Microsoft Appeals Against the Record 899 Mln Euro EU Fine

[candle_86]

If you can make the best product why can't you control it? If Microsoft wasn't the best choice it wouldn't be used. Take Media player for example its not great but compared to other free media players its fine, and comes free with most features the 40 dollar players have also. Why isn't Microsoft allowed to release free products. I don't see car compaines getting fined for cutting oil profit margins by filling the tank when you buy the car, same thing. Microsoft offers free services with there products, and most users are fine with these products and don't want the hassle of having to find new ones. IT was Internet Explorer and Media Player that brought Music and Internet to widespread common computer users. Microsoft is being attacked for being smart and succesful thats all it is. They choose to offer free products. Next thing the EU is gonna say is you can't offer access to your free downloads for media player ect because they infringe on this 40 dollar programs right to sell. It's flat out stupid to the core. IF i was Microsoft I would pull out of Europe, it wouldn't take long anyway for the EU to aplogize and MS wouldn't loose enough money to put a dent in there profit margins. Let the EU provide Europe with a windows compatible OS that doesnt violate Microsofts's copyrights, then again they are the EU and above the law. These laws are like telling a kid he isn't allowed to hit a homerun at a baseball game cause the other kids can't catch it

 

[candle_86]

The WMD lie was the worst lie in recent history. It was the motive for a war thats worse than Vietnam when it comes to money spent, and thats accounting for inflation.

Iraq war was useless and I said that before we went in, and you will learn that by the time we are out, hopefully.

The Afghanistan War needs more attention than its getting. That is the correct place to fight because thats what caused 9/11(terrorist training camps built with Saudi Arabian Funds).

Iraqi's did not cause 9/11, and neither did Saddam. If you didn't realize that, you need to read more on the issue.

Name me the thing(s) Bush did well....... then compare that short list with the long list of what he did wrong.:shadedshu

Read what USA Today?

No thank you, I'd rather get news and information from informed sources. The Military reports for one, people in Iraq, and the Conservative media, because they don't try to undermine everything this nation stands for every day of there lives.


What he did right

Free'd Iraqi's from certain slaughter and Death
Prevented Further Terrorist Attacks on America
Kept the Word of this government when Sadam refused to allow UN Inspectors
Didn't bow down to the Liberal cowards
Ignored public opion to do what was correct and right and what the people thought of it be damned, this take real charecter to care more about a cause than your own face

What he did wrong
Nothing, we went into Iraq on wrong CIA info, the Seneate Declared war not Bush, and Bush has no power to remove troops from a war, do some reading your self. Not even Hillary or Obama can actully stop this war, the Senate has to, they are the ones that declared war.

 

[Davidelmo]

If you can make the best product why can't you control it? If Microsoft wasn't the best choice it wouldn't be used. Take Media player for example its not great but compared to other free media players its fine, and comes free with most features the 40 dollar players have also. Why isn't Microsoft allowed to release free products. I don't see car compaines getting fined for cutting oil profit margins by filling the tank when you buy the car, same thing. Microsoft offers free services with there products, and most users are fine with these products and don't want the hassle of having to find new ones. IT was Internet Explorer and Media Player that brought Music and Internet to widespread common computer users. Microsoft is being attacked for being smart and succesful thats all it is. They choose to offer free products. Next thing the EU is gonna say is you can't offer access to your free downloads for media player ect because they infringe on this 40 dollar programs right to sell. It's flat out stupid to the core. IF i was Microsoft I would pull out of Europe, it wouldn't take long anyway for the EU to aplogize and MS wouldn't loose enough money to put a dent in there profit margins. Let the EU provide Europe with a windows compatible OS that doesnt violate Microsofts's copyrights, then again they are the EU and above the law. These laws are like telling a kid he isn't allowed to hit a homerun at a baseball game cause the other kids can't catch it

rant rant rant.

EU are above the law? Last time I checked THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING THE LAW

And for the 3rd time, Microsoft aren't going to pull out of Europe which is a bigger market than the USA is.

Read what USA Today?

No thank you, I'd rather get news and information from informed sources. The Military reports for one, people in Iraq, and the Conservative media, because they don't try to undermine everything this nation stands for every day of there lives.


What he did right

Free'd Iraqi's from certain slaughter and Death
Prevented Further Terrorist Attacks on America
Kept the Word of this government when Sadam refused to allow UN Inspectors
Didn't bow down to the Liberal cowards
Ignored public opion to do what was correct and right and what the people thought of it be damned, this take real charecter to care more about a cause than your own face

Free'd Iraqis from certain slaugher? Don't buy the propoganda. Yes, he was a horrible leader but at least they had stability under the dictatorship. The people didn't ask to be "free'd" either. While it may be a good thing overall, we have only now started using that as justification for the war. It wasn't our reason for going there in the first place.

Preventing further attacks? That's basically a logical fallacy. I have a rock here that prevents me from tiger attacks. I don't see any tigers here so my rock must be working, right? Also, look at the countries who have HAD attacks (like the UK) and the atackers specifically said that the reason was because we were in Iraq.

Have you watched the Bin Laden video where he explains WHY he carried out 9/11? It's because of US involvement in Saudi Arabia and the fact tha we have so many bases in the middle east, and they HATE that. You wouldn't want a massive Russian or Chinese base just off the coast of the US. They don't want huge US bases in the middle of their land either.

Didn't bow to liberal cowards? Do you mean that he ignores 70% of the american people who want the troops home? You may call it real character, but I call that a leader who ignores the will of his people... a complete disgrace.

What he did wrong
Nothing, we went into Iraq on wrong CIA info, the Seneate Declared war not Bush, and Bush has no power to remove troops from a war, do some reading your self. Not even Hillary or Obama can actully stop this war, the Senate has to, they are the ones that declared war.

Agree on this one. The only way to stop the war is for congress to vote against more spending to support it.

 

[das müffin mann]

What has Bush done so poorly? He's made a few bad decisions over the years, but overall he is nowhere as inept as Jimmy Carter and he doesn't lie like Clinton.

at least when clinton lied nobody died, speaking of which if anyone cares to know what happened to monica, she must be really strapped for cash because she will be handing out cigars at a local strip club tommorrow

now back on topic will it is true the the EU makes the laws and microsoft should follow those laws, while at the same time they should not have to give away corporate secrets that could impact their business and share holders

while im siding more with m$ on this one im not really intirely sure what they should do about this situation, because they cant keep paying these fines to protect their property, and they cant pull out of the market (not good for anyone), but at the same time they shouldn't be breaking european law (because they are NOT above the law, unlike oj)

 

[Davidelmo]

at least when clinton lied nobody died, speaking of which if anyone cares to know what happened to monica, she must be really strapped for cash because she will be handing out cigars at a local strip club tommorrow

now back on topic will it is true the the EU makes the laws and microsoft should follow those laws, while at the same time they should not have to give away corporate secrets that could impact their business and share holders

while im siding more with m$ on this one im not really intirely sure what they should do about this situation, because they cant keep paying these fines to protect their property, and they cant pull out of the market (not good for anyone), but at the same time they shouldn't be breaking european law (because they are NOT above the law, unlike oj)

I agree.

Some may call it "unfair" but at the end of the day, anti-competition laws exist to help everybody.

Nobody wants one company to have absolute dominance over a market.. competition is a GREAT thing and it is perfectly true that microsofts practices ofen shut out competition. For instance, the number 1 most popular homepage is msn.com. There isn't any worthwhile content on that site, it isn't a great search engine and it isn't a great news site either. Yet it's number 1 because so many don't change their homepage. Same goes for media players, internet browsers etc etc etc. MS have been warned repeatedly about it, so unfortunately they have to face the consequences.

 

[WhiteLotus]

MS have been warned repeatedly about it, so unfortunately they have to face the consequences.

That is true, I'm sure they have been asked time and time again to abide by the Laws in which they are operating, and they still haven't so it's time they got (lets me honest here in relation to what MS earns a year) a slap on the wrist.

 

[WhiteLotus]

Free'd Iraqis from certain slaugher? Don't buy the propoganda. Yes, he was a horrible leader but at least they had stability under the dictatorship. The people didn't ask to be "free'd" either. While it may be a good thing overall, we have only now started using that as justification for the war. It wasn't our reason for going there in the first place.

Preventing further attacks? That's basically a logical fallacy. I have a rock here that prevents me from tiger attacks. I don't see any tigers here so my rock must be working, right? Also, look at the countries who have HAD attacks (like the UK) and the atackers specifically said that the reason was because we were in Iraq.

Have you watched the Bin Laden video where he explains WHY he carried out 9/11? It's because of US involvement in Saudi Arabia and the fact tha we have so many bases in the middle east, and they HATE that. You wouldn't want a massive Russian or Chinese base just off the coast of the US. They don't want huge US bases in the middle of their land either.

Didn't bow to liberal cowards? Do you mean that he ignores 70% of the american people who want the troops home? You may call it real character, but I call that a leader who ignores the will of his people... a complete disgrace.

completely of topic but HURRAAHHHH someone with a braincell! Where abouts are you from?

 

[Davidelmo]

completely of topic but HURRAAHHHH someone with a braincell! Where abouts are you from?

lol, yes I got a bit off topic

But I'm from the UK too

 

[candle_86]

rant rant rant.

EU are above the law? Last time I checked THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING THE LAW

And for the 3rd time, Microsoft aren't going to pull out of Europe which is a bigger market than the USA is.




Free'd Iraqis from certain slaugher? Don't buy the propoganda. Yes, he was a horrible leader but at least they had stability under the dictatorship. The people didn't ask to be "free'd" either. While it may be a good thing overall, we have only now started using that as justification for the war. It wasn't our reason for going there in the first place.

Preventing further attacks? That's basically a logical fallacy. I have a rock here that prevents me from tiger attacks. I don't see any tigers here so my rock must be working, right? Also, look at the countries who have HAD attacks (like the UK) and the atackers specifically said that the reason was because we were in Iraq.

Have you watched the Bin Laden video where he explains WHY he carried out 9/11? It's because of US involvement in Saudi Arabia and the fact tha we have so many bases in the middle east, and they HATE that. You wouldn't want a massive Russian or Chinese base just off the coast of the US. They don't want huge US bases in the middle of their land either.

Didn't bow to liberal cowards? Do you mean that he ignores 70% of the american people who want the troops home? You may call it real character, but I call that a leader who ignores the will of his people... a complete disgrace.



Agree on this one. The only way to stop the war is for congress to vote against more spending to support it.

Stablity, ha, do what i say or you will disappear from your house, thats not stability.

We where justified in going in, we have found empty WMD casings and Satelites show them being moved to Syria, which we can't touch

They don't have a choice if another country wants us to have a base, the Sudi's invited us there as well as Pakastan. The bases in Iraq and Afganistan will remain ours now also untill we feel the country can support its self.

As for the bombings in London, as you say, its not problem, work on National Security and Immigration control, maybe ask your prime minister to grow some balls, honestly don't know what to tell you, your country won't stand up for its self, it would rather bow down to any crack pot terrorist group.

No 70% is total BS, most American don't submit to the opion polls, it is mainly Liberals that do that, we proper Americans have better things to do and to worry about. Frankly I'm glad he doesn't listen to the Liberals, if he did we'd look a lot like 90% of the other First World Nattions, total cowards with no backside.


As for your market size with Microsoft who cares, no American company should bow to your leaders, If MS pulled out, it would hurt your economy, could cause a mini depression. Personally id rather see that, than a company that has done no wrong bow to the EU. The EU are the biggest bunch of currupt leaders around, you'd be better with Stalin in control or Hitler, at least you'd know there Agenda

 

[btarunr]

lol, yes I got a bit off topic

But I'm from the UK too

<offtopic> Why do you forget your country participated in the 'Iraqi freedom' thingy as well? </offtopic>

 

[WhiteLotus]

As for the bombings in London, as you say, its not problem, work on National Security and Immigration control, maybe ask your prime minister to grow some balls, honestly don't know what to tell you, your country won't stand up for its self, it would rather bow down to any crack pot terrorist group.

In MY OPINION you sir are a complete ignorant and arrogant twat.

Guessing you've never heard of the SAS - you know the organization that even your previous presidents and generals have had TREMENDOUS respect for because they operate so efficiently with the limited tools at their disposal.

 

[Davidelmo]

Stablity, ha, do what i say or you will disappear from your house, thats not stability.

He kept a lid on the Sunni and Shia in-fighting. That is stability, unlike the civil war which we are trying to break up now. Plus every terrorist in the middle east is heading to Iraq to have a go at the coalition troops.

We where justified in going in, we have found empty WMD casings and Satelites show them being moved to Syria, which we can't touch

Evidence of this?

They don't have a choice if another country wants us to have a base, the Sudi's invited us there as well as Pakastan.

Who is "they" don't have a choice? WE have a choice when we decide to build huge bases. Unless you're saying that we HAVE to build huge bases where people want them.

The bases in Iraq and Afganistan will remain ours now also untill we feel the country can support its self.

No. They will be there for years afterwards. We (particularly the US) still has troops in Japan and Germany left over from WW2.

As for the bombings in London, as you say, its not problem, work on National Security and Immigration control, maybe ask your prime minister to grow some balls, honestly don't know what to tell you, your country won't stand up for its self, it would rather bow down to any crack pot terrorist group.

Leaving, and using our troops to protect our country and the borders is the only sensible thing. And I don't see how being the victim of a terrorist attack makes the prime minister a wimp or has anything to do with not standing up for ourselves. Last time I checked, we (as in the UK) were in Iraq too.

No 70% is total BS, most American don't submit to the opion polls, it is mainly Liberals that do that, we proper Americans have better things to do and to worry about. Frankly I'm glad he doesn't listen to the Liberals, if he did we'd look a lot like 90% of the other First World Nattions, total cowards with no backside.

And yet the democras will win the next election based on an anti-war platform. That may not be their true intention but it IS wha they are selling.. and guess what, people are buying!

As for your market size with Microsoft who cares, no American company should bow to your leaders, If MS pulled out, it would hurt your economy, could cause a mini depression. Personally id rather see that, than a company that has done no wrong bow to the EU. The EU are the biggest bunch of currupt leaders around, you'd be better with Stalin in control or Hitler, at least you'd know there Agenda

How stupid... not much I can say about this. The ignorance speaks for itself.

 

[btarunr]

Alright, let's put the Flying Scotsman on the right track or it ends up in Paris. Enough I hate US talk. We're here for Microsoft and on how EU plays bully with American companies in Europe. Microsoft really doesn't have anything to do with Iraq.

 

[erocker]

Please stay on topic people.

 

[Wile E]

Well, back on-topic. I stand be opinion that MS shouldn't have to pay the fine. The EU should reform their laws to allow companies to keep their IP to themselves, if they so desire.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Well, back on-topic. I stand be opinion that MS shouldn't have to pay the fine. The EU should reform their laws to allow companies to keep their IP to themselves, if they so desire.

i agree, but there currently is no incentive for the EU to reform their laws. why would they when they can take whatever they want and get away with it?

 

[imperialreign]

seeing as how we're back on topic, I'll chime back in:

i agree, but there currently is no incentive for the EU to reform their laws. why would they when they can take whatever they want and get away with it?

IMO, if any company has the ability to get that to change right now, it'd be MS - they have more financial backing, and deeper pockets than most of the EU league combined . . . and considering how MS has dealth with trials here in the US, it'd be no skin off their back to drag this thing out for a decade, using it as a mosquito to drain foreign funding until MS has their way.

That is how american corporations operate once they're put into the hot seat - use of extensive funding to prolong trials and drag them out . . . and should MS be put into tight spot, it would surprise me if they jacked their prices in the european market to make up for their losses - or they might cut out any "bulk" deals with individual governments.

American corporations are corrupt, and know how to use that corruption effectively.

 

[Davidelmo]

But the question still remains.. why should any one of us on this forum WANT a single, massive and unopposed company to have such a huge monopoly?

Despite all this whining, this doesn't affect us negatively at all.

 

[das müffin mann]

But the question still remains.. why should any one of us on this forum WANT a single, massive and unopposed company to have such a huge monopoly?

Despite all this whining, this doesn't affect us negatively at all.

it could very will affect us, especially those who buy software, if they need to make up for lost revenue where do you think it will come from?

 

[candle_86]

who cares if we want it, they earned it through bussiness, free market used to mean something, and to me it still does. Free Market Economics are about greed and doing what ever you can for the next penny. A bussiness man doesn't throw a penny in a pond for luck, he puts it in the bank and adds more till there are 10 billion pennies there. Maybe Europe isn't free market but the EU's decision effects alot more than Europe, this would give companies like Apple for instnace Microsoft code leagally that they could use for what ever they want and not be limited to Europe. This isn't the EU's decision, and because of the effects on Microsoft's bussiness itself who also realizes this, its in there best interest to refuse the EU's wish. The EU can only order MS's out of EU nations, they can't very well stop MS from selling to compaines over there who pay to import it into Europe. This is a far better solution for MS. The market size won't shink a bit for them by doing this, the price in Europe will just go up to cover importation fee's

 

[muon]

Free Market Economics are about greed and doing what ever you can for the next penny.

Free market economics and the wonder of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_welfare_theorem

On a very fundemental basis it is about Adam's "invisible hand".

"he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was not part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good"

The first welfare theorem holds under perfect competition i.e. no monopolies is a condition. There are other strong assumptions/conditions mentioned in the wiki article. So the rxistence of microsoft is acrually not about free markets.

edit: actually the wiki article is rubbish on assumptions

 

[Wile E]

In this case, you can't cry monopoly. This is only about intellectual property. How would you like it, if you spent years writing a program, then the EU comes along and says that you have to share it's code with your competitors? The size of the business in question doesn't matter at all, only the principle of the matter does.

 

[btarunr]

But the question still remains.. why should any one of us on this forum WANT a single, massive and unopposed company to have such a huge monopoly?

Despite all this whining, this doesn't affect us negatively at all.

Make a start. Format your hard-drive. I heard Fedora 9 just released.

 

[muon]

In this case, you can't cry monopoly. This is only about intellectual property. How would you like it, if you spent years writing a program, then the EU comes along and says that you have to share it's code with your competitors? The size of the business in question doesn't matter at all, only the principle of the matter does.

It does and thats why anti-trust laws exist in every developed country.

 

[Wile E]

It does and thats why anti-trust laws exist in every developed country.

So your saying that just because MS is bigger than other companies, they should have to release their code? That's ridiculous. They have a right to do what they want with their IP, just as much as any other company. Being bigger doesn't mean shit.