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DOJ Issues Subpoena to NVIDIA as Antitrust Probe Intensifies

eidairaman1

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Nvidia's MO is conditioning supply on obedience and locking customers in. It's been something they've done with their AIB partners and customers for a long time now. I guess it took Nvidia doing the same to the AI market for regulators to finally notice.
Intel business practice right there too.
 
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This fake news is fake!

Nvidia has been known to force AIB partners into submission, no one cared about that.
Perhaps now it's hurting a congressmen's pocketbook.
 
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"Pissed off" might a stretch.. If NVidia broke the law, they are accountable and need to be roped in.
The problem is; the fines usually accosiated with breaking them are just a tap on the wrist for those breaking them, if I was the judge and jury, I would make the fine so big, that the company will only be able to afford operational costs and salaries for 3 years or so, before churning profits for their coffers again, I will hurt you so bad, so bad, you would never even think of trying that crap again as long as you live.
 
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"Pissed off" might a stretch.. If NVidia broke the law, they are accountable and need to be roped in.
Agreed however seems breaking the law has become somewhat subjective depending who is in charge and what chips (pun intended) they have on their shoulder these days. The ongoing love hate relationship between gov't and international corporate America is an interesting spectacle to see and when money gets flowing principals, consistency, and ethics seem to go out the window.
 
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It was always that way, hence the pardon for Nixon(?) IIRC. Politics always dictates policies & yes law, its interpretation, as well.
 
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I was the judge and jury, I would make the fine so big, that the company will only be able to afford operational costs and salaries for 3 years or so, before churning profits for their coffers again, I will hurt you so bad, so bad, you would never even think of trying that crap again as long as you live.
It would be great if the penalties had such an effect, being so severe that companies strive to avoid them.

chips (pun intended)
Nice!

It was always that way, hence the pardon for Nixon(?) IIRC. Politics always dictates policies & yes law, its interpretation, as well.
Sadly, you're not far off..
 

bug

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The problem is; the fines usually accosiated with breaking them are just a tap on the wrist for those breaking them, if I was the judge and jury, I would make the fine so big, that the company will only be able to afford operational costs and salaries for 3 years or so, before churning profits for their coffers again, I will hurt you so bad, so bad, you would never even think of trying that crap again as long as you live.
Yeah, %revenue penalties are almost as rare as the dodo. Yet, they're the only kind companies can't simply shrug off. Is there a $1mn penalty for dumping toxic waste over there? No problem, dump $2mn worth of waste and bank $1mn.
 
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They are still allowed to offer quantity discounts though, like any other business. Buy 20 accelerators, get one for free. Or get one switch for free. The more you buy, the more you save!
Are there legal restrictions in place that also limit their ability to do that?
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that's still allowed. Some of the behaviour that got Standard Oil in trouble is exhibited by Nvidia too:

threats to suppliers and distributors who did business with Standard's competitors.
 

bug

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It's all relative.

Back in the days of Netburst, PC builders would start looking at AMD chips. And then Intel would walk in and ask: how much business do you think you can get from AMD? About 10%. Ok, what if we gave you a 10% discount, so for every CPU you already get from us, you get the one you would get from AMD for free?

What Intel offered was just a discount, which isn't usually even frowned upon. It's all legalese from there.
 
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The problem is; the fines usually accosiated with breaking them are just a tap on the wrist for those breaking them, if I was the judge and jury, I would make the fine so big, that the company will only be able to afford operational costs and salaries for 3 years or so, before churning profits for their coffers again, I will hurt you so bad, so bad, you would never even think of trying that crap again as long as you live.


The simplest solution for a company too large and powerful is to forcibly break it up.

People have forgotten that in the year 1776, when the USA was founded (or at least, we declared our independence), companies were an act of congress. Each company had to be argued at Congress and proven before our representatives that the companies were worth creating. From the start of our country, the idea was that companies should be first-and-foremost, to the benefit of Americans.

Today, we have a more Libertarian slant (closer to the 1870s period), where we let companies go free and do whatever they like. But politics changes from decade to decade. Eventually, the country will once again realize that we can enforce laws, breakups and enact changes with a mere stroke of the pen to improve ourselves and the place we live in. Antitrust issues are just that. FBI may initiate them, but in our political system, they need our moral support for lasting change. People are scared of changing today's society, to a detriment. But the powers are always there. They've just been forgotten.


Its not really about the law per se. We have plenty of laws ready to challenge and breakup monopolies. Its that our country is largely afraid to use those laws in today's politics.

The first step, politically speaking, is to get everyone to agree that the #1 purpose of US Companies should be to benefit Americans. If a company is no longer useful (or worse: they're actively harming innovation or hampering us), then we need to think about how to reorganize those troublesome companies. Maybe even the "meta" argument is to teach today's voters and today's population that companies can be harmful to us AND we actually have laws + regulations that can fix those problems (when applied correctly).

-----------

That being said: FBI hasn't filed a case yet. FBI is just gathering evidence. We don't know what NVidia has done to catch the FBI's attention. And we might never know.

It's all relative.

Back in the days of Netburst, PC builders would start looking at AMD chips. And then Intel would walk in and ask: how much business do you think you can get from AMD? About 10%. Ok, what if we gave you a 10% discount, so for every CPU you already get from us, you get the one you would get from AMD for free?

What Intel offered was just a discount, which isn't usually even frowned upon. It's all legalese from there.

Bug knows what's up, but I think bug's post needs a bit more context.


1725547892998.png


This "discount move", bug described was determined to be an antitrust issue. Intel was then forbidden from doing that again.
 
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bug

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...
The first step, politically speaking, is to get everyone to agree that the #1 purpose of US Companies should be to benefit Americans.
...
That's the easy part. The hard part is defining "benefit". You get to choose between a company selling goods on their own terms or no company (and no goods) at all. Which is more beneficial.

The reason that power is not exercised more is not that it's forgotten about. It's because it's very risky to use. After all it's infinitely easier to tear stuff down than it is to build it up.
Another reason is context: do you want to go up against (for example) Chinese juggernauts, with state-backing with only small companies, all at other's throat? Would that benefit Americans more?
 
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Another reason is context: do you want to go up against (for example) Chinese juggernauts, with state-backing with only small companies, all at other's throat? Would that benefit Americans more?

Well lets consider the 00s Intel antitrust case again.

The correct move in the 00s was not to breakup Intel, but as you've seen... just issue an order saying that Intel isn't allowed to offer anticompetitive discounts that harm AMD anymore. And because of that, AMD survived and became a more innovative company two decades later. (Also force Intel to give a $Billion+ to AMD for damages).

I think that we all can agree that if AMD was destroyed in the 00s because of Intel's discounts... our country would be in a worse spot today. Relative to "Chinese Juggernauts" or not, China doesn't matter in the discussion at all. Protecting AMD from Intel's anticompetitive behavior is simply better for us regardless of what the future has to offer. And we all know how close AMD came to bankruptcy, just a little bit more anticompetitive behavior from Intel would have probably killed them.

------------

The only way we keep innovating as a country is by preventing the top-dogs in our country from preventing innovation. Eventually Intel takes a step back (like today), and we will be happier for having other investments in other smaller companies (like AMD) who can step in and pickup the slack.

Today, NVidia is the top dog in GPUs and advanced accelerators (like AI compute). There's also a huge number of competitors to NVidia, not just AMD for GPUs, but also plenty of Tensor chips, etc. etc. etc. We need to ensure that these other ideas and companies have a fair shot at the market.
 
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