550D
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty
Power Supply Seasonic X-Series 560W
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Glorious GMMK
When/If there's an LTSC IoT Ent. version of 24H2+, maybe I'd put Win11 back on my rig. MAYBE.

Then again, I wonder if WIn10LTSCEntIoT even has such issues that need addressing?
Probably yes.
I'm using that now actually. everything works. I disabled just about everything that updates.

average person can use this without any issues.

View attachment 360057
I guess the question isn't as much if you can use Win10 IoT LTSC, but if the bug exists in Win10 (in general) as well.
I don't see how it could include updated "branch prediction code optimizations" that AMD posted info about eight hours ago?
That's just it. Win10 probably suffers from the same bug.
Another useful question might be, exactly how does the OS impact something as basic as branch prediction the way it did?
Though I guess the true answer is probably behind at minimum a couple NDAs and a graduate-level course in modern processor architecture.
My guess is that it may have to do with context switching of sorts (user mode to/from kernel mode).
Wonder how Zen5 is performing vs Zen4 in Win10, but I guess no one is testing outside of Win11 at this point.
It's probably the same difference in performance. Problem is, no one bothers with Win 10 any longer, now that "shiny" Win11 needs to be pushed. Certainly no one at Microsoft.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
2,352 (1.15/day)
Location
Olympia, WA
System Name Sleepy Painter
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asus TuF Gaming X570-PLUS/WIFI
Cooling FSP Windale 6 - Passive
Memory 2x16GB F4-3600C16-16GVKC @ 16-19-21-36-58-1T
Video Card(s) MSI RX580 8GB
Storage 2x Samsung PM963 960GB nVME RAID0, Crucial BX500 1TB SATA, WD Blue 3D 2TB SATA
Display(s) Microboard 32" Curved 1080P 144hz VA w/ Freesync
Case NZXT Gamma Classic Black
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D1
Power Supply Rosewill 1KW on 240V@60hz
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legend
Keyboard Red Dragon K552
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC 1809 17763.1757
I guess the question isn't as much if you can use Win10 IoT LTSC, but if the bug exists in Win10 (in general) as well.
Does it really though, for "most users"?
At least by the L1T/Wendell vid, I got the jist that the issue revolves around 'virtualized security'. Is this even an issue at all for those not running VBS, Linux in Win10, HyperV, etc.?
 

tabascosauz

Moderator
Supporter
Staff member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
8,145 (2.37/day)
Location
Western Canada
System Name ab┃ob
Processor 7800X3D┃5800X3D
Motherboard B650E PG-ITX┃X570 Impact
Cooling NH-U12A + T30┃AXP120-x67
Memory 64GB 6400CL32┃32GB 3600CL14
Video Card(s) RTX 4070 Ti Eagle┃RTX A2000
Storage 8TB of SSDs┃1TB SN550
Case Caselabs S3┃Lazer3D HT5
When/If there's an LTSC IoT Ent. version of 24H2+, maybe I'd put Win11 back on my rig. MAYBE.

Then again, I wonder if WIn10LTSCEntIoT even has such issues that need addressing?

I think 24H2 IoT is technically just a preview at the moment. Seems to update and work just fine. Moved to it a few weeks ago because my usual 11 Pro just keeps on racking up integrity errors and breaking itself for no reason (other than Microsoft being Microsoft). Nothing in BIOS has been changed and this install is not breaking itself.

Knowing the optimizations in the past few years specifically for MPO and flip model, there's no way I would go back to anything earlier than 23H2, let alone Win10 for that matter. Even if it was LTSC.

But then again, Win10 never really had performance problems with bigger Zen 3 CPUs whereas Win11 has. So maybe for Zen 3 I'd just stick with Win10.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
332 (0.31/day)
Location
Denmark
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 3800X
Motherboard ASUS Prime X470-Pro
Cooling bequiet! Dark Rock Slim
Memory 64 GB ECC DDR4 2666 MHz (Samsung M391A2K43BB1-CTD)
Video Card(s) eVGA GTX 1080 SC Gaming, 8 GB
Storage 1 TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus, 1 TB Samsung 850 EVO, 4 TB Lexar NM790, 12 TB WD HDDs
Display(s) Acer Predator XB271HU
Case Corsair Obsidian 550D
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty
Power Supply Seasonic X-Series 560W
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Glorious GMMK
Does it really though, for "most users"?
At least by the L1T/Wendell vid, I got the jist that the issue revolves around 'virtualized security'. Is this even an issue at all for those not running VBS, Linux in Win10, HyperV, etc.?
Haven't seen the vid, so all I can go by are my own assumptions. VBS certainly sounds like a valid reason as well.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
3,329 (0.81/day)
Location
Athens, Greece
System Name 3 desktop systems: Gaming / Internet / HTPC
Processor Ryzen 5 5500 / Ryzen 5 4600G / FX 6300 (12 years latter got to see how bad Bulldozer is)
Motherboard MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max (1) / MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max (2) / Gigabyte GA-990XA-UD3
Cooling Νoctua U12S / Segotep T4 / Snowman M-T6
Memory 32GB - 16GB G.Skill RIPJAWS 3600+16GB G.Skill Aegis 3200 / 16GB JUHOR / 16GB Kingston 2400MHz (DDR3)
Video Card(s) ASRock RX 6600 + GT 710 (PhysX)/ Vega 7 integrated / Radeon RX 580
Storage NVMes, ONLY NVMes/ NVMes, SATA Storage / NVMe boot(Clover), SATA storage
Display(s) Philips 43PUS8857/12 UHD TV (120Hz, HDR, FreeSync Premium) ---- 19'' HP monitor + BlitzWolf BW-V5
Case Sharkoon Rebel 12 / CoolerMaster Elite 361 / Xigmatek Midguard
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply Chieftec 850W / Silver Power 400W / Sharkoon 650W
Mouse CoolerMaster Devastator III Plus / CoolerMaster Devastator / Logitech
Keyboard CoolerMaster Devastator III Plus / CoolerMaster Devastator / Logitech
Software Windows 10 / Windows 10&Windows 11 / Windows 10
why there are such vast deltas in performance between its numbers and those of reviews
This is really BS. Either the team running those benchmarks internally at AMD faked the numbers on their own, or the marketing department decided to fake the numbers, or Su herself asked from it's employees to create a presentation with fake data. If they believe that their numbers can be confirmed and that tech press haven't running Zen 5 systems at their optimal configuration, they could set a meeting with Gamers Nexus for example, call them at AMD's labs and show them how they got those numbers.
 
Joined
May 11, 2018
Messages
1,254 (0.52/day)
""Zen 5" based processors have fallen short of gaming performance expectations, set mainly by some of the numbers AMD put out in its Computex 2024 reveal for the processors."

I find it baffling that large thing like this (performance degradation with common Windows setup) is missed in testing the product before release.

They do test the product before release, right?
 

izy

Joined
Jun 30, 2022
Messages
1,014 (1.16/day)
Are they faster in WIN10 then?
Maybe if running the games/apps with "Run as administrator" will work the same as running them with the Administrator user?

I see that lately we have to update the BIOS each month and do a lot of tweaks in BIOS to get "stock" performance and stability (on Intel and AMD now) + OS tweaks! :)
 
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
81 (0.04/day)
Location
Larvik, Norway
When I have time, I´m gonna install Win 11 with VT disabled so that Windows runs on bare metal, then do some benching. Its been a while.
Win 11 Bare metal >= Future patch
Probably
 

wolf

Better Than Native
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
8,169 (1.27/day)
System Name MightyX
Processor Ryzen 9800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte X650I AX
Cooling Scythe Fuma 2
Memory 32GB DDR5 6000 CL30
Video Card(s) Asus TUF RTX3080 Deshrouded
Storage WD Black SN850X 2TB
Display(s) LG 42C2 4K OLED
Case Coolermaster NR200P
Audio Device(s) LG SN5Y / Focal Clear
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Corsair Dark Core RBG Pro SE
Keyboard Glorious GMMK Compact w/pudding
VR HMD Meta Quest 3
Software case populated with Artic P12's
Benchmark Scores 4k120 OLED Gsync bliss
Interesting, AMD can be quite communicative about issues when they want to be, last years simple question was met with "We have no comment at this time" for months, which is interesting given the relative complexity/simplicity of both situations.

Not holding my breath for large gains to be had from admin/scheduling fixes, but it's welcome that they're committed to trying to get people the touted performance.
 

izy

Joined
Jun 30, 2022
Messages
1,014 (1.16/day)
I was on BETA channel and i was still on 23H2 for some reason , i just switched to Windows Release Preview Channel and im getting the 24H2 , i thought that BETA is receiving updates faster than WRPC but it looks like it is behind.
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
3,486 (2.45/day)
Location
Slovenia
Processor i5-6600K
Motherboard Asus Z170A
Cooling some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar
Memory 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) IGP
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250GB
Display(s) 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200
Case Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh
Audio Device(s) E-mu 1212m PCI
Power Supply Seasonic G-360
Mouse Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse
Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
Its a continuation of 10, which still is a hobbled mess
At least 10 stopped receiving "feature" updates, so it can be considered stable now.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2021
Messages
374 (0.32/day)
Wonder how Zen5 is performing vs Zen4 in Win10, but I guess no one is testing outside of Win11 at this point.
It's been there ever since UAC I remember reading about it back in the day and everyone Benchmarked in Admin account I still benchmark in Admin account to this day I don't know how an entire community forgot this.
 
Top