Denuvo Blames Gamer Toxicity for DRM Protection Hate, Dismisses Performance Concerns

[Cpt.Jank]

Denuvo has taken its fair share of flak over the years for a variety of warranted and unwarranted reasons, but it looks like the company has finally decided to put its foot down, or at least try to. Recently, Denuvo started a Discord server, seemingly in an effort to address the gaming community's complaints about a variety of topics. These include alleged performance impacts and hardware degradation caused by its anti-piracy and DRM software commonly used in modern games. Needless to say the Denuvo Discord server was met with about as much enthusiasm as one might expect, and the Discord sever was shut down just two days after it opened. Although the server has since been resuscitated, the company has muted unapproved community members. Today, however, Rock Paper Shotgun published an interview with Denuvo's product manager, Andreas Ullmann, and in it, Ullmann goes on to defend Denuvo's existence and outright dismiss gamers' concerns about the anti-cheat and anti-piracy software.

Addressing a question about "toxicity" and oft-genuine concerns from gamers over the use of Denuvo anti-tamper and anti-cheat software, Ullmann seemingly implied that gamers are just upset because the software works, robbing gamers of the ability to simply play a game for free instead of paying full retail price. When asked directly about why Denuvo doesn't address the claims of performance hits to games that implement it, Ullmann placed the onus on game developers to perform those comparative tests, again calling the gaming and piracy community toxic in the response. He dismissed the idea of Denuvo or a third party performing comparative analysis of the impact of anti-tamper and anti-cheat software, citing intellectual property concerns and community mistrust for a lack of first-party testing. At the same time, Ullmann admits that Denuvo has had performance impacts on games in the past but remarks that it's "interesting" that there aren't more incidents of reduced gaming performance. These comments were also made in spite of Denuvo's own marketing materials claiming that the software has "No impact on in-game performance."



Throughout the interview Ullmann neglected to directly address many of the complaints often levelled at the anti-tamper and anti-piracy software, and he and the company seem to forget that companies like Good Old Games largely publish on a DRM-free model. Some other reported cases of Denuvo's impact on gaming include dramatically increased game load times and much larger game install sizes. That doesn't even touch on how services like Denuvo can impact game longevity and game archiving. If a game has an always-online DRM requirement, it effectively becomes unplayable when the developer decides to stop supporting that service. That can sometimes be patched out by modders, but anti-tamper services, like Denuvo, make that impossible.

Here are the referenced quotes from the Rock Paper Shotgun interview:

First, our solution simply works. Pirates cannot play games which are using our solution over quite long time periods, usually until the publisher decides to patch out our solution. So there is a huge community, a lot of people on this planet who are not able to play their favorite video games, because they are not willing to pay for them, and therefore they have a lot of time to spend in communities and share their view and try to blame Denuvo for a lot of things...

-Andreas Ullmann of Denuvo via Rock Paper Shotgun

So basically, I think the one question was: why don't the developers do these comparisons and post them publicly? That's something we cannot force them to do. There seems to be reasons why they are not doing it. And also, on the other hand, probably considering the toxicity of - especially the pirate community - they would probably not accept that anyway, because it could be rigged....

-Andreas Ullmann of Denuvo via Rock Paper Shotgun

I think it's important to understand how our solution works. And it's also worth considering, because when these performance claims come up, it's mostly this Tekken case that is referred to. But considering that we are protecting 60 to 70 games every year, it's quite interesting to see that there is only - if even - a handful of games where there was an effective performance impact cost. That's really just a minority.

-Andreas Ullmann of Denuvo via Rock Paper Shotgun

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[FreedomEclipse]

Basically, what Andreas Ullmann is saying is: "LALALALALALALALAICANTHEARYOU"

Denouvo is where it is not because people want it in their games but stupid publishers dont care and pay them for the service anyway even though most Denouvo games are cracked within one or two weeks of a new game releasing.

meanwhile If Denouvo's authentication servers have a brain fart and go down like when W1zzard sunk the USS TPU. Who is it that suffers?? Definitely not the pirates. There is also such thing as buying a copy of a game and then cracking it but we dont talk about that here because everyone is a pirate.

 

[Klemc]

D should be only Anti-Cheat, idc cheaters (online) are blocked, but the DRM that it adds to the game itself (SP/offline) is really really too much.

 

[R-T-B]

D should be only Anti-Cheat, idc cheaters (online) are blocked, but the DRM that it adds to the game itself (SP/offline) is really really too much.

Kernel level anti cheat is just as bad if not worse IMO. Plus, it seldom even helps.

 

[Klemc]

Kernel level anti cheat is just as bad if not worse IMO. Plus, it seldom even helps.

I just written recently a topic asking about RICOCHET recently, i thinked it was the newest & best bc announced in the last next game out (Black Op thinie), i even forgotten D did his own btw.

Cheaters (online)

OKay, i just read about a new Anti-Cheat soft made by Activision called RICOCHET, then a question came to my mind as it appears a lot game are cheated by players... Source: https://www.journaldugeek.com/2021/10/14/activision-compte-bien-combattre-la-triche-avec-ce-nouvel-outil/ ... i'm...

www.techpowerup.com

Does even Denuvo anti-Cheat not works well enough against cheaters ? If so then there is now hope that any anti-cheat is better, right ?.. if D is as good as his DRM in the domain btw of course idk.

 

[mechtech]

lol

So don't buy/play anything with Denuvo in it ever again was the bottom line??

 

[R-T-B]

Does even Denuvo anti-Cheat not works well enough against cheaters ?

The best anticheat is a properly coded game that does most things serverside.

 

[Chrispy_]

I've never really had an issue with Denuvo, though since it's typically useless beyond a few weeks once the game is cracked, I wish devs would then just remove it - it's madness to have the pirated copies of a game being the more desirable versions with superior performance.

It's been a while since the DRM on a game was so offensive that I downloaded the cracked version after already paying for the game. (Thanks, GFWL!)

 

[R-T-B]

The main issue I have with Denuvo, and this article is yet more evidence of it, is they at their core business ethos seem to assume their core customer base (the end user/gamer, from which all the sales flow) are criminals at heart.

 

[MaMoo]

Blame the customers for your product. Nice douchy move.

 

[Klemc]

What all this guys working on the DRM at Denuvo enterprise should do, being high level coders, is all leave together to start something else, then D would be finished.

With their talent, all together there is chance they open an enterprise that works well.

 

[watzupken]

“Addressing a question about "toxicity" and oft-genuine concerns from gamers over the use of Denuvo anti-tamper and anti-cheat software, Ullmann seemingly implied that gamers are just upset because the software works, robbing gamers of the ability to simply play a game for free instead of paying full retail price”

So he is suggesting that all gamers are thieves? I think this comment went over and beyond what is reasonable. No wonder the product is terrible that does little to stop piracy, but burden paying customers.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

When you're a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

 

[Carlyle2020hs]

The main issue I have with Denuvo, and this article is yet more evidence of it, is they at their core business ethos seem to assume their core customer base (the end user/gamer, from which all the sales flow) are criminals at heart.

Who here took a few days off to play their new game just to be screwed by bad performance or worse: unstable performance due to DRM implementation?
That wasted vacation time is the driver for many disapprovals.

 

[SOAREVERSOR]

PC gaming is popular because you can steal games and cheat. That is what makes PC gaming good.

 

[GoldenTiger]

Calling customers toxic probably isn't the best way to market your software, but he's right as to the main reason people hate it: it stops them from freeloading. It's a great tool for protecting the early flood of sales when launching a game.

 

[R-T-B]

Who here took a few days off to play their new game just to be screwed by bad performance or worse: unstable performance due to DRM implementation?
That wasted vacation time is the driver for many disapprovals.

I haven't honestly experienced that but saying one thing is my chief issue does not make me blind to other issues either. I'm sure that happens.

also, this has nothing to do with "woke" either way. You can be a douche on either side of the isle.

 

[Event Horizon]

How about no Denuvo malware and no aggressively obnoxious immature brats. A win-win situation.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Your company is trash, your product is garbage, and you view your customers with absolute contempt. Get bent. When your only argument is "WaH mUh ToxIc GaMuRz" you have completely lost.

If denuvo, as a company, ceased to exist tomorrow gamers would rejoice and consumers would be singing.

The main issue I have with Denuvo, and this article is yet more evidence of it, is they at their core business ethos seem to assume their core customer base (the end user/gamer, from which all the sales flow) are criminals at heart.

That's because, at their core, most industries would love to strip you of all your rights and treat you worse then convicted felons for daring to not consoom product and get excited for next product. They absolutely detest the common peasant that demands things like "fair treatment" or "consumer protections".

 

[Wasteland]

Calling customers toxic probably isn't the best way to market your software, but he's right as to the main reason people hate it: it stops them from freeloading. It's a great tool for protecting the early flood of sales when launching a game.

Launch time is also the worst time to buy--the product is at its buggiest and most expensive. I'm not fond of any DRM scheme, but I'm grateful for any extra incentive to avoid impulse purchases of newly released AAA games, most of which are crap even on their best day. I'm drowning in games already. So here's to you, Denuvo: keep being as repulsive as you possibly can.

 

[trsttte]

Different day, same bullshit. Nothing like spending money and effort on something that makes the product worse for legitimate users and doesn't even work, not for long anyway.

PC gaming is popular because you can steal games and cheat. That is what makes PC gaming good.

That's completely false. PC gaming is popular for many many reasons, stealing and cheating would be very low on the list. Contrary to a console, a PC serves more purposes, in the modern world you pretty much need a computer, a console not really. A computer can do mods. Market competition (and consequently prices) are much better. etc etc etc.

Piracy is not a price problem, proof of this is how successfull steam is in places like Russia. The man said it best: "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates.”

Launch time is also the worst time to buy--the product is at its buggiest and most expensive. I'm not fond of any DRM scheme, but I'm grateful for any extra incentive to avoid impulse purchases of newly released AAA games, most of which are crap even on their best day. I'm drowning in games already. So here's to you, Denuvo: keep being as repulsive as you possibly can.

I guess that's a very glass half full way of looking at it

Problem is not that many games have Denuvo removed even after the game is cracked and the release cycle is over

 

[AsRock]

again calling the gaming and piracy community toxic in the response.

Wow,i think they should just look in the mirror as all they have done from what i hearing is insults and it's our way or your toxic.

Umm sounds very familiar..

The mouth piece they have talking for the company needs a serious attitude check as it/s no way to solve the issue's.

Without the company as well should all so help to keep the cost of a game down too.

 

[Dave65]

There is an easy fix for this.......................................................................... STOP BUYING THEIR SHIT!!

 

[evernessince]

I read the Rock Paper Shotgun interview and Denuvo seems extremely salty about it's perception and downright delusional is some regards.

That's the thing that that's bothering me the most, to be honest, that people take this as proof of our solution causing performance issues. Because most of these comparisons are first of all, coming from some unknown YouTube channels, or from some sources that are more related to or have relations into the piracy scene

The first half of this quote you could maybe argue but them claiming that negative YouTube videos are from the piracy scene is grand conspiracy theory level nuts.

The cracks, they don't remove our protection. The cracks still have all our code in and all our code is executed. There is even more code on top of the cracked code - that is executing on top of our code, and causing even more stuff to be executed. So there is technically no way that the cracked version is faster than the uncracked version.

This definitely isn't true for all games, there were instances where the pirated exe is often much smaller. One of the side effects of Denuvo is a bloated exe file and it's very obvious to tell it's been removed when your exe goes from 384 MB to 28 MB.

So basically, I think the one question was: why don't the developers do these comparisons and post them publicly? That's something we cannot force them to do. There seems to be reasons why they are not doing it. And also, on the other hand, probably considering the toxicity of - especially the pirate community - they would probably not accept that anyway, because it could be rigged.


Second case is: we do it. We have the unprotected execute tables, usually, for the game. So we would have both available. We could do a direct comparison. But two problems there. First is we would need the approval from our customer to do that with the game. (It would be) a public post using their franchise, their IP, so we would need the okay for that. And the other one is: again, there will be claims that this is rigged. Nobody will believe us, as we are the evil ones here.

Or part of the contract they have to sign doesn't allow them to disclose that information and are just passing the blame off to the devs. Denuvo admits they could release some data but comes up with excuses not to.

The problem at this point is that there have been dozens of examples of people testing the launch, level loading, and performance characteristics of cracked and uncraked games and they still haven't responded to a single one of those with official data and they continue to refuse to do so as evidenced above.

Of course people are going to have second thoughts about any data provided by Denuvo, they have done nothing to rebutt any of the claims about them made over the years.

The third option is third parties. I think that will be the way to go. Of course, again we have the problem. We cannot hand out unprotected executables to a third party, probably not even if we get the okay from our customer, because this is really crucial data. So something like this would need to happen here in our office in Salzburg. But this is definitely something we can think about. Inviting, I don't know, Digital Foundry [to test our software].

This is actually a good suggestion but again they pretty much instantly dismiss the option. To be frank, the time to comission a third party to rebutt claims was a decade ago. That they still haven't to me speaks volumes about how much they actually believe their claims.

Secondly, I think it's super hard for a gamer. I'm a gamer myself, and therefore I know what I'm talking about.

Because what we've seen, there is really a lot of very good questions. We've seen already, a lot of people saying: I was concerned and hesitant about Denuvo, but thanks for this open communication. We appreciate it. Stuff like that. And this is exactly what we are looking for. Having honest, nice conversations with people. Talking about what we all love, which is gaming.

Who is thanking Denuvo for gaslighting them? I'll send them a condolences card for playing the fool.

Of course, I totally understand that people don't believe if I say: yeah, we don't have a performance impact on that game. And I think we did a good job before launching all this in writing up our FAQ

later in the Q and A....

RPS: Do you deny that Denuvo negatively affects performance in all cases?

Andreas Ullmann: No, and I think that's also something that we've stated in our FAQ

Really clearing the air there Denuvo, contradicting your own claim in the same Q&A. So yes, despite their earlier claims they confirm what we all knew. Denuvo does have a performance impact. They spend a extra paragraph after the quote trying to dress it up but it's a waste of words.


Frankly this interview only makes me dislike Denuvo even more. They didn't clear anything up and they seem to be dismissing my and other's concerns while trying to gaslight people. If they were shooting for the sleezy politician angle, they sure nailed it.

 

[nguyen]

Lol so even after Tekken 7 game director came out and blame Denuvo for the performance issues, Denuvo bosses still think PC gamers welcome their existence?

Get wrecked, Denuvo