AMD Falling Behind: Radeon dGPUs Absent from Steam's Top 20

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
Because, inflation and market situation aside, the costs of development and manufacturing are rising exponentially, not linearly. Especially for really big dense chips, which GPUs are. It isn’t a complete coincidence that the price increases are coinciding with lithography switching to ever more expensive and complex EUV machines. Of course, if market realities been different, the increases to MSRP might have been lower. But it would have crept up all the same regardless. NVidia isn’t exactly lying about their sky-high RnD costs and TSMC is not lying either about each new manufacturing step up being more and more expensive and time consuming.

Then maybe it's time to change our perspective both as hobby gamers / PC builders, and as a species, and appreciate what we've got while using it to the fullest before moving on to the next best thing at enormous costs. Of course it wouldn't be good for the market, but is the market in its current state good for us?

To paraphrase HUB Steve in his talk to GN Steve about AMD GPUs, they really seem to have a strategy of just plopping a product into the market and going “Wouldn’t it be really nice if X would sell at *insert inane price here*? Yeah, it would. Cool. Why isn’t it selling?!”. This just isn’t a sustainable and effective strategy. Just isn’t.

It's sad, though, because the GPUs themselves are really good.

I hope consoles and Linux gaming (however small that market is) will keep Radeon going and urge AMD to get better. If anything, changing market strategy with RDNA 4 is a good thing, imo.

 

[Onasi]

@AusWolf
I’ve been telling people for years to love the waifu hardware you have, not pine for the one you can maybe possibly potentially get. If you need it for work - different story, but it will (or should) pay for itself. But for leisure? Nah, come on, there is an endless amount of games that will run perfectly fine on whatever one already has, assuming we aren’t talking someone with a PIII running 98 here, but then I would be very impressed that they are accessing the internet at all. But, of course, then I am usually met with usual screeching about how they totally need to play the latest slop in 12K with RT and at 420 FPS. This all needs to happen on a 100 dollar GPU. I am being hyperbolic here, obviously, but…

 

[Dr. Dro]

And this is why NVIDIA is winning and will continue to win. Because while fanboys like you cry on forums about how NVIDIA is "evil", consumers are buying NVIDIA GPUs, not AMD ones. The market has spoken, it's telling you you're wrong, the fact you refuse to admit that is your problem and nobody cares.

AMD's problem is that they are actually really, really, really bad at competing. Not because of cashflow, but because they just fail abysmally at it whenever there's actual competition. Honestly I think it's because they have the same mindset as their fanboys, that their product is inherently superior and therefore somehow deserving of being purchased over their competitors', with the result that when the market chooses differently, AMD sits in the corner sucking its thumb and wondering "what happen?" instead of doing something about it.

G-Man, I wish I could put things as straight as you do. But hey, you're denigrating the company and being insulting to other forum members for their purchasing choices! Or so I've been told, for a lot less too!

The news actually saddens me. They have the cheese and the knife in their hands - just to squander the chance.

 

[Assimilator]

Then maybe it's time to change our perspective both as hobby gamers / PC builders, and as a species, and appreciate what we've got while using it to the fullest before moving on to the next best thing at enormous costs. Of course it wouldn't be good for the market, but is the market in its current state good for us?

It's just another outcome of how leaving the future to private companies, results in no future. Because when your goal as a company is to maximise short-term profits, why would you ever invest in the long term? This is why we need governments to step up and take ownership in driving cutting-edge technologies and nowadays they just don't, because money has infested everything.

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
I’ve been telling people for years to love the waifu hardware you have, not pine for the one you can maybe possibly potentially get. If you need it for work - different story, but it will (or should) pay for itself. But for leisure? Nah, come on, there is an endless amount of games that will run perfectly fine on whatever one already has, assuming we aren’t talking someone with a PIII running 98 here, but then I would be very impressed that they are accessing the internet at all. But, of course, then I am usually met with usual screeching about how they totally need to play the latest slop in 12K with RT and at 420 FPS. This all needs to happen on a 100 dollar GPU. I am being hyperbolic here, obviously, but…
View attachment 370215

Yep. The problem isn't the state of GPUs. The problem is our expectations that the state of GPUs follows.

I think I'm gonna try taking the example of a friend of mine from now on... He had a R5 3600 that he was completely happy with, but he really wanted to repurpose it as a HTPC part. I suggested buying an AM5 system so he could proceed with his plans while also getting something new and upgradable as his new main rig. Did he? Of course not! He got a m-ITX AM4 board for his 3600, and a 5700X3D for his main rig. When I asked him why didn't he invest a bit more in some upgradability, he just asked "what would have been the point?" I guess he didn't want the best of the best. He just wanted something that's fit for purpose. This is an attitude most of us on this forum don't get.

G-Man, I wish I could put things as straight as you do. But hey, you're denigrating the company and being insulting to other forum members for their purchasing choices! Or so I've been told, for a lot less too!

The news actually saddens me. They have the cheese and the knife in their hands - just to squander the chance.

Having an opinion on AMD is not the problem. Telling people that the GPU they own and love is shit is the problem.

If I love my £200 Blackview phone, that's my business, and I don't want to hear how bad it is from an iPhone or Galaxy S owner, if you catch my drift.

It's just another outcome of how leaving the future to private companies, results in no future. Because when your goal as a company is to maximise short-term profits, why would you ever invest in the long term? This is why we need governments to step up and take ownership in driving cutting-edge technologies and nowadays they just don't, because money has infested everything.

I agree completely. Not to mention that members of modern governments lack the capability to take ownership for the lunch they had yesterday, not to mention something as complex as high-tech businesses.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Having an opinion on AMD is not the problem. Telling people that the GPU they own and love is shit is the problem.

Except I didn't do that. But indeed, toxic positivity is the solution for each and every woe. The problem will go away if you choose to look at the silver lining instead.

 

[de.das.dude]

Guys... what is "OTHER" ?

also, could the mining gig thing have affected this graph? a lot of AMD gpus were sold to miners, which definitely never saw any gaming, specially on steam. Consequently a lot of people had to switch to NVIDIA when there were AMD shortages because of the mining cunts hoarding all the GPUs

 

[Dr. Dro]

Guys... what is "OTHER" ?

Includes all other minor graphics vendors - Qualcomm Adreno (on Windows), Matrox, VMware and other virtual GPU platforms

 

[AusWolf]

Except I didn't do that. But indeed, toxic positivity is the solution for each and every woe. The problem will go away if you choose to look at the silver lining instead.

Suggesting that something maybe isn't entirely and utterly shit, and that other people could potentially have a valid reason for liking something that you don't is considered toxic now? Wow!

 

[Dr. Dro]

Suggesting that something maybe isn't entirely and utterly shit, and that other people could potentially have a valid reason for liking something that you don't is considered toxic now? Wow!

I specifically addressed that person's question of "I don't get why RDNA 3 is considered to be bad"; alas: this entire thread, topic, and even statement is toxic. Steam gamers are mean, and Jensen Huang probably paid all of us off. Bribed us with free games or something. What we're seeing here is an unprecedented level of rejection to a product.

See: it's literally just an emotional argument. It's always going to be negative if you're emotionally invested in the losing side; even if you have no intention to be malicious. Which was my case to begin with. I just had no desire to hijack that thread any further.

 

[Onasi]

@de.das.dude
Absolute madlads still running 3dfx, S3 and Matrox cards. May Allah have mercy on their souls.

Includes all other minor graphics vendors - Qualcomm Adreno (on Windows), Matrox, VMware and other virtual GPU platforms

Or… that. I like my version better.

 

[de.das.dude]

Agreed. Orcs (people) enslave themselves by their own free will, they don't need Sauron for that.

Seriously, though. Making good products is one thing. AMD can do that, too. Being able to sell them is another.


Not to mention that AMD has open source drivers that the Linux teams implement into the kernel. No Windows user can imagine the wonders of fully working 3D and other advanced display features on first boot.
Not to mention that AMD works closely together with said Linux teams and Valve to make Steam and Proton a better experience day by day, at least as far as I know.

i had to use my GF's laptop when i went home to play games. I had some weird driver issues with its 3060, conflicting with the audio driver and bluetooth. Meanwhile she is using the old system in my specs to run Kali for her work without any issues!

 

[AusWolf]

I specifically addressed that person's question of "I don't get why RDNA 3 is considered to be bad"; alas: this entire thread, topic, and even statement is toxic. Steam gamers are mean.

Well, I don't consider RDNA 3 bad, either. It has an issue with high video playback power consumption, which I'm not happy with, but other than that, it's fine. I guess I'm just toxic or something.

i had to use my GF's laptop when i went home to play games. I had some weird driver issues with its 3060, conflicting with the audio driver and bluetooth. Meanwhile she is using the old system in my specs to run Kali for her work without any issues!

My brother also has audio driver conflict issues with his 2060 up to this day that Nvidia won't fix. No hardware comes without flaws.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Well, I don't consider RDNA 3 bad, either. It has an issue with high video playback power consumption, which I'm not happy with, but other than that, it's fine. I guess I'm just toxic or something.


My brother also has audio driver conflict issues with his 2060 up to this day that Nvidia won't fix. No hardware comes without flaws.

No, you aren't toxic... but like, I think you're actually in a very small minority where it has really panned out flawless for your use case. I've been having bad luck with my 5600H's iGPU even running completely stable driver releases in a stable version of Windows 10 that has been specifically configured not to update automatically and to intentionally avoid builds that haven't been certified to be stable - this is my work machine after all - and It's not like NV has been giving their cards for free, quite contrary - and really, gamers as a whole do not have brand loyalties, people want to save their hard earned money. That's why the situation is so grave. But if news like this won't spur change within the company, what will?

 

[Hecate91]

Their pricing isn't an issue. Each time they drop prices people get happy because they assume this will lead to cheaper nvidia. It never does and those same people go right out and buy nvidia despite AMD having much better value for the price.

Pricing is very much an issue, when the 4060 is the most popular, it shows people are just settling for what they can afford, its not good for the consumer when they can't buy anything better than an 8GB card that will go obsolete because Nvidia wants gamers to buy a card every launch cycle.

Prices also will not come down. They will only go up. Each new generation of GPUs costs vastly more to design and to make. That's the cost of progress. If you want prices to go down the only way to do that is for PC gamers to stop buying GPUs and demand we turn back graphics to well over a decade ago. That's the only way to stop price increases. That or move it all to the cloud and have gaming as a service fees for performance tiers. As PC gamers won't accept moving graphics back they have screamed at the top of their lungs they want 3000 buck or higher GPUs or gaming by streaming and that's what they are going to get.

Prices won't come down as long as people keep paying what Nvidia is asking for GPU's, and well because the leather jacket man says pricing won't come down. Nvidia makes 70% margins and they cut the die size for RTX 4000 yet they claim prices can only go up.
As for graphics quality, theres plenty of games from a decade ago that still hold up well in terms of graphics quality, there is no need for fake frames or upscaling but Nvidia marketing works and people think they need the newest shiny GPU for the latest feature.

AMD doesn't have an image problem. PC gamers have a PC gamer problem. Where everyone demands two things happen. First companies don't make money or go bankrupt costing people their jobs all for the sake of PC gamers. Second that other PC gamers all bolt to AMD so they can have cheap nvidia. AMD isn't the issue. Nvidia isn't the issue. Image isn't the issue. Pricing isn't the issue. The issue is and always has been PC gamers. Until PC gamers change the situation is not fixable. But as they won't admit that, they are getting what the deserve and are treated far too kindly as is.

I get it, you don't like PC gaming, kind of ironic when TPU is focused on enthusiast hardware and PC gaming, but PC gamers aren't to blame for companies getting greedy and neither Nvidia or AMD would go bankrupt for selling cheaper cards at more reasonable prices. The level of inflation that has affected everything is also to blame, but you can't just get people to stop buying things especially those in the hobby of PC building that have to buy the latest hardware every year.

 

[Vayra86]

Most of the "gamers" can't afford a better card, why are you mad about it?

Nonsense. They're penny wise pound stupid, and it happens mostly because of glaring lack of knowledge about what they're buying. Been there done that

 

[AusWolf]

No, you aren't toxic... but like, I think you're actually in a very small minority where it has really panned out flawless for your use case. I've been having bad luck with my 5600H's iGPU even running completely stable driver releases in a stable version of Windows 10 that has been specifically configured not to update automatically and to intentionally avoid builds that haven't been certified to be stable - this is my work machine after all - and It's not like NV has been giving their cards for free, quite contrary - and really, gamers as a whole do not have brand loyalties, people want to save their hard earned money. That's why the situation is so grave. But if news like this won't spur change within the company, what will?

Fair enough. To be honest, laptops, especially higher end ones have been a massive hit and miss for me, regardless of hardware vendors, that's why I avoid them like the plague, if possible. The smaller and simpler the better is my motto for anything portable.

I've had people ask me if I could recommend them a gaming laptop, and my answer was " no, get a PC".

 

[LittleBro]

Because, inflation and market situation aside, the costs of development and manufacturing are rising exponentially, not linearly.

Don't want to argue, but it's has not always been about increased chip complexity, take a look at RTX 3090 vs 4090 or 2080 vs 3080:

MSRP of RTX 3090 was indeed affected by GPU shortage crysis which maxed out around 2020-2021. There's absolutely no doubt that Nvidia (and also AMD) tried to take advantage of the situation. They were trying on customers. Extreme demand helped not only GPU manufacturers to maintain "not-before-seen" prices, but also chip makers (TSMC, ...).

RTX 3080 was well-priced. With 3090 you got 14% perf. boost over 3080 but paid +115% more. Price of RTX 4090 seems reasonable.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Fair enough. To be honest, laptops, especially higher end ones have been a massive hit and miss for me, regardless of hardware vendors, that's why I avoid them like the plague, if possible. The smaller and simpler the better is my motto for anything portable.

Thing is, my laptop's relatively basic and 3 years old, running a Vega architecture, this shouldn't be happening on a Cezanne APU that sold tens of millions of units across desktop and mobile configurations. It's not like there's any obscure thing from the system vendor on the way, it's quite literally the most straightfoward, nonsense-free configuration you could think about. I haven't purchased an RDNA-generation card because these problems have repeatedly manifested over the years. The reason I even engage in subjects regarding AMD isn't because I hate them, it's quite the contrary, I have a shred of hope that given enough feedback, things will change someday... and pretending the issues aren't there just isn't going to spur change.

I was one of the people passionate enough to purchase a Vega Frontier Edition when it was all the rage, after all.

Don't want to argue, but it's has not always been about increased chip complexity, take a look at RTX 3090 vs 4090 or 2080 vs 3080:

View attachment 370219

MSRP of RTX 3090 was indeed affected by GPU shortage crysis which maxed out around 2020-2021. There's absolutely no doubt that Nvidia (and also AMD) tried to take advantage of the situation. They were trying on customers. Extreme demand helped not only GPU manufacturers to maintain "not-before-seen" prices, but also chip makers (TSMC, ...).

RTX 3080 was well-priced. With 3090 you got 14% perf. boost over 3080 but paid +115% more. Price of RTX 4090 seems reasonable.

The bulk of the RTX 3090's price comes from the 24 GDDR6X memory chips that it required. Back in 2020 this was a real concern, I remember reading a rumor at the time that $800 of its price was just the memory chips. The 3080 had only 10 and of a lower grade in comparison. Where they really gouged was the 3090 Ti

 

[Onasi]

Prices won't come down as long as people keep paying what Nvidia is asking for GPU's, and well because the leather jacket man says pricing won't come down. Nvidia makes 70% margins and they cut the die size for RTX 4000 yet they claim prices can only go up.

What the hell are you on about, the AD102 was literally near the reticle limit, so much so that no product ever got the full chip. Is this the whole “4070Ti should have been the 4060” nonsense or whatever?

Prices won't come down as long as people keep paying what Nvidia is asking for GPU's

but you can't just get people to stop buying things especially those in the hobby of PC building that have to buy the latest hardware every year.

Is this what slowly reaching lucidity looks like?

@LittleBro
Do note that this table lists all the cards with full chip transistor count. This is often not the case. The cheaper cards use chips that are scuffed in some way and are, in a sense, a way for companies to sell off what isn’t good enough. You aren’t paying the listed transistors per $.

 

[Hecate91]

No, the 4070 should've been the 4060.
I expected this thread to be bait for the nvidia defenders to be toxic, I didn't expect it to be this toxic though.

 

[SOAREVERSOR]

Pricing is very much an issue, when the 4060 is the most popular, it shows people are just settling for what they can afford, its not good for the consumer when they can't buy anything better than an 8GB card that will go obsolete because Nvidia wants gamers to buy a card every launch cycle.

Prices won't come down as long as people keep paying what Nvidia is asking for GPU's, and well because the leather jacket man says pricing won't come down. Nvidia makes 70% margins and they cut the die size for RTX 4000 yet they claim prices can only go up.
As for graphics quality, theres plenty of games from a decade ago that still hold up well in terms of graphics quality, there is no need for fake frames or upscaling but Nvidia marketing works and people think they need the newest shiny GPU for the latest feature.

I get it, you don't like PC gaming, kind of ironic when TPU is focused on enthusiast hardware and PC gaming, but PC gamers aren't to blame for companies getting greedy and neither Nvidia or AMD would go bankrupt for selling cheaper cards at more reasonable prices. The level of inflation that has affected everything is also to blame, but you can't just get people to stop buying things especially those in the hobby of PC building that have to buy the latest hardware every year.

The mid range cards have always sold the most.

Prices will continue to go up as people demand progress because that creates more complexity.

I'm fine with PC gaming. I find PC gamers to be complete idiots who demand special treatment and have earned every bit of the toxic reputation which is if anything not nearly bad enough.

I don't care if people keep buying the latest hardware each year. But if you are doing that than you do have to look in the mirror and realize you are the problem and your purchasing and demands are the reason everything is stuck they way it is!

 

[AusWolf]

Thing is, my laptop's relatively basic and 3 years old, running a Vega architecture, this shouldn't be happening on a Cezanne APU that sold tens of millions of units across desktop and mobile configurations. It's not like there's any obscure thing from the system vendor on the way, it's quite literally the most straightfoward, nonsense-free configuration you could think about. I haven't purchased an RDNA-generation card because these problems have repeatedly manifested over the years. The reason I even engage in subjects regarding AMD isn't because I hate them, it's quite the contrary, I have a shred of hope that given enough feedback, things will change someday... and pretending the issues aren't there just isn't going to spur change.

I was one of the people passionate enough to purchase a Vega Frontier Edition when it was all the rage, after all.

Your experiences with your Vega-based laptop sound bad, but you surely can't judge RDNA 1/2/3 based on it if you never had one. These are massively different architectures with massively different drivers even from one another, not to mention Vega.

 

[john_]

When RTX 3050 sells 4 times more than the RX 6600, you know that the general public doesn't buy performance, but the sticker on the box.

So, it's not about features, or performance, or drivers, or whatever that many keep saying for years. The general public buys the sticker. And for that, both tech press and posters who try to invent in every case reasons to send buyers to the Nvidia brand, have the major responsibility. We are in a monopoly because tech press and countless posters online play Nvidia's game.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Your experiences with your Vega-based laptop sound bad, but you surely can't judge RDNA 1/2/3 based on it if you never had one. These are massively different architectures with massively different drivers even from one another, not to mention Vega.

It's closer to the experiences I've had with it - such as my friend that went through 7 5700 XT's before saying screw it and buying a 2070 Super, or my other friend that I regularly played games with that always dropped out of games because of BSODs, or the anecdotes of the numerous folks I've come to know over time. I've been following it pretty close.

Unfortunately, prices never really went significantly down to the point I would choose to take a risk - hopefully, there is a 6500 XT or 6600 at a very nice price this Black Friday. We'll see.