Copper Shims on Chipset

[mclaren85]

Hello guys,

First of all, I know both the forum and the tech industry knows better than me, however I couldn't get over my obsession and decided to mod my x570s chipset in order to gain more efficient cooling.
My mainboard is MSI meg ace max with passive chipset cooling. With PBO enabled, it easily reaches up to 65 degree of celcius during summer times. I've tried many many thermal pads without any difference.
Well I decided taking a bold step now. I'm contemplating a chip-copper shim-heatsink design with only a minimum amount of conductive thermal grease. When I contacted MSI they say the thickness of the thermal pad should be 1mm of thickness. So should I choose the exact thickness of the shim, or is there a risk for fracture on the silicon chip when I tighten the screws? At first, I tried only thermal grease between the heatsink and the chip itself, by over-tighten the screw, however the two surfaces hardly contact so dissipation was nowhere near as it should be.
Please keep in mind that GPU also covers the entire chipset.

Thank you and have a wonderful day!

Here are some photos about my motherboard:

 

[Bill_Bright]

with only a minimum amount of conductive thermal grease.

I don't understand this statement because it makes no sense. The purpose of TIM (thermal interface material ) it to fill the microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces to push out and prevent any insulating air from getting trapped between the device and its heatsink. Any excess is in the way and counterproductive to the process of an efficient transfer of heat.

The point is, you should ALWAYS use the minimum amount needed to ensure complete coverage without having any extra there to hinder the heat transfer process.

Remember, the absolute best transfer of heat occurs with direct metal to metal contact of the mating surfaces.

I couldn't get over my obsession

Well you need to. 65°C is pretty warm but by no means "hot".

Judging by your many threads seeking help, I am afraid you are your own worst enemy. That is NOT a criticism - just an observation.

 

[mclaren85]

I don't understand this statement because it makes no sense.

Well I meant the copper shim should be so thick that there is only a very small amount of space for thermal grease to fill up.

Btw, thank you very much, when I cry for help, you are the one who responds first.

 

[LabRat 891]

As long as you don't he-man the screws, even the wrong shim thickness wouldn't be catastrophic.
I'm speaking from experience in shimming an old BGA AMD APU in an Asus laptop.
It was a pre-1982 US penny ($0.01 coin); filed until neither face nor rear could be felt or seen, that's it. <- I don't recommend this, unless you want to properly hand-file a favorable-alloy and size coin to the correct thickness. A hand file and calipers are all that would be needed (beyond the copper-alloy or silver-alloy coin).

It is pretty well-proven that a metal shim and minimal paste/pads/putty are 'the best, easy' thermal-bond for BGA chips. A shim is basically just a DIY IHS

 

[tabascosauz]

You can try all the tricks in the book, but honestly even the passive X570S heatsinks do not have enough surface area to be good for cooling. On the ACE MAX it's just one large flat slab, so if you wanted to compensate with airflow you would have to ensure a lot of air moving over the entire thing. If you had something with dense fins combined with a lot of active direct airflow it could help (see Gigabyte VRM heatsinks design for X570/B550 Aorus Elite and Master), but that would be hard to design without running into height clearance problems. Being necessarily covered by a 300W GPU doesn't help either.

Have you tried Honeywell PTM7950? Works excellently for laptop CPU/GPU dies, where consumer thermal paste often does not have enough thickness for good contact.

 

[LabRat 891]

You can try all the tricks in the book, but honestly even the passive X570S heatsinks do not have enough surface area to be good for cooling. On the ACE MAX it's just one large flat slab, so if you wanted to compensate with airflow you would have to ensure a lot of air moving over the entire thing. If you had something with dense fins combined with a lot of active direct airflow it could help (see Gigabyte VRM heatsinks design for X570/B550 Aorus Elite and Master), but that would be hard to design without running into height clearance problems. Being necessarily covered by a 300W GPU doesn't help either.

I'm curious as to the mounting pattern and pitch for the X570/X570S (at least on his board, if vendor-specific).
There are quite a few oldskool chipset coolers floating around eBay, and it's not improbable for an end-user to modify a single-slot GPU cooler or 1U ULP CPU heatsink to fit.

 

[tabascosauz]

I'm curious as to the mounting pattern and pitch for the X570/X570S (at least on his board, if vendor-specific).
There are quite a few oldskool chipset coolers floating around eBay, and it's not improbable for an end-user to modify a single-slot GPU cooler or 1U ULP CPU heatsink to fit.

Considering that a non-waterblocked 3080 or any mid-high end GPU will always interfere with clearance above the X570 PCH on any ATX or mATX board without exceptions, doesn't seem like a fruitful endeavour.

AMD X570 cooler: Will 4 heatsinks beat a VRAM fan? - HWCooling.net

Description and test resultsThe hated fans in the AMD X570 chipset cooler would rather be turned into a proper heatsink by many users. In reality, however, it is not as easy as it may seem. Why don’t manufacturers do it on their own? We tested different speed modes with a fan and compared them...

www.hwcooling.net

Methods traditionally used to cool a chipset don't work great on a PCH as large as X570, that doesn't have a heatspreader, and draws double digit power all the time.

I'm trying to be nice to him here, but this isn't the first thread OP has freaked out over seeing just 65C on X570. Not sure what remains to be said about the chipset thing at this point. Mine idles at about 60C in the summer, as do most people's boards.

 

[LabRat 891]

Methods traditionally used to cool a chipset don't work great on a PCH as large as X570, that doesn't have a heatspreader, and draws double digit power all the time.

I'm trying to be nice to him here, but this isn't the first thread OP has freaked out over seeing just 65C on X570. Not sure what remains to be said about the chipset thing at this point. Mine idles at about 60C in the summer, as do most people's boards.

Even to a poor 'sink' any improvement in thermal bond, typically does help. (and a shim, basically *is* an add-on IHS.) A "Mad Lad" could even use a copper/silver shim and LM TIM to bond the die-shim, and use paste for the heatsink-shim interface. -properly 'masked' with Lacquer and/or Kapton tape
Looking @ his pics, it looks like his bottom front-intake fan blows RIGHT by it.

You have a point on the GPU's radiated heat, though.
Not at all impossible that sanding the black off the 'face' and even polishing it would improve radiation-rejection.
The fan blowing air by it, will compensate in excess vs. whatever minimal radiative-improvement came from the black-sapphire coating.
Additionally(/instead of), one could use some allotropic carbon adhesive thermal-spreader (meant for M.2s and Mobile Devices). If applied to the bottom of the 'flat slab' and using a paste/pad/putty, it will markedly improve how quickly and thoroughly heat is spread to the full thermal-mass of the slab. (Warning: misusing the thermal-spreading tape this way is probably a consumable/single-application use. Alcohol and rough dry-wiping destroys the allotropic carbon layered on the copper foil/adhesive-substrate.)

65C is well-cool enough IMO too. TBQH, I can't remember the last time I looked at my X570's temps, and I never hear the fan over any other.
I do understand the frustration with his mis-guided efforts but, as long as nothing gets broken (that can't be fixed/replaced), I will always encourage the pursuit of performance (and 'internalized' knowledge of "what does what")
Esp. when it comes to thermal-transfer. I mean... c'mon: Our largest sensing-organ is LOADED with IR-sensitive receptors; we're supposed to know )


Edit:
Search Terms for the thermal spreading stuff I'm talking about:
"Pyrolytic Graphite"
"Synthetic Graphite"
"Graphene"
My preference is for the conductive-adhesive-backed copper foil with the face coated with the special carbon.
Beware! The adhesive is both thermally and electrically conductive; a 16GB Optane M10 has died by my (original) improper assumptions.

If interested, I'd be happy to link to the listing I purchased my last two 'buys' from. I normally do not like 'importing via eBay' but they were the most rea$onable, and their material works well, so *shrug*
They might even ship to Turkey; copy-paste the listing ID# into a listing's URL off your own country's eBay. Often, you can at least SEE the item, and sometimes even contact/order.

 

[mclaren85]

Have you tried Honeywell PTM7950

I would love to try both Honeywell and Fujipoly if I could find it in my country.

 

[LabRat 891]

Have you tried Honeywell PTM7950? Works excellently for laptop CPU/GPU dies, where consumer thermal paste often does not have enough thickness for good contact.

Isn't PTM7950 the putty that got EoL'd and the 'official replacement' is vastly inferior, and 'the step up' is better than PTM7950, but like 10-30x the cost?
^just going from memory, when I was researching modern TIM options and techniques a yr+ ago for my Steam Deck.
I think I was looking to 'outdo' Valve's engineers for their TIM choices. Wasn't worth the risk, YET.

I would love to try both Honeywell and Fujipoly if I could find it in my country.

I was gonna suggest your country's eBay, but... yeah

https://ahvalnews.com/ebay/ebay-shuts-business-turkey-citing-competitive-dynamics

eBay left your country last year, it looks like.

 

[mclaren85]

Edit:
Search Terms for the thermal spreading stuff I'm talking about:
"Pyrolytic Graphite"
"Synthetic Graphite"
"Graphene"
My preference is for the conductive-adhesive-backed copper foil with the face coated with the special carbon.
Beware! The adhesive is both thermally and electrically conductive; a 16GB Optane M10 has died by my (original) improper assumptions.

That's a great list! the question is now is how to get from a reputable seller

And this is the contact area of HS:

I totally believe everyone here, the temps are fine, I'm cool with that. I just wanted to make better if I can, that's all.

 

[LabRat 891]

That's a great list! the question is now is how to get from a reputable seller

And this is the contact area of HS:

View attachment 303140

I totally believe everyone here, the temps are fine, I'm cool with that. I just wanted to make better if I can, that's all.

What 'online bazaars/seller marketplaces *are* online in Turkey? Even though you don't have access to eBay, maybe you can find something similar to what I purchased and have used (or the TIM you've been looking for).
2x Nano-carbon copper copper-based graphene heat-dissipating film for notebook

Not a whole heckova-lot of contact area that's flat, huh?
(Just realized there's a plastic cover over where a fan could've been installed too. Hilarious.../s)

Me, personally, (with your motivations in mind):
I'd probably "go hog wild" and try to adhere and precisely cut a whole sheet of the stuff onto the bottom, and SHOVE the heat-spreader into the fins. <-be advised, I've not always had the best ideas. Both Sides of the thermal spreader stuff is conductive; if it comes loose, the excess crinkled stuff might short an SMD on the mobo.

 

[tabascosauz]

Isn't PTM7950 the putty that got EoL'd and the 'official replacement' is vastly inferior, and 'the step up' is better than PTM7950, but like 10-30x the cost?
^just going from memory, when I was researching modern TIM options and techniques a yr+ ago for my Steam Deck.
I think I was looking to 'outdo' Valve's engineers for their TIM choices. Wasn't worth the risk, YET.

I was gonna suggest your country's eBay, but... yeah

https://ahvalnews.com/ebay/ebay-shuts-business-turkey-citing-competitive-dynamics

eBay left your country last year, it looks like.

PTM7950 is the phase-change pad/paste that you cut to size, looks like a pad when you're looking at it and turns into paste under heat load and back again. I haven't heard anything about EOL, only that there are certain suppliers that sell a better version than others (don't remember the exact website, but it was in the LTT video and also mentioned elsewhere on the G14 subreddit).

It's good enough to provide comparable performance to the stock liquid metal on the G14 so it's definitely not anemic. In combination with K5 Pro (which is more putty-like) smeared on VRMs, PTM7950 is kinda the go-to recommendation these days for re-pasting laptops the right way.

 

[LabRat 891]

PTM7950 is the phase-change pad/paste that you cut to size, looks like a pad when you're looking at it and turns into paste under heat load and back again. I haven't heard anything about EOL, only that there are certain suppliers that sell a better version than others (don't remember the exact website, but it was in the LTT video and also mentioned elsewhere on the G14 subreddit).

It's good enough to provide comparable performance to the stock liquid metal on the G14 so it's definitely not anemic. In combination with K5 Pro (which is more putty-like) smeared on VRMs, PTM7950 is kinda the go-to recommendation these days for re-pasting laptops the right way.

Yup, I mixed up the pad with the putty I ran across in research.
(A quick search would've prevented that; I know better )

Those phase-change TIMs are very neat, and seem to address the problems of 'weeping' and 'thermal migration' well.

 

[mclaren85]

What 'online bazaars/seller marketplaces *are* online in Turkey? Even though you don't have access to eBay, maybe you can find something similar to what I purchased and have used (or the TIM you've been looking for).
2x Nano-carbon copper copper-based graphene heat-dissipating film for notebook

Not a whole heckova-lot of contact area that's flat, huh?
(Just realized there's a plastic cover over where a fan could've been installed too. Hilarious.../s)

Me, personally, (with your motivations in mind):
I'd probably "go hog wild" and try to adhere and precisely cut a whole sheet of the stuff onto the bottom, and SHOVE the heat-spreader into the fins. <-be advised, I've not always had the best ideas. Both Sides of the thermal spreader stuff is conductive; if it comes loose, the excess crinkled stuff might short an SMD on the mobo.

Amazon, Alibaba and AliExpress are way to go
Btw that hole in the HS is for RGB illumination. Not a forward thinking enginering solution from Msi
Actually if I had enough room, I would put a small but high rpm fan on it. Maybe I should place the GPU vertically first..

 

[LabRat 891]

Maybe I should place the GPU vertically first..

If that was already an option, that would be the simplest and 'easiest' solution to
"Moar-Cools for Chipset, plox"

Just... either pay pedantic-attention to listings, or buy a highly-reputable riser. Especially, if you're on a Gen4 GPU too.
My mini-rant/overview on Risers:

Now that we are on PCIe 5 could we actually use the 2nd PCIe slot as the GPU?

If we are getting the actual narrative that bandwidth is doubled with each generation. Is there a scenario where those boards that are wired as Pcie 5 with 4 lanes be strong enough to drive the DGPU? I am only asking because I know you can get a M2 to PCIe adapter but would video work with that...

www.techpowerup.com

Edit:
Here's at least a 'for M.2, pre-cut' example of the material I was talking about, and on Amazon.com.tr

https://www.amazon.com.tr/Bak%C4%B1r-Grafen-So%C4%9Futucu-Kurulum-Pratik/dp/B0C2K74V5G/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_tr_TR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2X1NNJFOU1IKH&keywords=copper%2Bgraphene%2BM.2&qid=1688258301&sprefix=copper%2Bgraphene%2Bm%2B%2Caps%2C236&sr=8-2&th=1

I do not know your relative-value for your currency, nor the 'marketing-differences' in terms / buzz-/key-words used but:
I'll often use the wrong listing for something I'm looking for as a "search term 'springboard'". (ie, Using keywords from the listing to find the item I want at a price I find acceptable)

 

[R0H1T]

If I hadn't known any better I would say this was almost like my case, so many loose cables

Assuming these are recent pics I'd also upgrade the CPU cooler, you can get much better temps on the CPU & consequently motherboard.

 

[LabRat 891]

If I hadn't known any better I would say this was almost like my case, so many loose cables

I recently had to swap back to my 3600 in my Tuf X570-plus; used the opportunity as an excuse to change cases to the Fractal Design Focus G White I'd bought 2years prior.

Spent all day carefully, cleaning and inspecting parts, replacing fans, running wiring, then got tired-out. (there may have been some legal inebriants involved, towards the end of the rebuild)
When I got to the final cards being installed and plugged into power, I just said 'fuggit!' and left the wires wherever they'd stay put.
'She definitely runs cooler and quieter now, though. So, worth the (3/4-arsed) effort

Assuming these are recent pics I'd also upgrade the CPU cooler, you can get much better temps on the CPU & consequently motherboard.

Agreed.
Also, the direction of airflow to/from into/out-of the CPU HSF can influence VRM and mobo temps.
I finally gave into positive-pressure gang and put the rear 12cm fan (normally exhaust) as intake, and its helped quite a bit. (my case has dual 14cm exhaust fans in the top, dual 14cm intake in front)

 

[Bill_Bright]

I meant the copper shim should be so thick that there is only a very small amount of space for thermal grease to fill up.

To be clear, there should not be any space left to "fill up". So as you correctly allude to, the shim should be thick enough to insure there is no gap left. Then the amount of TIM required would be just enough to fill the microscopic pits and valleys in mating surfaces - microscopic "imperfections" in those surfaces due to Mankind being unable to create perfection 100% of the time.

If there is still a large gap, then a proper pad, as suggested above, may be required. But again, the must efficient transfer of heat would be via direct metal-to-metal contact. If that cannot be between the device's IHS and the heatsink, then if me, I would want a pure copper shim, if possible, instead of a thermal pad.

 

[mclaren85]

I recently had to swap back to my 3600 in my Tuf X570-plus; used the opportunity as an excuse to change cases to the Fractal Design Focus G White I'd bought 2years prior.

Spent all day carefully, cleaning and inspecting parts, replacing fans, running wiring, then got tired-out. (there may have been some legal inebriants involved, towards the end of the rebuild)
When I got to the final cards being installed and plugged into power, I just said 'fuggit!' and left the wires wherever they'd stay put.
'She definitely runs cooler and quieter now, though. So, worth the (3/4-arsed) effort



Agreed.
Also, the direction of airflow to/from into/out-of the CPU HSF can influence VRM and mobo temps.
I finally gave into positive-pressure gang and put the rear 12cm fan (normally exhaust) as intake, and its helped quite a bit. (my case has dual 14cm exhaust fans in the top, dual 14cm intake in front)

After placing the GPU vertically, there should be still need an appropriate fan for the chipset. I think this small Noctua fan will work. But the question now is, how to attach it directly to HS? After figuring out this last problem, my problem will resolve for good

 

[kapone32]

After placing the GPU vertically, there should be still need an appropriate fan for the chipset. I think this small Noctua fan will work. But the question now is, how to attach it directly to HS? After figuring out this last problem, my problem will resolve for good

View attachment 303277

View attachment 303278

You must be reading my mind. That is exactly what I did. For me that was the only way to get better temps on the chipset.

After placing the GPU vertically, there should be still need an appropriate fan for the chipset. I think this small Noctua fan will work. But the question now is, how to attach it directly to HS? After figuring out this last problem, my problem will resolve for good

View attachment 303277

View attachment 303278

I bought some sticky pads and put the the pad over the Noctua symbol and right in the middle of the heatsink

 

[P4-630]

But the question now is, how to attach it directly to HS?

I have used VHB tape to stick fans on anything.

 

[mclaren85]

You must be reading my mind. That is exactly what I did. For me that was the only way to get better temps on the chipset.


I bought some sticky pads and put the the pad over the Noctua symbol and right in the middle of the heatsink

Thank you for your support!
Another option is "Z" shaped metal. One end is to be attached on the case the other end is to be on the fan. Since the weight of the fan is very low, only one screw would be enough.

 

[P4-630]

Thank you for your support!
Another option is "Z" shaped metal. One end is to be attached on the case the other end is to be on the fan. Since the weight of the fan is very low, only one screw would be enough.

View attachment 303283

Why use screws when you can do it simply with 3m VHB, that fan doesn't weigh anything...

 

[INSTG8R]

I haven't considered doing anything with my X570S chipset. Mine usually stays under 60 tho I have seen it there. compared to my previous GB Aorus Pro with a fan it use to hit 61C which drove me nuts being the next hottest temp after my GPU.
I am curious as to what it there stock? I am assuming it's a thermal pad. If so I don't think it's worth the effort and if you say 1mm that's just too much to use just TIM,
@Bill_Bright I wouldn't mind you weighing in on this.
To me my X570S is much "cooler" than my previously fan cooled X570. The question really is as is the OPs can it be improved at all. I am all about making things cooler where possible IF it's actually worth the effort/change