ATI Preparing 'Super RV770' to Challenge GeForce GTX 200 Series

[wolf]

interesting theory lemonadesoda. i had suspected that all of the cut downs to get 250% more juice under the hood in only 33% more space had to incorporate some cutting corners somewhere.

however the fact remains that the chips are ,on average, twice as fast as their 38xx series predecessor. no matter how its done i guess it works.

 

[v-zero]

The stream processors aren't very different from rv670, the difference is the way in which SPUs and TMUs have been paired, and optimization of the core layout.
The only bottlenecks in the rv770 architecture are a lack of ROPs and the link between core speed and shader speed.

 

[Solaris17]

Originally Posted by lemonadesoda

***ARCHITECTURE***

Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.

exactly its apples and oranges....i mean not only is the architecture scalar vs super scalar cough innefficent cough but i mean other than the fact that nvidias version of shaders and ati's are programmed or rather built to process in totally diff ways but its abvious that even though maybe ati's SP methodolagy is a little slower than nvidias with 800 shaders their something behind the scnenes slowing this card down

 

[FatForester]

***ARCHITECTURE***

Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.

That's a good point. They had to have cut corners in order to fit everything onto the die, so the architecture between the two will be similar, but not exactly the same. If they had exactly the same architecture, then theoretically we'd be seeing the 250% better numbers and 250% bigger PCB. This is the first batch of the R770's, so we can only expect them to fix the problems for the next release.

I'm not too worried about it though, because to the consumer, these issues don't really matter. The 4000 series is proving to be incredibly efficient and economical, which is something nVidia can't say at the moment.

 

[chron]

i remember my x1800gto having dynamic voltage control, and after unlocking it to 16 pipes, i could bump the voltage and run 700/700 from 500/500. I hope it's the same with these cards.

 

[razaron]

i wonder what would happen if they made the rv7-- the same size as the the gtx2-- (not the 55nm thing the other bigger one) and added stuff proportianately. then ill be like

 

[freaksavior]

well im sticking with my 3870 for a bit longer then. if this is true and they make a 4870 x2 version of this then im definitely waiting.

 

[newconroer]

well a really good custom after market air cooler could probably run the chips at 950 as well, I am already running at 790core, with temps never exceeding 65c under hours of gaming, that is with the stock cooler with fan speed at 40%. So the companys could easily hit 950 on air with a special bios as well, I really don't think that water cooling is really required for that speed.

Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.

I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.

And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....

That's a good point. They had to have cut corners in order to fit everything onto the die, so the architecture between the two will be similar, but not exactly the same. If they had exactly the same architecture, then theoretically we'd be seeing the 250% better numbers and 250% bigger PCB. This is the first batch of the R770's, so we can only expect them to fix the problems for the next release.

I'm not too worried about it though, because to the consumer, these issues don't really matter. The 4000 series is proving to be incredibly efficient and economical, which is something nVidia can't say at the moment.

Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.

Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?

ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.

 

[X-TeNDeR]

^So they used a bad thermal paste on the 4850.. so what? re-apply it and its fixed. by the way, i'm sure the next shipments of parts would get a new paste.

About the die size and performance compared to spu, well, ofcourse there was some need to cut back in a few areas in order to make the silicon "normal" in size and yields. look at performance figures - the job is done, the cards are twice as fast as their predecessors.
So the core can be better utilized and has more potential, maybe yes. i say they will develop on this potential in the upcoming generations. these things are fast enough

Oh, 4890 FTW!

 

[Valdez]

Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.

I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.

And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....




Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.

Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?

ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.

With proper cooler (for example: accelero s1) the 4850 has a temperature below 50 celsius under load.

 

[Urbklr]

Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.

I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.

And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....




Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.

Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?

ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.

ATi has not "gave the finger" to heat and noise. The 48xx series is much quieter than any previous series. They slowed the fan speed down to achieve this, and the cards run hotter. Is this an "overheating issue"?....No, if they ran 100+, then there would be an issue. The cards run at a perfectly fine temperature, and the 4850 is single-slot, huge plus for alot of people.

Comparing a GTX280 to a 4850 is not right, they both use different coolers, the GTX280 use's a large dual-slot cooler, the 4850 a small single-slot cooler. I would like to see Nvidia release a GTX2xx card with a single-slot cooler. Put that dual-slot cooler on the 4850 and it would load in the 50's. 4850's idle at high 60's, and peak at 80....same as alot of cards on the market.

 

[yogurt_21]

Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.

I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.

And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....




Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.

Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?

ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.

dunno what you mean about loudness, these cards are much quieter than the gtx280 take a look at wiz's review for that.

but the heat issue is due to a bios locked setting of 16% fan speed. once you cnahye the speed, you get a much cooler card. you just have to balance noise vs heat. erockers 4870 at 50% fan speed gets 38c idle 55c load. and he says he can't hear the 4870's fan above hsi other system fans at 50% I'll bet the next bath of cards will have a different setting to allow better cooling performance.

 

[btarunr]

I bet ATI will make a X2 version using these parts and pee on the GTX 280 55nm whenever it comes out.

 

[WarEagleAU]

All very exciting news coming out of the Red-Green camp. Im in the same boat as the other guy about preinstalled water cooling, but it couldnt hurt either. Im sure it would fit nicely into my koolance exos (which Im gonna rebuild a bit).

 

[imperialreign]

ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.

but considering for how long ATI have been behind in performance, they had to do something - considering how for the longest time (and even now) the vast majority of people cared more about performance than thermal output and efficiency. Those of us here, and a few other forums, are different from the norm - we take power consumption and efficiency into account with the overall offering by a card . . . but everywhere else

So, something drastic needed to change - and even though these cards can microwave a potato in about 2.5min, look at how well they're selling.

I bet ATI will make a X2 version using these parts and pee on the GTX 280 55nm whenever it comes out.

wouldn't surprise me at all - I had been getting the feeling ATI have had another ace up their sleeve, and then we hear of this . . . I'm sure they have something to counter whatever nVidia dram up to piss-on the 4870x2.


ATI have played this whole generation release perfectly, I am in awe

 

[vojc]

RV870 is 40nm

 

[newconroer]

That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;



The point was that the 4800s ARE louder, hotter and consume more at a considerably larger percentage in just one generation jump. This aspect has been a big part of their forte in the past.
Although, it looks like they got tired of that approach, and chucked it to the bin, like I said before, to catch up to Nvidia.

And I'm all for it, at least the performance gain, just not the ethics.

However, let's not bullshit here. If Nvidia puts out a power house card, the first damn thing people speculate on, is that it's going to be a 'dog,' a mini radiator that could heat your room in the winter, etc. And in the past at times, such claims would have been valid, however Nvidia, in one generation, has improved upon this issue.

-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.

What happens to the 'price/performance' cliche, when you have to change your case, and/or buy aftermarket coolers to compensate???






Now what do you expect is going to happen when they do this 'unlocking' the clocks non-sense and actually have increased voltages? Que the waterblock?


The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?

Remember what's his face from ATi saying publically that the X2 would dominate a GTX 280?
When was the last time ATi made such a comment?


I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.

ATi doesn't have the money or resources to fight fire with fire. And I don't want to see them bowing out, because some twat executive has a personal genda to top Nvidia for several months.

 

[[I.R.A]_FBi]

ATi has not "gave the finger" to heat and noise. The 48xx series is much quieter than any previous series. They slowed the fan speed down to achieve this, and the cards run hotter. Is this an "overheating issue"?....No, if they ran 100+, then there would be an issue. The cards run at a perfectly fine temperature, and the 4850 is single-slot, huge plus for alot of people.

Comparing a GTX280 to a 4850 is not right, they both use different coolers, the GTX280 use's a large dual-slot cooler, the 4850 a small single-slot cooler. I would like to see Nvidia release a GTX2xx card with a single-slot cooler. Put that dual-slot cooler on the 4850 and it would load in the 50's. 4850's idle at high 60's, and peak at 80....same as alot of cards on the market.

heat and temperature are two different things. Recognize.

also changing teh 4850 fanspeed to 35% drops temps significantly.

 

[Megasty]

Both cards can run near 100c on load with the stock cooler settings. This was most likely a mistake by ATi to keep noise down because both cards are completely silent. I hate silent video cards. I like to hear them click when the system boots up & I want to hear the fan while gaming. But those fans can be the loudest on the planet if you turn them up to 100%. I see ATi fixing this with later released cards. The GPUs can take the heat but most users can't, atleast I know I can't

They must know that the cards are stuck at 18% but the cards are hardly more noisy at 50% & the cards don't even reach 75c at that speed.

 

[panchoman]

yeh that is what i talking about, super rv 770 , but i hope to add havok physics too , that will be best card for 2008

they have cuda.. why would they use havoc when havoc is owned by intel, a huge rival to amd..?

 

[aj28]

That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;

Frustrated much? And I dig the "fan'boism" comment, particularly for the irony...

-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.

Ooooooh the irony... Yes, there it is... *cough*fanboy*cough*

Oh hey, so while we're on the topic of energy efficiency, can we talk about economic efficiency? Let's not joke around, nVidia could stand to focus on that a bit as well...

The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?

I've almost gained a little bit of respect for you here, what with the highly emotional and ethical approach you take to picking out your components, but I can't help but find your argument entirely one-sided and, frankly, a little ridiculous.

ATi isn't compromising any of its values here.. The only reason their new cards run so hot is because they're practically silent and, in the case of the 4850 you so viciously attacked earlier in the thread, can be outfitted with single-slot coolers. We're talking not only half the heatsink material (very important for load temps), but a fan that's half the height of the GTX260/280's as well, and thus moves a whole heck of a lot less air.

I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.

Evidently nVidia wasn't sleeping, what with the paper-launched 9800GTX+ they released in the middle of the night... Now you want to talk about tricky business practices?

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but really man, how can you make this kind of argument? ATi has delivered higher-performing, quieter chips that take up less room and cost less than the HD3 series. How can you possibly turn that into an attack on their ethics?

Now you could be right on the whole heat argument, as we all know that heat and high voltage are surefire killers of silicon-based microchips, but we won't know how that's affected the lifespan of these cards until we see them start going out en masse. Until then? Buy Visiontek. Lifetime warranty FTW!

 

[[I.R.A]_FBi]

Both cards can run near 100c on load with the stock cooler settings. This was most likely a mistake by ATi to keep noise down because both cards are completely silent. I hate silent video cards. I like to hear them click when the system boots up & I want to hear the fan while gaming. But those fans can be the loudest on the planet if you turn them up to 100%. I see ATi fixing this with later released cards. The GPUs can take the heat but most users can't, atleast I know I can't

They must know that the cards are stuck at 18% but the cards are hardly more noisy at 50% & the cards don't even reach 75c at that speed.

this argument/line of reasoning makes no sense

again i say, heat and temperature are 2 different things.

 

[oli_ramsay]

That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;



The point was that the 4800s ARE louder, hotter and consume more at a considerably larger percentage in just one generation jump. This aspect has been a big part of their forte in the past.
Although, it looks like they got tired of that approach, and chucked it to the bin, like I said before, to catch up to Nvidia.

And I'm all for it, at least the performance gain, just not the ethics.

However, let's not bullshit here. If Nvidia puts out a power house card, the first damn thing people speculate on, is that it's going to be a 'dog,' a mini radiator that could heat your room in the winter, etc. And in the past at times, such claims would have been valid, however Nvidia, in one generation, has improved upon this issue.

-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.

What happens to the 'price/performance' cliche, when you have to change your case, and/or buy aftermarket coolers to compensate???






Now what do you expect is going to happen when they do this 'unlocking' the clocks non-sense and actually have increased voltages? Que the waterblock?


The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?

Remember what's his face from ATi saying publically that the X2 would dominate a GTX 280?
When was the last time ATi made such a comment?


I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.

ATi doesn't have the money or resources to fight fire with fire. And I don't want to see them bowing out, because some twat executive has a personal genda to top Nvidia for several months.

 

[Megasty]

this argument/line of reasoning makes no sense

again i say, heat and temperature are 2 different things.

Can you elaborate a bit.

The RV770 GPU creates a certain amount of heat during operation. The heatsink try to dissipate this heat while the fan blows air over the heatsink to allow for more heat dissipation. We measure the heat of the GPU by looking at its idle & load temps. WTH, are you just trying to make things over complicated cause I think I completely missed something. Sorry for not understanding

 

[[I.R.A]_FBi]

the device can make a small about of heat but due to certain factors (ex poor qulaity heat sink, poor thermal interface, low fan speed) have a high temperature.

Heat and temperature are cousins but they are not a direct corellation.

The company gives you the option of increasing teh fan, there are anvenues to do so. This cannot make one company worse than the other. If the heatskin itself was woefully inadequate now that would be a cause for concern.