al_bundy
LiquidExtasy Rep
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2023
- Messages
- 78 (0.16/day)
- Location
- Germany
Translated by google:
Hello community,
I'm going back to rehab soon and need some sound and I need something compact and relatively inexpensive. What I haven't built yet is my own project with a 3" full-range driver with sub support. I searched a lot and found what I was looking for at Lautsprechershop.de. Again
I chose the Visaton SL87 FE as the full-range driver because it apparently only needs a little volume, plays a little deeper than many other drivers and with 2.6mm stroke it also seems to have some reserves. And above all, at around €18 it's unbeatably cheap.
The project was actually supposed to be equipped with Chinese technology at the bottom. I ordered a 3" Chinese woofer and a 3" passive membrane especially for a very small bill. They look good, but who knows what will come of them. Both the Chinese driver and the Chinese passive membrane are mounted quite tightly and the project has to work because I don't want to torture my ears for 3 months in rehab. So the Chinese stuff was excluded without being tested (something will be built later from a raw MDF housing). For the bottom, I decided to go with the 3" Tang Band W3-1876S subwoofer, which already looked good in my first Bluetooth speaker.
I then started to design with the requirement that the height is secondary and the depth should be under 20cm if possible. I didn't manage that with 20.1 cm. But it's better than many other mini speakers that extend far beyond 20cm at the back and seem rather impotent at the bottom due to the lack of a subwoofer. The width is OK at 195mm, although we have an internal dimension of just 144mm here. The rest is solid wood with a board thickness of 25mm. This also allowed me to create a generous 2.5D structure to sink the passive membrane. It's certainly not a pretty one, but something different. The wood was quite cheap to find at Designholz.com, who have a large selection. Since I already know Ebonyfineline from the sports equipment construction and this fits in with my concept with cream-colored leather, I decided on this design.
The passive membranes are from Dayton Audio type ND 90 PR and the sub got two. That fits quite well. The full-range speaker also got one, which slightly worsens the overall appearance, both visually and acoustically. I thought the full-range speaker would come out more at the bottom. It can... but not at the level I was aiming for. Which brings us to the topic of drive and filter. The system is powered by a cheap 15€ Chinese amp in 2.1 version. It should be equalized with the HS-Sound DSP type Tinyshine TSA1701, as I also used in the first and second Bluetooth speaker.
First of all, this is my first attempt at equalizing a driver myself, which worked only partially. I first filtered the full-range speaker to death. Sound good, but quiet. Then I looked at Lautsprechershop.de to see if the guys with the Visaton SL87 FE were offering a kit. They are. So I ordered a crossover. Soldered the stuff together, installed it and mhm... The original should come out at up to 60hz... far from that... But the level is incredibly loud. And that for such a small speaker.
Well... Into Sigma 4.6 and configured the DSP. I pushed 400-60hz by about 8db and reduced the level above those frequencies by 3db. That's pretty good, although you can't really call it bass yet. But at least we've hit the lower midrange well and the treble is fine too. Then add the sub and made small adjustments to the DSP in the 20-125hz range using the rotary potentiometers on the amplifier. Yeah. It's OK
Below 55hz I filtered out everything that was possible. The woofer has a bit of lag so we can get down to 50hz with decent efficiency. This can also be reproduced fairly well using the frequency generator from Winisd. It's not deep bass but it's definitely sufficient and a bit better than anything I've heard in the same size/price range. Other speakers of this size have problems pushing properly at 60hz. The speaker even sounds more voluminous than the Mimir I use in my home cinema area, which is described as 40hz@-8db. ... so either the Mimir can't reach 40hz at this level or my speaker goes further down... In my opinion, the Mimir is a very, very good speaker for home cinema because it sounds very precise and offers very good vocal reproduction for a 2-way speaker. Dryness and detail are also among the outstanding properties of the Mimir.
... Very rarely, in principle never (but this is only my third DSP project) have I had to make an adjustment above 500hz. Everything sounded well straight away despite the slightly wider baffle that the Digibox 87 FE wants (150mm).
In short, you can say that from top to bottom everything is in the place where it belongs with a 1.7L volume for the sub and a 3.1L volume for the full-range speaker. With a housing size of 337x201x195 including amplifier and DSP, we are very tight here and happy with what comes out of the thing. 3.5mm jack on the side of the pom cover. 5.5/2.5mm hollow plug on the pom cover for power supply + inspection hatch for the DSP for quick and easy adjustment.
Sound description:
Even without a crossover, my first impression was: Chinga de madre… that’s not bad… After final equalization without a crossover, I was disappointed because of the lack of level. Then put in the crossover. Same impression. The thing is loud, but where is the bass? (Sub was off) … The broadband also has to take over the bass range a bit…
Well, but with the crossover and DSP, the result was good as expected. If we now add up everything, that we didn’t have to make any earth-shattering corrections at the top with the DSP and crossover and that the sub, when set up correctly, also works well for such a small part, then you can imagine what the conclusion will be.
It doesn’t add anything, you don’t miss anything at the top and the result is really good. It is slightly lacking in deep bass. The full-range speaker doesn't drum as hard (which I find extremely appealing) as the Picolino 3 with its Scanpeak 10F-8414G10, but it doesn't have quite as fine a resolution, which isn't what you'd expect from an 18€ driver. (One reason why this project will be available in large format with the Scanpeak 10F-8414G10, as already announced elsewhere).
The sound is as it should be and even at lower volumes a large stage is created. You can tell that a subwoofer is being used, even if it's only a 3" woofer. The project reproduces the music neatly and precisely. Everything is in its correct place and the playback is relatively dry (not too dry as is the case with the Picolino 3). The level is also well above room volume and sensitive neighbors in the prefab building might ring the doorbell. It's also nice to hear the non-annoying hissing sound of the full-range speaker or strange frequencies caused by the use of flangers in tracks, which I find positively unusual. Not all speakers I have owned could do that, even though the drivers cost many times more than the Visaton SL87 FE. You could say: crossover well constructed, Mr. Timmermann
If I had to summarize it briefly. The box has no outstanding weaknesses for this size, but it does have a nice neutrality. If the highs were a bit softer like the LIA AMTs, it would be my perfect box for this size, even if it lacks a bit in terms of level and depth. External sub support is always possible... ... in an emergency, but that is not necessary for my use. For everyday use, the box can handle any situation. Both at the top and bottom, and in terms of level. Really an absolute recommendation for the price level and size. It should be clear that an 18€ broadband speaker cannot do the job as a 680€ AMT, especially if it also has to work at the bottom....
You don't really need more speakers and, above all, more financial investment in hardware for these tasks. Overall, I like it better than the Bluetooth speaker V1, which is quieter but can go deeper and has a little more resolution at the top. The overall picture is simply better than a 2-way speaker because it has a point sound source and no crossover frequencies. I also like it better than my Bluetooth speaker V2, which I'm taking out again for this project and neutering a little more at the bottom than it currently has. Version 3 clearly shows that a 4" coax has to be able to do more in the V2 than it does now. Simply filter more at the bottom and let the sub do more work.
I also have to break some bread with Lautsprechershop.de. The kits are available for a very, very long time. Drivers as well. The guys also offer crossover parts and the support is really good. I actually wanted to stop by BPA and use one of their highly praised broadband speakers. However, the drivers are changed every 3-4 years. For my projects, I not only need great offers, which BPA also provides, but also continuity/long-term availability. However, I find that more easily at Lautsprechershop.de, in addition to the really immense selection. There really is something for everyone. Acoustic Design is certainly also a good place to go for speakers. But the technical data and the scope of delivery of the kits are completely missing from the descriptions. I simply need that to choose a kit. So everything depends on Lautsprechershop.de
But that is just my personal opinion. Even if Lautsprechershop once sponsored a passive membrane for €20, it doesn't make this shop any more attractive to me. They are just good. This time the project was not financed by third parties but was carried out alone and there is no economic cooperation with Lautsprechershop.de. I don't want another troll to come along and spam the thread with it.
If we want to make an unfair comparison between the Sony Bluetooth speakers and the Marshall Bluetooth speakers, it should be noted that the Sonys are quite thick at the bottom and hardly deliver any level and quickly distort. The Marshalls are loud but nothing happens at the bottom and the top often becomes muddy. The JPL extreme 4 sounds quite good and has a good level but it's a bit lacking at the bottom even though it's a bit smaller than my homegrown product and costs more (almost €300). I haven't heard the much more expensive JBL Boombox 3 yet, but it's bigger and extremely expensive at €500.
I paid €70 for the broadband project30€ leather
30€ passive membrane
50€ woofer
10€ MDF
50€ Ebony Fineline
10€ glue
15€ amplifier
40€ DSP
20€ pom cover
325€ and around 100€ of that to look chic for leather, Ebony Fineline and a pom cover that you can print much cheaper. It also works with raw MDF and a pot of paint + roller for around 20€. Considering what you can buy, what would be possible in terms of design (if you are not as inept at design as I am) and what comes out of it from top to bottom, the price is damn good. The size is not exactly mobile but the woofer has proven that it can do a lot of ballet even in 1.1L. See Bluetooth speaker V1. With this combination, good results are also possible with 35% less volume, which means we are already moving towards large mobile speakers. Anyway: The side walls took around 48 hours to mill lol.
For a real hi-fi experience, you obviously need more. Either an 8-12" woofer with a 2-way and 6" TMT or something big as a floor-standing speaker. You can find something really audiophile-worthy for under €500/piece (passive without DSP) but it's also pretty demanding. I'm sticking with it. For everyday use, cheap speakers up to ~ €150/box (passive without DSP, self-built, pure hi-fi costs) are more than sufficient. If you want it to be really good, just add another €500-600. Everything in between hasn't convinced me in terms of price-performance so far. Since I'm well equipped with the LIA AMT, there will only be "cheap projects" that could be a bit more expensive because of real wood and leather as well as DSP.
Up to around €500, you only replace inadequacies with cheaper speakers. There is always something to complain about. With more investment, there is no longer any. That does not mean that €100 home-made speakers are no good. But as already mentioned, you cannot expect a €100 project to deliver high-end sound to your ears. Either there is a lack of fine resolution, or there is a hissing noise, the parts are too big, not enough comes out at the bottom, there is a lack of level, or or or... For €500, you get everything within the limits of physics.
A €100 home-made speaker with DSP is more powerful than a €400 speaker without DSP. Anyway. The Lia AMTS run without DSP. They don't need it. They are really great pieces and not bitchy in the setup like a Duetta, which can also do outstanding things. So if you ask me, buy a solid kit for around €100-150/piece and pay attention to the fine detail, put a DSP behind it and put a 6-12" sub underneath, the driver of which doesn't have to cost €400. I bought my Wavecore SW270W01 10 years ago for €130. It costs twice as much today and really packs a punch.
An Omnes Audio SW6.01 only costs €35 and does an excellent job. The SW 8.01 (€46) is already available with 36mm walnut. I expect a lot from it. When I look at my Dayton Audio RSS315HF4 and what it pushes out of 70l, I don't really like it much better than the small SW6.01 in 14l, except that the big thing pushes out a lot more volume, which I don't need in my 25sqm living room anyway. The €400 Hypex DS4 active module on the large sub basically did nothing different than the cheap Monacor Sam 300D for significantly less than half the financial investment that is operated on my Wavecore SW270WA01. Guys, don't throw your money out the window. I also think the more expensive things in the mid-range are good. But not much better than the cheaper price segment. Especially in the subwoofer area and with DSP, you can get a lot out of it and remove the stumbling blocks of a more expensive stereo pair.
I hope you liked the report. Give it a thumbs up if this forum allows it.
PS: Wood still needs to be oiled and aluminum could still be anodized...
Hello community,
I'm going back to rehab soon and need some sound and I need something compact and relatively inexpensive. What I haven't built yet is my own project with a 3" full-range driver with sub support. I searched a lot and found what I was looking for at Lautsprechershop.de. Again
I chose the Visaton SL87 FE as the full-range driver because it apparently only needs a little volume, plays a little deeper than many other drivers and with 2.6mm stroke it also seems to have some reserves. And above all, at around €18 it's unbeatably cheap.
The project was actually supposed to be equipped with Chinese technology at the bottom. I ordered a 3" Chinese woofer and a 3" passive membrane especially for a very small bill. They look good, but who knows what will come of them. Both the Chinese driver and the Chinese passive membrane are mounted quite tightly and the project has to work because I don't want to torture my ears for 3 months in rehab. So the Chinese stuff was excluded without being tested (something will be built later from a raw MDF housing). For the bottom, I decided to go with the 3" Tang Band W3-1876S subwoofer, which already looked good in my first Bluetooth speaker.
I then started to design with the requirement that the height is secondary and the depth should be under 20cm if possible. I didn't manage that with 20.1 cm. But it's better than many other mini speakers that extend far beyond 20cm at the back and seem rather impotent at the bottom due to the lack of a subwoofer. The width is OK at 195mm, although we have an internal dimension of just 144mm here. The rest is solid wood with a board thickness of 25mm. This also allowed me to create a generous 2.5D structure to sink the passive membrane. It's certainly not a pretty one, but something different. The wood was quite cheap to find at Designholz.com, who have a large selection. Since I already know Ebonyfineline from the sports equipment construction and this fits in with my concept with cream-colored leather, I decided on this design.
The passive membranes are from Dayton Audio type ND 90 PR and the sub got two. That fits quite well. The full-range speaker also got one, which slightly worsens the overall appearance, both visually and acoustically. I thought the full-range speaker would come out more at the bottom. It can... but not at the level I was aiming for. Which brings us to the topic of drive and filter. The system is powered by a cheap 15€ Chinese amp in 2.1 version. It should be equalized with the HS-Sound DSP type Tinyshine TSA1701, as I also used in the first and second Bluetooth speaker.
First of all, this is my first attempt at equalizing a driver myself, which worked only partially. I first filtered the full-range speaker to death. Sound good, but quiet. Then I looked at Lautsprechershop.de to see if the guys with the Visaton SL87 FE were offering a kit. They are. So I ordered a crossover. Soldered the stuff together, installed it and mhm... The original should come out at up to 60hz... far from that... But the level is incredibly loud. And that for such a small speaker.
Well... Into Sigma 4.6 and configured the DSP. I pushed 400-60hz by about 8db and reduced the level above those frequencies by 3db. That's pretty good, although you can't really call it bass yet. But at least we've hit the lower midrange well and the treble is fine too. Then add the sub and made small adjustments to the DSP in the 20-125hz range using the rotary potentiometers on the amplifier. Yeah. It's OK
Below 55hz I filtered out everything that was possible. The woofer has a bit of lag so we can get down to 50hz with decent efficiency. This can also be reproduced fairly well using the frequency generator from Winisd. It's not deep bass but it's definitely sufficient and a bit better than anything I've heard in the same size/price range. Other speakers of this size have problems pushing properly at 60hz. The speaker even sounds more voluminous than the Mimir I use in my home cinema area, which is described as 40hz@-8db. ... so either the Mimir can't reach 40hz at this level or my speaker goes further down... In my opinion, the Mimir is a very, very good speaker for home cinema because it sounds very precise and offers very good vocal reproduction for a 2-way speaker. Dryness and detail are also among the outstanding properties of the Mimir.
... Very rarely, in principle never (but this is only my third DSP project) have I had to make an adjustment above 500hz. Everything sounded well straight away despite the slightly wider baffle that the Digibox 87 FE wants (150mm).
In short, you can say that from top to bottom everything is in the place where it belongs with a 1.7L volume for the sub and a 3.1L volume for the full-range speaker. With a housing size of 337x201x195 including amplifier and DSP, we are very tight here and happy with what comes out of the thing. 3.5mm jack on the side of the pom cover. 5.5/2.5mm hollow plug on the pom cover for power supply + inspection hatch for the DSP for quick and easy adjustment.
Sound description:
Even without a crossover, my first impression was: Chinga de madre… that’s not bad… After final equalization without a crossover, I was disappointed because of the lack of level. Then put in the crossover. Same impression. The thing is loud, but where is the bass? (Sub was off) … The broadband also has to take over the bass range a bit…
Well, but with the crossover and DSP, the result was good as expected. If we now add up everything, that we didn’t have to make any earth-shattering corrections at the top with the DSP and crossover and that the sub, when set up correctly, also works well for such a small part, then you can imagine what the conclusion will be.
It doesn’t add anything, you don’t miss anything at the top and the result is really good. It is slightly lacking in deep bass. The full-range speaker doesn't drum as hard (which I find extremely appealing) as the Picolino 3 with its Scanpeak 10F-8414G10, but it doesn't have quite as fine a resolution, which isn't what you'd expect from an 18€ driver. (One reason why this project will be available in large format with the Scanpeak 10F-8414G10, as already announced elsewhere).
The sound is as it should be and even at lower volumes a large stage is created. You can tell that a subwoofer is being used, even if it's only a 3" woofer. The project reproduces the music neatly and precisely. Everything is in its correct place and the playback is relatively dry (not too dry as is the case with the Picolino 3). The level is also well above room volume and sensitive neighbors in the prefab building might ring the doorbell. It's also nice to hear the non-annoying hissing sound of the full-range speaker or strange frequencies caused by the use of flangers in tracks, which I find positively unusual. Not all speakers I have owned could do that, even though the drivers cost many times more than the Visaton SL87 FE. You could say: crossover well constructed, Mr. Timmermann
If I had to summarize it briefly. The box has no outstanding weaknesses for this size, but it does have a nice neutrality. If the highs were a bit softer like the LIA AMTs, it would be my perfect box for this size, even if it lacks a bit in terms of level and depth. External sub support is always possible... ... in an emergency, but that is not necessary for my use. For everyday use, the box can handle any situation. Both at the top and bottom, and in terms of level. Really an absolute recommendation for the price level and size. It should be clear that an 18€ broadband speaker cannot do the job as a 680€ AMT, especially if it also has to work at the bottom....
You don't really need more speakers and, above all, more financial investment in hardware for these tasks. Overall, I like it better than the Bluetooth speaker V1, which is quieter but can go deeper and has a little more resolution at the top. The overall picture is simply better than a 2-way speaker because it has a point sound source and no crossover frequencies. I also like it better than my Bluetooth speaker V2, which I'm taking out again for this project and neutering a little more at the bottom than it currently has. Version 3 clearly shows that a 4" coax has to be able to do more in the V2 than it does now. Simply filter more at the bottom and let the sub do more work.
I also have to break some bread with Lautsprechershop.de. The kits are available for a very, very long time. Drivers as well. The guys also offer crossover parts and the support is really good. I actually wanted to stop by BPA and use one of their highly praised broadband speakers. However, the drivers are changed every 3-4 years. For my projects, I not only need great offers, which BPA also provides, but also continuity/long-term availability. However, I find that more easily at Lautsprechershop.de, in addition to the really immense selection. There really is something for everyone. Acoustic Design is certainly also a good place to go for speakers. But the technical data and the scope of delivery of the kits are completely missing from the descriptions. I simply need that to choose a kit. So everything depends on Lautsprechershop.de
But that is just my personal opinion. Even if Lautsprechershop once sponsored a passive membrane for €20, it doesn't make this shop any more attractive to me. They are just good. This time the project was not financed by third parties but was carried out alone and there is no economic cooperation with Lautsprechershop.de. I don't want another troll to come along and spam the thread with it.
If we want to make an unfair comparison between the Sony Bluetooth speakers and the Marshall Bluetooth speakers, it should be noted that the Sonys are quite thick at the bottom and hardly deliver any level and quickly distort. The Marshalls are loud but nothing happens at the bottom and the top often becomes muddy. The JPL extreme 4 sounds quite good and has a good level but it's a bit lacking at the bottom even though it's a bit smaller than my homegrown product and costs more (almost €300). I haven't heard the much more expensive JBL Boombox 3 yet, but it's bigger and extremely expensive at €500.
I paid €70 for the broadband project30€ leather
30€ passive membrane
50€ woofer
10€ MDF
50€ Ebony Fineline
10€ glue
15€ amplifier
40€ DSP
20€ pom cover
325€ and around 100€ of that to look chic for leather, Ebony Fineline and a pom cover that you can print much cheaper. It also works with raw MDF and a pot of paint + roller for around 20€. Considering what you can buy, what would be possible in terms of design (if you are not as inept at design as I am) and what comes out of it from top to bottom, the price is damn good. The size is not exactly mobile but the woofer has proven that it can do a lot of ballet even in 1.1L. See Bluetooth speaker V1. With this combination, good results are also possible with 35% less volume, which means we are already moving towards large mobile speakers. Anyway: The side walls took around 48 hours to mill lol.
For a real hi-fi experience, you obviously need more. Either an 8-12" woofer with a 2-way and 6" TMT or something big as a floor-standing speaker. You can find something really audiophile-worthy for under €500/piece (passive without DSP) but it's also pretty demanding. I'm sticking with it. For everyday use, cheap speakers up to ~ €150/box (passive without DSP, self-built, pure hi-fi costs) are more than sufficient. If you want it to be really good, just add another €500-600. Everything in between hasn't convinced me in terms of price-performance so far. Since I'm well equipped with the LIA AMT, there will only be "cheap projects" that could be a bit more expensive because of real wood and leather as well as DSP.
Up to around €500, you only replace inadequacies with cheaper speakers. There is always something to complain about. With more investment, there is no longer any. That does not mean that €100 home-made speakers are no good. But as already mentioned, you cannot expect a €100 project to deliver high-end sound to your ears. Either there is a lack of fine resolution, or there is a hissing noise, the parts are too big, not enough comes out at the bottom, there is a lack of level, or or or... For €500, you get everything within the limits of physics.
A €100 home-made speaker with DSP is more powerful than a €400 speaker without DSP. Anyway. The Lia AMTS run without DSP. They don't need it. They are really great pieces and not bitchy in the setup like a Duetta, which can also do outstanding things. So if you ask me, buy a solid kit for around €100-150/piece and pay attention to the fine detail, put a DSP behind it and put a 6-12" sub underneath, the driver of which doesn't have to cost €400. I bought my Wavecore SW270W01 10 years ago for €130. It costs twice as much today and really packs a punch.
An Omnes Audio SW6.01 only costs €35 and does an excellent job. The SW 8.01 (€46) is already available with 36mm walnut. I expect a lot from it. When I look at my Dayton Audio RSS315HF4 and what it pushes out of 70l, I don't really like it much better than the small SW6.01 in 14l, except that the big thing pushes out a lot more volume, which I don't need in my 25sqm living room anyway. The €400 Hypex DS4 active module on the large sub basically did nothing different than the cheap Monacor Sam 300D for significantly less than half the financial investment that is operated on my Wavecore SW270WA01. Guys, don't throw your money out the window. I also think the more expensive things in the mid-range are good. But not much better than the cheaper price segment. Especially in the subwoofer area and with DSP, you can get a lot out of it and remove the stumbling blocks of a more expensive stereo pair.
I hope you liked the report. Give it a thumbs up if this forum allows it.
PS: Wood still needs to be oiled and aluminum could still be anodized...