external nvme sn 580 vs sn 770?

[Ico]

Hi,

my amazon basket is siting for over a week now and i might lose some very good discounts.
I had 1 tb sn 770 but it got depleted the first time and now too.
sn 580 seems to be okay. At first sn580 was 2 eur cheaper and now is 4 euros with the price dropping and sn770 increasing.
The difference isn't large so i wonder is it market correction or is there another qlc shenanigans or budget controllers installed so they can get rid of that batch.

I need just 10 gbps as that is what is the bottleneck and as much as i would like to get some cheapo
enclosure i got sabrent as i saw they are practically the only budget enclosure that has adequate heatsink and is without a screw present.
I do not suffer for performance so much, but i would like the quality phison to pair with the enclosure rtl9210b.
I will need it as an external case to run some performant tasks and i need the continuous stability.
I also don't want it to be too hot even with the enclosure for saftey and also because my cats cant be trained not to jump on my work table.

I am looking at reviews for so long trying to decide the ideal thing and i am mostly worried about the temps.

I really hope that even if i run some more intensive databases i can get nowhere near the benchmark tests and that using the enclosure i wouldnt go over 40 or 50 C at best.

My common sense tells me they are both there for the not benchmark user and i should go for the one that is the cheapest.
I also plan too install it in my motherboard year or so later when im done with it on my portable pc. And i do not like the almost 40 C degree temps of the blue compared to the black.

Does anyone have some real experince with the drives, the reviews are hard to come by as not many use nvmes until Direct Storage comes.

 

[Wirko]

Hi,

my amazon basket is siting for over a week now and i might lose some very good discounts.
I had 1 tb sn 770 but it got depleted the first time and now too.
sn 580 seems to be okay. At first sn580 was 2 eur cheaper and now is 4 euros with the price dropping and sn770 increasing.
The difference isn't large so i wonder is it market correction or is there another qlc shenanigans or budget controllers installed so they can get rid of that batch.

I need just 10 gbps as that is what is the bottleneck and as much as i would like to get some cheapo
enclosure i got sabrent as i saw they are practically the only budget enclosure that has adequate heatsink and is without a screw present.
I do not suffer for performance so much, but i would like the quality phison to pair with the enclosure rtl9210b.
I will need it as an external case to run some performant tasks and i need the continuous stability.
I also don't want it to be too hot even with the enclosure for saftey and also because my cats cant be trained not to jump on my work table.

I am looking at reviews for so long trying to decide the ideal thing and i am mostly worried about the temps.

I really hope that even if i run some more intensive databases i can get nowhere near the benchmark tests and that using the enclosure i wouldnt go over 40 or 50 C at best.

My common sense tells me they are both there for the not benchmark user and i should go for the one that is the cheapest.
I also plan too install it in my motherboard year or so later when im done with it on my portable pc. And i do not like the almost 40 C degree temps of the blue compared to the black.

Does anyone have some real experince with the drives, the reviews are hard to come by as not many use nvmes until Direct Storage comes.

Hm, it's probably above your budget but if you want good performance, something with DRAM would be superior.

USB-connected drives can't use HMB (a small reserved part of PC's system memory), and if they also don't have built-in DRAM, the random write performance suffers. At least that used to be true, but you need to do more research. You said you'd "run some more intensive databases". Does that involve a lot of writing?

Here's one source, you can probably find more detailed explanations:

Do DRAMless SSD's lose HMB when used in USB Enclosures?

This is a common misconception. While onboard DRAM can be used to cache data blocks, its more relevant use-case is to hold the Flash Translation Layer (FTL). This the table that maps ranges of “sectors” as they are presented to the host to the actual NAND packages and blocks they correspond to...

forum.level1techs.com

 

[Hugis]

With the RTL9210B controller your only going to get a max of 1 G/Bs read and writes.


Here i tested my version which uses the RTL 9210B chip with this SSD

10Gb usb c

and usb 5Gb

IMO get any low temp cheaper drive that can max the bus , something like

Kioxia Exceria G2 1 TB Specs

1 TB, TLC, PCIe 3.0 x4, M.2 2280

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Arco]

USB-connected drives can't use HMB

I didn't know that! I still like the drives as long as they can use HMB as the SN770 still does amazing. That is a bit of a turn-off as I was looking forward to making one of my old WD drives into the external storage.

 

[LabRat 891]

IMO, get whatever is affordable and has DRAMcache on-stick. (Even something older/'slower')
No, you won't see huge bandwidth numbers in CDM, etc. However, actual usability will be much better w/ DRAMcache (sub-cachesize transaction latency).

Note: The USB<->NVME bridge *does* add latency but, not enough to invalidate the benefits.
Any improvements in small transaction latency, carries through even 'bottlenecked' by the bridge.

 

[Ico]

Here is the thing i need it for programming, hosting test databases and slight machine learning datasets which i might optimize or train.

I spoke with newmaxx and he said it doesnt matter as i wouldn't even saturate it.
I wanted to go as cheap as possible and get sn550 but right now the newer nvme cost less than older.

I wanted to go for kioxia g2 as indicated by here it does have dram.

SSDs

docs.google.com

However it has an abysmal slc cache. I think slc these days is worth more than dram.
True i don't have hmb(which i learned here and informed on further, thanks wirko and arko) but i believe the slc is basically the hmb i need.

If it is slower half a second here and there in the OSso be it. DRAM is volatile so i probably won't feel the difference. But i think slc is the way to go as i will analyze some databases and datasets for practicing on my mini pc. I also plan to transfer that memory on my motherboard and something tells me wd line is going to be more future proof than exceria. Because of the better controllers, newer memory process, better speeds and some algorithms Wizard himself was amazed by. The biggest requirement outside reliable not dipping speed and heat is the warranty and tbw.

Kioxia and wd both have 5 years which makes them go to my top, kioxia which has older nand is much less resistant.
I can cancel for two days. I ordered wd blue already as i am amazed by the speeds and the generous slc which is basically a mini ssd itself.
I conteplate about cancelling and ordering the wd black, but as i saw wd blue is only hotter on stress tests which makes sense as its inefficiency is making up as the tdp. But after i went digging it seems that the blue can be as 10 degrees cooler than the black in idle and general use.

I think since i am already going with bare minimum and am content with subpar experience that dram map of files will not mean much or that i will even notice it even if i bench.
If i were editing videos and rendering that would be a different story. So far all of the outputs should be predictable and very easy to premap for the newer ssd if i am not mistaken.

Feel free to correct me. I would really like to get the best as i can. So far it seems that wd is the most future proof and will utilize Direct Storage and similar technologies wich relieve the gpu and cpu the best. I also belive since it was made post AI hype that it has some low level instructions to handle algorithms better. Not because they wanted to include it of course but because it is cheaper to mass produce wafers.
I really think it's possible since everyone is suppylying nvidia and openai that some very useful remnants remained.

 

[LabRat 891]

Here is the thing i need it for programming, hosting test databases and slight machine learning datasets which i might optimize or train.

Speaking from experience, if you're going to be heavily-loading a USB-NVME with lots of little operations, it is going to get hot. -the included (NVME adapter) heatsinking may/may not be sufficient all on its own.
The first NVME I killed, was an undercooled SM963, on a NVME adapter+packet switch. How? Running HareBrainedScheme's BattleTech off it (a Unity engine game).

Feel free to correct me. I would really like to get the best as i can. So far it seems that wd is the most future proof and will utilize Direct Storage and similar technologies wich relieve the gpu and cpu the best. I also belive since it was made post AI hype that it has some low level instructions to handle algorithms better. Not because they wanted to include it of course but because it is cheaper to mass produce wafers.
I really think it's possible since everyone is suppylying nvidia and openai that some very useful remnants remained.

Most-all of those mentioned features are going to be truncated-away, obstruficated, or otherwise hindered, over a USB-NVME bridge.
Unless I'm mis-understanding, you should really look into an internal/PCIe-native solution (for what you're looking for, and forward to.)

Perhaps I missed the mention: Is this going to be used w/ a Laptop, or a desktop?
If laptop, is ThunderBolt an option? If desktop, what board (and existing NVME drives) are in use?

 

[Ico]

Speaking from experience, if you're going to be heavily-loading a USB-NVME with lots of little operations, it is going to get hot. -the included (NVME adapter) heatsinking may/may not be sufficient all on its own.
The first NVME I killed, was an undercooled SM963, on a NVME adapter+packet switch. How? Running HareBrainedScheme's BattleTech off it (a Unity engine game).

Most-all of those mentioned features are going to be truncated-away, obstruficated, or otherwise hindered, over a USB-NVME bridge.
Unless I'm mis-understanding, you should really look into an internal/PCIe-native solution (for what you're looking for, and forward to.)

Perhaps I missed the mention: Is this going to be used w/ a Laptop, or a desktop?
If laptop, is ThunderBolt an option? If desktop, what board (and existing NVME drives) are in use?

It is actually a Steam Deck. I know some are gasping right now, but based on what I saw it can pull some serious entry level work.
I will install a corsair mini mp600 inside and the rest is just for databases and fast unloading in the mini when i manipulate storage.

I also decided to have it aside as i think i cannot hold games on the internal storae so i can pull some from the storage when i need.
But really it is just to have the most crucial software inside and the rest outside.

Naturally i'll try to run as much as i can from the mini and use other things from the sd card and hope the external storage suits me.

I really think it would barely work a sweat on my system. And unless Steam Deck 2 comes with some new tech that blows me away i'll get a tower next year and transfer it there. I would honestly prefer not to need to upgrade to a big tower and just use the steam deck to connect to clouds.
I think that is cheaper and faster in the long run.

 

[Wirko]

I didn't know that! I still like the drives as long as they can use HMB as the SN770 still does amazing. That is a bit of a turn-off as I was looking forward to making one of my old WD drives into the external storage.

Apparently there's a way to disable HMB or change its size, you might try that for some testing and benchmarking before you decide to re-use those SSDs as external drives.

Question - Host Buffer Memory - HBM -

So...anyone know what it takes to turn off HBM for one of the new DRAM-less NVME drives...or turn it on if it should be defaulting to off. These seem to be a pretty common feature for the new budget PCIe Gen4 NVME's that are popping up. I've read where it's a good idea to not use it, though...

forums.tomshardware.com

 

[iameatingjam]

Well I haven't used either, but I didn't have a good experience with my sn570.. after its burst speed it slowed to a snails pace, I hear the sn580 is better but to what degree I can't say... I would still probably avoid it unless there's a crazy deal or something.

The experience was much better with my sn850x. I haven't tried the sn770 but from reporting, it sounds quite amazing what it can do without dram... though because of dram, you're still going to suffer somewhat with sustained write if thats important to you.

If I'm reading you correctly, and there's only a few dollars difference, then absolutely go sn770!! I might even check the sn850x first, you never know with that one, sometimes its prices are super high, other times they undercut everything else during flash sales. When I bought mine it was bargain bin pricing. Like $100 usd for 2TB! I didn't even need it, but couldn't pass that up.

 

[Ico]

Well I haven't used either, but I didn't have a good experience with my sn570.. after its burst speed it slowed to a snails pace, I hear the sn580 is better but to what degree I can't say... I would still probably avoid it unless there's a crazy deal or something.

The experience was much better with my sn850x. I haven't tried the sn770 but from reporting, it sounds quite amazing what it can do without dram... though because of dram, you're still going to suffer somewhat with sustained write if thats important to you.

If I'm reading you correctly, and there's only a few dollars difference, then absolutely go sn770!! I might even check the sn850x first, you never know with that one, sometimes its prices are super high, other times they undercut everything else during flash sales. When I bought mine it was bargain bin pricing. Like $100 usd for 2TB! I didn't even need it, but couldn't pass that up.

My main concern is that the sn770 only trails by a couple percent in each wizards test.

I too wanted the black for premium but if the gate ordained so who am I to disprove.

It is worth to note as quick as it comes to Amazon it vanishes and it gets a price increase.

What was the slowdown for you?

 

[iameatingjam]

What was the slowdown for you?

With the sn570? It was pretty bad. Like once 10-15GB or so had been written, speeds fell off a cliff and would write sometimes at less than 1MB/s.

I did a test to compare transfer speeds, and I'm going off memory here but I believe it was about 35GB of random game isos that I duplicated ( so a read+write operation) on each one of my ssds. The sn850x finished in 12 seconds, the Netac nv7000 finished in 16 seconds, and the sn570 finished in 1:27. Only the Silicon Power A60 did worse at 2:17.

This whole ordeal is the reason I don't buy drives without dram anymore.

Though I do think the A580 was supposed to address some of the glaring issues of the 570 ( like the tiny pslc cache) so once again I haven't used it personally and I imagine its at least somewhat of an improvement.

Edit: Clarified times.

 

[Ico]

With the sn570? It was pretty bad. Like once 10-15GB or so had been written, speeds fell off a cliff and would write sometimes at less than 1MB/s.

I did a test to compare transfer speeds, and I'm going off memory here but I believe it was about 35GB of random game isos that I duplicated ( so a read+write operation) on each one of my ssds. The sn850x finished in 12 seconds, the Netac nv7000 finished in 16 seconds, and the sn570 finished in 1:27. Only the Silicon Power A60 did worse at 2:17.

This whole ordeal is the reason I don't buy drives without dram anymore.

Though I do think the A580 was supposed to address some of the glaring issues of the 570 ( like the tiny pslc cache) so once again I haven't used it personally and I imagine its at least somewhat of an improvement.

Edit: Clarified times.

Please look into the review, the 570 behaves according to your specification but newer gen fixes the problem so much so that the blue is actually better than black in a few tests.

 

[iameatingjam]

Please look into the review, the 570 behaves according to your specification but newer gen fixes the problem so much so that the blue is actually better than black in a few tests.

Right which is why I said at the end, that the 580 fixes some of the problems of the 570...????

Though I do think the sn580 was supposed to address some of the glaring issues of the 570 ( like the tiny pslc cache) so once again I haven't used it personally and I imagine its at least somewhat of an improvement

 

[Ico]

Right which is why I said at the end, that the 580 fixes some of the problems of the 570...????

Yes I read that but I thought you were on the fence. Personally I don't even know that I why I hoped people with personal experience could verify.

Don't worry I read all replies carefully I don't like to waste people's time.

 

[Wirko]

It would be very useful if reviewers tested the behaviour of SLC cache when the drive is, say, 80% full. And already a bit fragmented. TPU doesn't do that, Tom's Hardware doesn't either. Does anyone else?

 

[Ico]

It would be very useful if reviewers tested the behaviour of SLC cache when the drive is, say, 80% full. And already a bit fragmented. TPU doesn't do that, Tom's Hardware doesn't either. Does anyone else?

That is my concern.

As it stands it looks like most budget drives lose their ability after a third.

But it is dont Amazon shipped the blue, and probably for the better.
I will only lightly use crystal disk mark and that will be the far end of my benchmarking.