Endgame Gear OP1 8K

[pzogel]

Weighing no more than 49 g, the ambidextrous OP1 8K promises exceptionally low latency, owing to its 8000 Hz polling rate and custom Kailh GX main button switches, which reduce actuation latency even further. PixArt's PAW3395 sensor is used, along with pure PTFE feet and a particularly flexible cable.

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[Onasi]

Yeah, this is arguably the peak of wired mice. I don't think there is anything out there that is better.

 

[ymdhis]

Yeah, this is arguably the peak of wired mice. I don't think there is anything out there that is better.

Will it develop double click issues or a jumpy scrollbar after a mere single year of use?

EDIT: it's also missing the button below the scroll wheel that most mice use to change DPI. The inability to change DPI isn't a problem, but I have that button set up for a simple macro which is very useful at work. Which is a moot point because the software can't set up macros.

So the hardware may be good but the software is not.

 

[Onasi]

Will it develop double click issues or a jumpy scrollbar after a mere single year of use?

Impossible to know at this stage, but EGG mice are generally well regarded in terms of durability, so take that as you will.

I have that button set up for a simple macro which is very useful at work. Which is a moot point because the software can't set up macros.

Yes, it’s a primarily competitive oriented mouse. Of course. Nobody sane buys a light mouse whose entire raison d’etre is low latency and gaming performance for work.

So the hardware may be good but the software is not.

The software is actually excellent for its purpose since it’s minimal and out of the way.

 

[Chrispy_]

The mouse industry makes no sense to me.

"It has to be light because gamers make rapid large movements"
"26,000dpi"

Which one is it?

I play at 1200dpi on my *flips mouse upside down to look at label* Basilisk V3 Pro, which gets me both precision aiming at distant targets as well as about four 360° spins without even taking my wrist off the mousepad (I use fingertip grip). I used to play at 800dpi but that was in the days of 4:3, so I made the adjustment to 1200dpi when 16:9 screens became the default for game devs. Why, exactly does my mouse go up to 30,000 dpi? Is four 360° spins not enough for one swipe, how is spinning four times on the spot any less useless than spinning 100x on the spot?

 

[paulo sordoni]

Does a 8k mouse make you hit shots better in fast paced FPS twitch shooters compared to an equivalent 1000hz mouse, basically will it make me a better player?

 

[Chrispy_]

Does a 8k mouse make you hit shots better in fast paced FPS twitch shooters compared to an equivalent 1000hz mouse, basically will it make me a better player?

Well obviously!

It means the 25.00ms of click-to-pixel response that covers all 9 (or more) steps in the "input > debounce > polling > DXInput > Game Engine > Graphics driver > screen buffer > display refresh rate > pixel response time" chain is now only 24.12ms, assuming you're already playing an eSports game at 240fps on a 240Hz display with all the anti-lag technologies enabled.

Now your ~200ms human reflexes have a chance of missing that vital headshot 0.4% faster - because accuracy and speed don't tend to go together in humans - we can do one at the expense of the other, so the real answer is to get a very very consistent mouse with very linear tracking on all types of surfaces at all sensible tracking speeds and train your muscle memory better.

Polling rate is yet another dumb marketing number alongside DPI that that they can inflate to make the mouse seem better on paper but I'm pretty sure the best, fastest, most accurate FPS players in the world aren't going to be hindered by a 2000dpi mouse or a lowly 1000Hz polling rate. What they absolutely 100% care about though are their tracking linearity and their mousepad feel, because that's what their muscle memory needs for fast precision.

 

[paulo sordoni]

Well obviously!

It means the 25ms of click-to-pixel response that covers all 9 (or more) steps in the "input > debounce > polling > DXInput > Game Engine > Graphics driver > screen buffer > display refresh rate > pixel response time" chain is now only 19ms, assuming you're already playing an eSports game at 240fps on a 240Hz display with all the anti-lag technologies enabled.

Now your ~200ms human reflexes have a chance of missing that vital headshot 0.4% faster.

You have sold it to me, I am ordering this very moment

 

[Chrispy_]

You have sold it to me, I am ordering this very moment

Don't forget to pay the $50 premium same-day delivery, because you need to aim faster faster.

 

[Synthwave]

Yeah, this is arguably the peak of wired mice. I don't think there is anything out there that is better.

Zaunkoenig, but yeah, the OP1 is top shelf stuff.

 

[529th]

Ordered this out of curiosity. Been using it for maybe a week now and coming from a Raver Viper 8K 1st Gen the click latency has been consistent and lower compared to the Viper. Both mice work best ~ 3200 DPI at 8K polling, apparently it offers the lowest mouse movement to photon delay, and it's noticeable when dropping down to 4K. I use a 390Hz monitor also so that's important to remember.

Curious about the firmware, did i see 1.16? latest on the website as of today is 1.09

 

[Onasi]

@Chrispy_
DPI/CPI by itself is a pointless metric. Saying “I play at X DPI” is meaningless since games all have different ways of implementing sensitivity and 1600 at 3 in one game might be 1600 at 10 in another. The only sane and consistent way of relaying your sens is cm/360.
But, uh, I am not surprised you are using high sens. Fingertip with a Basilisk is… an interesting choice. I too wouldn’t try low sense on something like that, I still value my sanity.

Does a 8k mouse make you hit shots better in fast paced FPS twitch shooters compared to an equivalent 1000hz mouse, basically will it make me a better player?

Theoretically, the benefit exists. In practice, even a Tier 1 pro-player in a LAN setting with a 540Hz screen would struggle to tell the difference above 2000.

Zaunkoenig, but yeah, the OP1 is top shelf stuff.

I omitted it on purpose since it’s very specialized, hard to get and is insanely pricey. Plus, I have my own axe to grind there. As a looooong time fingertip grip player, I don’t really think that “a rectangle” is the optimal shape. I feel like the MZ1 or the recent Keychron M4 are actually closer to what’s needed, though me personally, I would like someone to clone and modernize the Zowie Mico.

 

[Tripwired]

Well obviously!

It means the 25.00ms of click-to-pixel response that covers all 9 (or more) steps in the "input > debounce > polling > DXInput > Game Engine > Graphics driver > screen buffer > display refresh rate > pixel response time" chain is now only 24.12ms, assuming you're already playing an eSports game at 240fps on a 240Hz display with all the anti-lag technologies enabled.

Now your ~200ms human reflexes have a chance of missing that vital headshot 0.4% faster - because accuracy and speed don't tend to go together in humans - we can do one at the expense of the other, so the real answer is to get a very very consistent mouse with very linear tracking on all types of surfaces at all sensible tracking speeds and train your muscle memory better.

Polling rate is yet another dumb marketing number alongside DPI that that they can inflate to make the mouse seem better on paper but I'm pretty sure the best, fastest, most accurate FPS players in the world aren't going to be hindered by a 2000dpi mouse or a lowly 1000Hz polling rate. What they absolutely 100% care about though are their tracking linearity and their mousepad feel, because that's what their muscle memory needs for fast precision.

You lost me at precise aiming with 4 360 spins and 2007 muscle memory pseudo science. Muscle memory doesn't really exist in shooters. Otherwise pretty much true in terms of polling rate/dpi. Although.. I will say the click speed has a noticeable difference for me and I've never been one to fuss or even tell the difference between clicks on most mice. I bought it to test the shape without knowing anything about the unique switch actuation and noticed straight away that right clicking on the desktop felt almost instantaneous. It does for me feel noticeably snappier than say my old Zowie Ec2-B

 

[Onasi]

I bought it to test the shape without knowing anything about the unique switch actuation and noticed straight away that right clicking on the desktop felt almost instantaneous. It does for me feel noticeably snappier than say my old Zowie Ec2-B

To be fair, those older Zowie mice had pretty notoriously “slower” clicks, both in terms of latency, default 8 ms debounce and overall stiffness of Huanos. So your case of going from those slow-but-usable clicks to literally the fastest ones available is probably the one case where you can actually spot a difference in a A-B test.

 

[Tripwired]

To be fair, those older Zowie mice had pretty notoriously “slower” clicks, both in terms of latency, default 8 ms debounce and overall stiffness of Huanos. So your case of going from those slow-but-usable clicks to literally the fastest ones available is probably the one case where you can actually spot a difference in a A-B test.

That was more just an extreme example to be honest, I was using a wired Cobra prior to the op18k. Still noticed the difference in feel though for sure.

 

[Chrispy_]

DPI/CPI by itself is a pointless metric. Saying “I play at X DPI” is meaningless since games all have different ways of implementing sensitivity and 1600 at 3 in one game might be 1600 at 10 in another. The only sane and consistent way of relaying your sens is cm/360.

100% agreed. If you could get game to use CPI and cm/360 that would be fantastic, but not in 35 years of mouse gaming have I ever seen a game ask for cm/360, so I've been using calculators for the last 20 years or so to try and match the sensitivity that originally trained my muscle memory (Quake 3 Arena, Logi MX300 fixed 800dpi mouse, with tournament rules of 125fps max and pmove_fixed=1).

I basically use Quake3 as my default because id software got it right 25 years ago by exposing filtering, acceleration, mouse capture method, CPI count, pitch and yaw scales independently, all via console commands that could be saved to your default config.

If games simply asked "what cm/360" would you like, that would be fantastic. I'd just answer "5.08cm" and provide dpi settings for the mouse if that isn't exposed by the dxinput.

But, uh, I am not surprised you are using high sens. Fingertip with a Basilisk is… an interesting choice.

I had to look because I didn't pay for this mouse, it was gifted as a promo - I use loads of different mice and Razer are right down at the bottom of my list of preferences, but I have huge hands so I can comfortably fingertip-grip anything as long as the sides are vertical at some point.

What matters to me is linear tracking at 800-1600CPI because regardless of how you handle game sensitivity settings, Windows adds the least interference/jitter/scaling with the slider in the middle and acceleration (enhance pointer precision) unticked. The only way to get 1:1 mouse input to any application that doesn't sample raw mouse values is to use that middle mouse speed setting in Windows, which means 800-1600cpi is a reasonable range for working on 1080p to 4K displays for me, especially with the large number of games that still use the Windows cursor positioning for menus or UI elements.

You lost me at precise aiming with 4 360 spins and 2007 muscle memory pseudo science. Muscle memory doesn't really exist in shooters. Otherwise pretty much true in terms of polling rate/dpi. Although.. I will say the click speed has a noticeable difference for me and I've never been one to fuss or even tell the difference between clicks on most mice. I bought it to test the shape without knowing anything about the unique switch actuation and noticed straight away that right clicking on the desktop felt almost instantaneous. It does for me feel noticeably snappier than say my old Zowie Ec2-B

4x 360-degree spins in one sweep is 5cm (2inches) per 360, which seems to be a pretty normal, ordinary, common range for game sensitivity as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't class myself as low sensitivity (people who pick up the mouse after a 180-degree turn) nor high sensitivity (will use 8000dpi in windows at that cursor speed, travelling across the entirety of two 4K monitors with an inch of mouse movement)

 

[Onasi]

The only way to get 1:1 mouse input to any application that doesn't sample raw mouse values is to use that middle mouse speed setting in Windows, which means 800-1600cpi is a reasonable range for working on 1080p to 4K displays for me, especially with the large number of games that still use the Windows cursor positioning for menus or UI elements.

Thankfully, most modern competitive games use raw input and even implement sub-tick polling for their online modes. But yeah, apart from 6/11 I also vaguely remember using a registry mouse fix on Windows 7 to fix older games, like GldSrc ones, from implementing forced smoothing for no reason.

4x 360-degree spins in one sweep is 5cm (2inches) per 360, which seems to be a pretty normal, ordinary, common range for game sensitivity as far as I can tell.

I am not telling you how to live your life, but 5cm/360 is absolutely high sens. Like… absurdly so. Nothing common about it, that’s for sure. I struggle to think of a single known pro player in Quake or UT who plays on that. Let alone slower games. I mean, my usual go-to is around 30cm and I would consider myself medium-high. Ordinary high would be 15-25. 5 is insanity to me, but if it works for you - who am I to judge.

 

[Tripwired]

I am not telling you how to live your life, but 5cm/360 is absolutely high sens. Like… absurdly so. Nothing common about it, that’s for sure. I struggle to think of a single known pro player in Quake or UT who plays on that. Let alone slower games. I mean, my usual go-to is around 30cm and I would consider myself medium-high. Ordinary high would be 15-25. 5 is insanity to me, but if it works for you - who am I to judge.

Yeah agreed 5cm is absurdly high. I would consider anything between 10cm-15cm very very high even.

100% agreed. If you could get game to use CPI and cm/360 that would be fantastic, but not in 35 years of mouse gaming have I ever seen a game ask for cm/360, so I've been using calculators for the last 20 years or so to try and match the sensitivity that originally trained my muscle memory.

I get your thinking with this but honestly muscle memory isn't really a thing in shooters, it's an outdated myth from back in the day. Aiming requires active adaptation not unconscious reactivity. 5cm is just a sens your comfortable with, but the mind adapts to new variables aka a new sens faster than you think. To truly have good aim you should learn all sensitivity ranges, that way you can incorporate arm/wrist/fingers into your playstyle. By playing that high you're most likely creating a ceiling that is holding you back. Think of sensitivity as a tool for a job, not a specific number you're tied to. I can play any sensitivity well, but play best around 28cm-32cm in Quake, and 40cm-55cm in CS. I'd rather be able to adapt to a situation instead of banking on an ideal situation i've encountered before happening exactly as it did before and pray all the conditions are the same.

 

[ymdhis]

Impossible to know at this stage, but EGG mice are generally well regarded in terms of durability, so take that as you will.


Yes, it’s a primarily competitive oriented mouse. Of course. Nobody sane buys a light mouse whose entire raison d’etre is low latency and gaming performance for work.


The software is actually excellent for its purpose since it’s minimal and out of the way.

I actually do use a "gaming" mouse for work, because it has more accurate sensors, and macros can be really helpful for work. So in that sense, the gaming software is indeed useful for office work. For example imagine having a mouse with a large amount of buttons, like the ones designed for mmorpgs, where you can put your photoshop macros (aka Actions) on each button, or even just ctrl/alt/shift/space so you can control everything from a mouse more easily.

I don't use those though, just pointing it out as a possible user case (I use a standard button layout, with the two side buttons repurposed as Ctrl and middle click and the cpu changer as an infinite left click macro). And the standard cheap office mice we had here were wildly inaccurate, they had the cursor moving randomly even if the mouse was sitting still, so a more expensive mouse was required. And there's no "accurate office mouse", anything with more accurate sensors at the time was rgb-led 1000Hz 6400dpi corsair link logitech g hub RED DRAGON X7 gamer mouse.

 

[Chrispy_]

Yeah agreed 5cm is absurdly high. I would consider anything between 10cm-15cm very very high even.

I get your thinking with this but honestly muscle memory isn't really a thing in shooters, it's an outdated myth from back in the day. Aiming requires active adaptation not unconscious reactivity. 5cm is just a sens your comfortable with, but the mind adapts to new variables aka a new sens faster than you think. To truly have good aim you should learn all sensitivity ranges, that way you can incorporate arm/wrist/fingers into your playstyle. By playing that high you're most likely creating a ceiling that is holding you back. Think of sensitivity as a tool for a job, not a specific number you're tied to. I can play any sensitivity well, but play best around 28cm-32cm in Quake, and 40cm-55cm in CS. I'd rather be able to adapt to a situation instead of banking on an ideal situation i've encountered before happening exactly as it did before and pray all the conditions are the same.

You guys are both kind of reinforcing my original point then; If my sensitivity is higher than average, and I'm struggling to find any point in >1600cpi, you have pros like Fatal1ty and Shroud using 400-450cpi and 1/4 my sensitivity.

If I'm at the extreme end of high-sensitivity and 2000cpi is complete overkill for me, why do we have 30,000cpi on mice, exactly? The casuals like us don't need it, the pros avoid it like the plague and use 1995-era cpi settings, 30,000cpi is just pure bollocks, right?!

Realistically, 30,000cpi is enough sensitivity to cross a triple 4K surround setup, *in its entirety*, in just 9mm of mouse movement. Who on earth thought that was a good idea?!!

Helldivers2 was an interesting experience for me, in terms of mouse sensitivity. The slider goes from 0-10, but the default (which was pretty close to what I found reasonable) was 0.07. I think I wanted 0.08 but the next increment was 0.10, and the increment below 0.07 was 0.05. To me, that was absurd, to have a 0-10 scale, and not have 5 as the default, but also have every setting from "too slow" to "too fast" occupy the 0.03 to 0.10 range. The other 99% of the slider was so fast it was farcical.

 

[Tripwired]

You guys are both kind of reinforcing my original point then; If my sensitivity is higher than average, and I'm struggling to find any point in >1600cpi, you have pros like Fatal1ty and Shroud using 400-450cpi and 1/4 my sensitivity.

If I'm at the extreme end of high-sensitivity and 2000cpi is complete overkill for me, why do we have 30,000cpi on mice, exactly? The casuals like us don't need it, the pros avoid it like the plague and use 1995-era cpi settings, 30,000cpi is just pure bollocks, right?!

Yeah, it's a marketing gimmick/bragging number at this point. I still play on 800dpi now even. Alot of games stutter with 8khz and unless you have a high refresh rate screen you will hardly notice the bennefits. It's just diminishing returns+extra cpu load. Although can't take away the fact that the op18k is still the best mouse ive ever used.

 

[Onasi]

@Chrispy_ @Tripwired
It’s not a even a good marketing gimmick, it’s just mouse manufacturers taking a number from Pixarts spec sheet which isn’t really meant for anything other than denoting the maximum potential resolving ability of the sensor and using it as some sort of “beneficial” feature. When, really, it’s as irrelevant to cite as the maximum acceleration. Sensors have become real good. Like, there is no actual practical difference between the “Top” ones and the somewhat more budget ones nowadays. They are all, essentially, flawless. Sure, there are psychos on Reddit or Blurbusters who will swear up and down that there are totally perceptible differences between various sensors still, but apart from DPI deviation of different mouse models, which is a function of firmware implementation and not the sensor, I’ve seen no evidence that different mice with different modern sensors will perform any differently when set to the same CPI step.

Now, as to the question of “Is there a point of DPI above 1600” - sure, somewhat, theoretically. One is that resolutions will probably still increase in the future and on, say, 8K using 3200 would be a logical step up for someone using 1600 at 1440p/4K for desktop tasks. Another one is that, if you really want to use high polling with, say, a 500+Hz display (and potentially possible future ones that are even faster), then you really want higher DPI to saturate that. Of course, questions about how actually meaningful and beneficial that is are still open, but I am just presenting a technical explanation here. @pzogel can back me up on this, he mentions the same in his testing.

 

[Chrispy_]

Yeah, the oversampling (so 1000Hz polling on a 240Hz display, in my case) seems useful to input the same way oversampling like antialiasing is useful for visuals - it'll smooth out the motion a bit, though I suspect diminishing returns kick in very fast, basic analogue-to-digital math says you're looking at very diminished returns beyond 2.5x the sample rate.

I'd like to know if there's any situation where 2K polling is actually beneficial. Last time I read about it in-depth, the difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz was negligible at 144Hz, again making that 2.5x oversampling factor pretty valid. 144Hz isn't the fastest display any more, and a few of the more competitive games oversample the mouse between frames too.

Although can't take away the fact that the op18k is still the best mouse ive ever used.

At 800dpi
Accuracy, linearity, consistency at low dpi is what I look for in any review, followed by the click latency, followed by the price.
The click latency on this OP1 is off the charts! (ie, better than the fastest prior reference mouse)