FTC Warns Companies "Void if Removed" stickers are lillegal.

[Ahhzz]

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...y-void-if-removed-stickers-are-flatly-illegal

" The 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act made it illegal for companies to force users to only repair hardware using specific components or via “authorized” resellers. "

 

[Sasqui]

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...y-void-if-removed-stickers-are-flatly-illegal

" The 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act made it illegal for companies to force users to only repair hardware using specific components or via “authorized” resellers. "

Very interesting. I'm sure it's just lip service, with little to no enforcement without class action type coercion. In other words, try to get a company to honor a fix when you've taken a sticker off, and they'll still find a way to deny you. At least a good portion of companies.

 

[Vya Domus]

Warranties in general are a joke , you can get a genuine RMA request denied for whatever reason they can come up with.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

I think I just heard someone from Samsung nervously vomiting.

 

[Ahhzz]

Very interesting. I'm sure it's just lip service, with little to no enforcement without class action type coercion. In other words, try to get a company to honor a fix when you've taken a sticker off, and they'll still find a way to deny you. At least a good portion of companies.

I guess I was more surprised with the current administration's environment trying to remove restrictions on how companies make their money. I honestly expected I had misread the heading when I first saw the story, and thought it had to be that they were warning consumers that those stickers were valid....
Still, maybe it's something they expect to be honored, but I suspect you're probably correct. I know I've had to fight sometimes to get "valid" warranty coverage. Give them any excuse to argue with you, and it's a major undertaking... I usually win, but still....

 

[jboydgolfer]

sadly many companies try to include in there end user agreement, you waive this right ,or they place stipulations in their contracts, which outright are legal by federal law ,at least in the US. Apple has been known (among many others) to be really big on this lawbreaking. if a company ever requires that you have your items serviced by them or something negative happens, that's in contrast to the federal magnuson law. When you think of it like that, it's not hard to come to the realization that many many companies break federal law , the void if remove stickers are related , but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Every consumer (under federal law), is allowed to have their product serviced by anyone they choose ,without reprisal from the manufacturer, or the retailer. Big companies don't like this law, because if they had their way (which they often do),even in spite of the law, they don't only get to earn money off of you buying their products, but now there's a lack of transparency and there's a negative interest for them to cause their items to be shoddy & break earlier than they might have, because now you'll have to have them repair it for you. You can see where this can go very very wrong, if the federal law is not observed.

If you're in the United States you have every right to remove those stickers and to service your own product, the company can ,and may likely still void your warranty, because their banking on the fact that you will not take it to court. You would win if you took it to court, but it would cost you 10 times more than the product cost in the first place ,and this is what the companies are banking on. The way they get around it , is in manufacturing, those stickers are affixed out of country ,under the premise that it's for "global sale", and they will be void in the United States ,but consumers are often held to it just the same ,regardless of whether there in the United States or not. And if you think I'm wrong ,ask 10 people if it's OK to remove those stickers ,and more likely than not ,at least eight will say it's not OK , and even more sad ,probably all 10 will be ignorant of this law that's been in place for the last 45 years to protect the very people who have no clue it exists

 

[Susquehannock]

Sticker on my RX 480 was ignored because core temps were continually rising due to poorly applied TIM.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I wonder if this applies to John Deere's hardware DRM. Every major part is chipped and if the electronic suite finds a part that is unexpected (e.g. user replaced instead of dealer replaced part), the vehicle will refuse to operate. That's "warranty void if removed" taken to the extreme.

 

[jboydgolfer]

Sticker on my RX 480 was ignored because core temps were continually rising due to poorly applied TIM.

When i used to service PC's at a company i worked for, i spoke with a rep, who actually gave me
The honest "those stickers are meaningless in the USA" reply i was pleasantly surprised with his honesty, and he worked for a VERY large company that makes most or rhe 2nd most of prebuilt PC's

I wonder if this applies to John Deere's hardware DRM. Every major part is chipped and if the electronic suite finds a part that is unexpected (e.g. user replaced instead of dealer replaced part), the vehicle will refuse to operate. That's "warranty void if removed" taken to the extreme.

Sadly FTC law trumps the magnusson moss act, so im sure the greasy lawyers figured out a way to trump it

 

[Sasqui]

I wonder if this applies to John Deere's hardware DRM. Every major part is chipped and if the electronic suite finds a part that is unexpected (e.g. user replaced instead of dealer replaced part), the vehicle will refuse to operate. That's "warranty void if removed" taken to the extreme.

That's a good question, in the case of firmware/software controlling a large device like a vehicle or heavy equipment, you truly get into the realm of IP and the agreements not to "reverse engineer" code, so to me it sounds like a separate issue altogether. Removing a sticker is quite different, but there's definitely some gray areas there once you do remove a sticker... so to speak.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Very interesting. I'm sure it's just lip service, with little to no enforcement without class action type coercion. In other words, try to get a company to honor a fix when you've taken a sticker off, and they'll still find a way to deny you. At least a good portion of companies.

Not really. You threaten to report them to your state's attorney general, and they will back down. Or soon be out of business.

A little personal background. I am NOT a lawyer. But I did take several business law courses before starting my own custom PC building business and this is an area discussed in detail.

Note this is nothing new as that act is from 1975. It got a big push by car owner who wanted to change their own oil and filters using oil and filters they did NOT buy from the car dealer.

In defense of the makers, they are often hosed by consumers who think they are smarter than they really are - consumers who open up or disassemble something they have no business getting into, break it worse and try to return it claiming it was already that way. That is fraud, BTW.

The key thing is if there are "user serviceable parts inside", or not. If there are none, those seals are perfectly legal. For example, there are no "user serviceable" parts inside a PC power supply. So those seals are valid. But inside your PC, you have every right to add RAM, add a new drive, or even upgrade your graphics card. And in fact, it is a user responsibility to keep the insides of a computer clean of heat trapping dust. So those seals are not legal there.

There are exceptions. Using a custom PC as an example, if the maker of your computer provides 100% free service for the duration of the warranty, then the seals are legal. That is, if you buy a computer from a local custom builder, and you buy more RAM from Amazon, your builder MUST install it for free, or those seals are illegal. If you decide the 6 months of dust and pet hair are clogging up your CPU heatsink, your builder MUST clean it out for free.

Now let me add, this is for the United States. Most other democratic societies have similar laws and consumer protections. Other countries don't.

 

[Sasqui]

Not really. You threaten to report them to your state's attorney general, and they will back down. Or soon be out of business.

Maybe. That all depends on how busy the SAG is, and if they even care about a $300 video card. Class action would be the real head turner.

 

[Readlight]

Who needs ugly product key stickers, nobody.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That all depends on how busy the SAG is...Class action would be the real head turner.

True, but harder and much more expensive to get going and can take years to settle. And typically, individuals end up with pennies on the dollar as the shysters... err... the lawyers take the lion's share, lining their pockets big time.

And SAGs in every state have dedicated departments headed by Assistant AGs to deal with consumer protection and complaints. I note my state, Nebraska has a nice website where complaints can be filed as seen here. I have used it a couple times - once to file a complaint against Bank of America for a credit card issue. Not only did I get a quick response from the AG office, within 24 hours a BoA representative contacted me too, very apologetically. I got every penny back. And I note BoA doesn't have any locations in Nebraska.

Another time was with a local tree service. That was quickly resolved in my favor too.

Reports about bad business practices are taken seriously by the states because they all want businesses to come to, set up shop and thrive (and generate taxes) in their states.

The point is, we, as consumers have to stand our ground and not put up with unscrupulous business practices.

Who needs ugly product key stickers, nobody.

Not the same thing as "Warranty Void if Removed" stickers - which are the subject of this thread.

 

[trparky]

Warranties in general are a joke , you can get a genuine RMA request denied for whatever reason they can come up with.

And watch what happens when users get either on Facebook or Twitter, a social media storm starts and the next thing you know the company has a PR nightmare on their hands.

 

[the54thvoid]

The only legitimate reason for manufacturers doing this is the concern a user applied fix, using inferior products, may cause damage to the rest of the device.
I guess as well, most GPU coolers have that sticker with the idea some idiot could possibly run a card with no cooler.
Got to see both sides sometimes, how many people do we know through tech forums that don't use paste, forget to plug an inlet (me!), or hard mod and destroy products?

 

[Bill_Bright]

The only legitimate reason for manufacturers doing this is the concern a user applied fix, using inferior products, may cause damage to the rest of the device.

The "only" legitimate reason? Not even!

There are many reasons.

Liability from personal injury is probably the biggest and very valid reason.​

Bad, unwarranted publicity.​

Fraudulent return claims.​

Those are just 3, I could come up with more.

I guess as well, most GPU coolers have that sticker

Most? I don't recall ever seeing one there. Just looked at two MSI and one EVGA card and no stickers there. What's to open?

 

[Vayra86]

Maybe. That all depends on how busy the SAG is, and if they even care about a $300 video card. Class action would be the real head turner.

Nah most companies will take the painless route and give in. If I wave my legal assistance insurance in the air, I always get what I want as long as its reasonable ofcourse. Followed by a sincere apology, too. Its common sense for them really, because giving in also means they may keep a potentially loyal customer.

I've also clearly noticed the past five to seven years that companies get more and more willing to show goodwill. A BIG factor in that is social media, I guess they deserve credit for that.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Its common sense for them really, because giving in also means they may keep a potentially loyal customer.

And, hopefully, those loyal customers will tell all their friends how nicely they were treated.

Word of mouth advertising it critical for any company's (big or small) survival.

 

[the54thvoid]

The "only" legitimate reason? Not even!

There are many reasons.

Liability from personal injury is probably the biggest and very valid reason.​

Bad, unwarranted publicity.​

Fraudulent return claims.​

Those are just 3, I could come up with more.

Most? I don't recall ever seeing one there. Just looked at two MSI and one EVGA card and no stickers there. What's to open?

A lot of GPU's I've owned have had void stickers on the shroud screws. Usually on the mounting bracket of the chip itself.

Google image search it for lots of proof.

 

[Bill_Bright]

A lot of GPU's I've owned have had void stickers on the shroud screws. Usually on the mounting bracket of the chip itself.

Google image search it for lots of proof.

I did not say it did not happen, just that I have not seen it. Just like I don't see any here.

 

[Xzibit]

I did not say it did not happen, just that I have not seen it. Just like I don't see any here.

They are usually in the back or on the screws.

Here is EVGAs on a 1080 FTW

MSI

I've had them on just about every GPU I bought AMD/Nvidia.

 

[Bones]

That's a good question, in the case of firmware/software controlling a large device like a vehicle or heavy equipment, you truly get into the realm of IP and the agreements not to "reverse engineer" code, so to me it sounds like a separate issue altogether. Removing a sticker is quite different, but there's definitely some gray areas there once you do remove a sticker... so to speak.

Related to vehicles and equipment:
Much of this stems from the problem of theft of equipment and reselling the parts, which by the way is a big black market business.

Although it can and does work to an extent you know like I do thieves probrably have a way to work around it already, JD is just using this as an excuse to make you take it back to them for repairs and charge you out the ass for it parts and all and JD is expensive to start with anyway.

I used to work for a dealership years ago (Local Ford dealership) and I can tell you some insane stuff that went down related to such costs. Also realize this has been an issue (In the US at least) for autos over the past decade or so with the companies trying to make it illegal for you to have anyone else work on it, which by letter of the proposed law makes it illegal for even YOU, the owner to do anything to it. The exact proposal over time has been referered to as the "Consumer Protection Act" and this is the excuse used to try and not only force you to be reliant on them for repairs but also as a source of parts too.
Think of all the money to be made if they actually succeed in making it law as they want to. No more trips to Auto Zone for parts, you WILL by law have to buy parts from them and let them do the repairs too equaling one helluva repair and parts bill.... And that's how they'd like it to be.

Either pay them or walk, they don't care.......

 

[eidairaman1]

Related to vehicles and equipment:
Much of this stems from the problem of theft of equipment and reselling the parts, which by the way is a big black market business.

Although it can and does work to an extent you know like I do thieves probrably have a way to work around it already, JD is just using this as an excuse to make you take it back to them for repairs and charge you out the ass for it parts and all and JD is expensive to start with anyway.

I used to work for a dealership years ago (Local Ford dealership) and I can tell you some insane stuff that went down related to such costs. Also realize this has been an issue (In the US at least) for autos over the past decade or so with the companies trying to make it illegal for you to have anyone else work on it, which by letter of the proposed law makes it illegal for even YOU, the owner to do anything to it. The exact proposal over time has been referered to as the "Consumer Protection Act" and this is the excuse used to try and not only force you to be reliant on them for repairs but also as a source of parts too.
Think of all the money to be made if they actually succeed in making it law as they want to. No more trips to Auto Zone for parts, you WILL by law have to buy parts from them and let them do the repairs too equaling one helluva repair and parts bill.... And that's how they'd like it to be.

Either pay them or walk, they don't care.......

I fix my own vehicles, I do the scheduled maintenance too. Dealerships can take a walk. I also know that warranty repairs are subject to refurb parts. I worked in the appliance repair business and would always seem to find a refurb gear case for direct drive Whirlpool Washers (Kenmore 110 Model, Crosby, Kitchenaid, etc) were always defective out of the box (put them in and would do the same exact thing as the broken gear case). I stopped putting them in and would order the customer a brand new one, instead of wasting the customer or my time.

 

[erocker]

Soooo many companies breaking the law. Apple really seems to come to mind especially since they're an American company.