Heavy throtteling with constant EDP OTHER on battery (since upgrade Win10->Win11)

[e-raser]

Hi experts & community,

I am not looking for overclocking or undervolting my system using ThrottleStop. Instead, I need it (and you) as a diagnosis tool for troubleshooting a major isse:

My i7-1185G7 in a less than 2 years old DELL Latitude 7420 2-in-1 convertible is driving me nuts, for many many weeks now:

1) Main issue: When running on battery, the system is close to unusable. Even set to high performance mode (Windows),

• constant "EDP OTHER" is shown for CORE, GPU and RING (flashing red):
  
• maximum PKG Power reaches 10 (to at best 12) W
• fan super silent or off
• cool surface (device does not get hot, max. at roughyl 50 °C)
• clock only reaches ~ 2 to 2.2 GHz, in the end working is awefully painful
• OVERALL so far: feels like it is put in "energy saving" power plan (which it is not -> using high performance setting)
• Interesting: once connected to a power supply (directly or by using a dock), it immediately powers up (PKG Power reaches ~ 45 W when benchmarking). This "power juice" remains for a while (not sure for how long, at best a few minutes to maybe an hour?), even when disconnecting the power supply and running on battery again.

2) Secondary issue: even when connected to a power supply, I see the PL1 for CORE quite often (checked: PL1 in TPL setting: MSR 35, MMIO 14), also the system seems to run into the "PROCHOT 98°C" and "HOT" warning pretty fast once doing some load (maybe normal behavior for the Intel CPUs?). Anyway, the performance on a Dell Dock with 2 external screens (one a 4k scren) is most of the time (meanwhile! it ran pretty fast back with Windows 10!) at best mediocre (in high performance mode, otherwise working is no fun at all) - and the fan noise is freaking annoying.


This behaviour (main isue) clearly started once doing an inplace upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11 in October 2023.
Interestingly, a similar behaviour was discovered already on Windows 10 back in June 2023 once: ultra slow on battery, once connected to a power supply it was "reset" or "solved" - for a long time - until October I thought forever.

I did so many things in the last weeks, summed up I literally spent days on this meanwhile - all those things without a positive effect:

• uninstalled power relevant software (DELL Optimizer, DELL Power Manager etc.)
• installed/updated "Intel Dynamic Tuning driver"
• uninstalled "Intel Dynamic Tuning Manager/Processor Participant/Generic Participant" and all "battery" devices from device manager
• uninstalled "Dell Peripheral manager"
• ran a Windows repair (sfc /scannow, DISM repair etc.)
• BIOS updates
• ran DELL diagnostics on boot
• reset BIOS settings to default
• played a bit (no deep-dive into all the various, pretty complicated settings yet tbh) with ThrottleStop settings (TPL: MMIO settings) - by the way (checked when connected to a power supply right now): energy saving power plan MMIO: PL1 ~10, PL2 60, balanced: PL1 25, PL2 57, high performance: PL1 25, PL2 57
• did a hardware cross-test to rule out if it's a hardware or a software root issue (my SSD in a similar notebook hardware, the SSD of the other similar notebook in my hardware): even it looked promising (my system in the other hardware ran quite fast **according to ThrottleStop* (no EDP other, good PKG Power etc.), on the other hand the other SSD in my hardware ran pretty bad - unfortunately there was no ThrottleStop on the other system to 100 % confirm...)
• switched mainboard to rule out physical issues with the CPU based on the previous hardware cross-test (assumption: it must be hardware related, right?) - did change really nothing, still constant EDP OTHER and max. 10 W PKG power on battery
• checked the whole TechPowerUp forum for similar topics related to "EDP OTHER" (summary: either unsolved or hardware issues or pretty new and not diagnosed yet like https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/edp-flashing-red-across-the-board.318148/ or https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/constant-ring-edp-other-flashing-red.317422/), similar ones or exactly the same symptom description:
  • https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/throttlestop-constant-red-edp-other.272067/post-5028396
  • https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...mited-edp-other-cpu-wont-use-over-10w.316821/
• checked behaviour in Windows safe mode on battery (no difference)
• checked behaviour running from a Live-ISO on battery (no difference, but: no EDP OTHER but red PL2 for CORE)

Open things on the list:

• Clearly track down issue using the ThrottleStop community/experts knowledge
  --> this is where I am currently, as all other steps will take a significant amount of time and/or money and I also need some proof where this issue likely originates from
• replace battery (currently checking with vendor)
• replace heatpipe and fan
• reinstall Windows 11 (worst case scenario as setting up things really takes a lot of time, 2 to 3 days for the most important stuff)
• let this device go (when I need to reinstall, I prefer to do this on a new notebook winning a few years of silence)

---

What do I need to test/provide (screenshots etc.) to help you getting a precise picture of the core issue?
Which component / piece of (shitty) software is in general regulating (in my case on battery: throtteling) the CPU performance?
____-> Part of the BIOS, the OS, an application, a middleware/driver, ...?
____-> Which one could be responsible for this huge loss of performance?
Or a clear hardware issue (unlikely as introduced with the Win 11 upgrade, on the other hand: running in safe mode or from a live ISO or another SSD makes no difference)?

 

[unclewebb]

Post screenshots of the TPL and FIVR windows. Power Limit 4 is one of the current limits. That should be set to 0 in the TPL window to disable this limit.

EDP OTHER

This is usually caused by a current limit that is set too low. Dell laptops typically use an embedded controller (EC) to enforce these limits. ThrottleStop cannot be used to access any of the EC limits.

BIOS updates

The updated BIOS might be using a very low current limit when running on battery power. Some updates like this can happen when going from Windows 10 to Windows 11. Most BIOS updates for laptops can introduce some bizarre and restrictive throttling schemes that are difficult or impossible to solve. You can try to go back to a previous BIOS version but this is not always possible.

I always recommend checking the MMIO Lock box in the TPL window. Some 11th Gen laptops have severe throttling problems when this box is not checked.

The cooling systems of most laptops with 1185G7 processors are inadequate. If you try to run these CPUs at full power, you will either see thermal throttling at 98°C or power limit throttling.

 

[e-raser]

Thank you @unclewebb. I think I already read similar posts, maybe even also written by you

There was no BIOS update around the time the system got inplace-upgraded from Windows 10 to 11. There only were many (okay, exactly 3) BIOS upgrades after that point in time, and no update changed anything, even there's been something power related in the release notes twice (only one found when scanning the release notes right now):

1.32.0 - Fixed the issue where the battery power consumption is high when the system is in Sleep mode.

I always recommend checking the MMIO Lock box in the TPL window. Some 11th Gen laptops have severe throttling problems when this box is not checked.

Will it fix the PL1/Pl2/Time settings? Depending on the situation (do I need full power or do I need silence) I sometimes witch between Windows power modes, usually when running powered/docked.

The cooling system of most laptops with 1185G7 processors are inadequate. If you try to run these CPUs at full power, you will either see thermal throttling at 98°C or power limit throttling.

Definitely right for the 7420. Air flow, only one fan... pretty outdated. Current 7440 line has been improved regarding the thermal design (maybe just compensating the improved 13th gen Intel CPU so not really more power or less noise at the end?), not sure bout the 7430.

---

I did not change anything so far (as I don't understand the precise impact of most settings - so unless you don't assist me here I don't change anything). Here are the requested screenshots:

 

[unclewebb]

Will it fix the PL1/Pl2/Time settings?

Checking the MMIO Lock box will remove the MMIO PL1 14W power limit.

I sometimes switch between Windows power modes

If you want Windows or Dell power management software to be able to control your power limits, checking the MMIO Lock box might not be the solution for you. Try checking the MMIO Lock box and see what happens. If you do not like the results, clear the MMIO Lock box, press OK and reboot your computer to return the MMIO power limits back to normal.

In the TPL window you can try setting Power Limit 4 to a value of 0. If this does not fix your problem, set this limit back to 105.

With no access to the EC power and current limits, and no access to the IccMax current limits, I do not know of any way to fix the problems you are having.

The Dell Latitude line have used a variety of throttling methods for about 15 years. Instead of trying to fix these issues, Dell came up with new throttling methods that ThrottleStop can no longer solve. If your laptop used to run great when using Windows 10, try going back to Windows 10. There might still be problems due to the BIOS updates that were installed.

 

[e-raser]

Try checking the MMIO Lock box and see what happens.

Unfortunately, it changed nothing. Ran a TS benchmark, ticked the box, hit apply. Still max. 10.7 W PKG Power and constant red EDP OTHER for CORE and RING.

In the TPL window you can try setting Power Limit 4 to a value of 0. If this does not fix your problem, set this limit back to 105.

Tested this one too (set "Max 48" - the right column) from 105 to 0, hit apply. Same result: zero difference. Interestingly, now I can not set the left column with currently "0" back to "105"... restart needed?

With no access to the EC power and current limits, and no access to the IccMax current limits, I do not know of any way to fix the problems you are having.

Is this the "current state", so did you see this based on the provided (FIVR) screenshot(s)? Or is this a question?

If your laptop used to run great when using Windows 10, try going back to Windows 10.

Unfortunately, not possible / not an option. And even if it would, the clock is ticking for Win 10 support. There's no way back.

There might still be problems due to the BIOS updates that were installed.

Well there were no BIOS updates which introduced the issue. The issue with all the current symptoms appeared once the upgrade from Win 10 to Win 11 was completed. No BIOS update in the weeks before and after the upgrade.

Currently a bit disappointing... while I really like the multi-quote feature and your quick response here: what else can I try / test / check? Is there a specific setting/value which might be responsible for the core issue (no power/performance, heavy throtteling on battery)?

New battery is on the way, but tbh I doubt it's the root cause and will fix this.

---

Edit: Now that's kind of interesting:

I put the system into standby (not hibernate, just regular standby). After resuming and logging in to Windows, I could see for maybe 2 seconds that the system has been super fast ("regular" fast) on battery, not being throttled:


After 2 seconds it was back to the 10 W limit. Feels like some kind of power controlling software kicks in and starts to throttle the system! From an amateur's view at least.

 

[unclewebb]

Unfortunately, it changed nothing.

I am not surprised. Your computer has set a very low current limit when running on battery power. This is a little different compared to a power limit throttling problem.

Your TPL screenshot shows a yellow lock icon to the left of Power Limit 4. This indicates that the BIOS has locked this current limit. You cannot use ThrottleStop to change a limit that has been locked by the BIOS. Change the request value on the left side from 0 back to 105. This limit was set to 105 and locked to 105 by the BIOS. Requesting anything different will be ignored.

After 2 seconds it was back to the 10 W limit.

Some computers use different power or current limits after you resume from sleep.

what else can I try

ThrottleStop cannot be used to fix the throttling problem that your computer has when running on battery power. The last Dell laptop I owned was about 15+ years ago. I gave up trying to troubleshoot or fix any of Dell's more recent throttling methods.

 

[e-raser]

Your TPL screenshot shows a yellow lock icon to the left of Power Limit 4. This indicates that the BIOS has locked this current limit.

Nope, that's because of my ticking the lock box on the right once before. Can't enter anything in the left box (currently "0").

ThrottleStop cannot be used to fix the throttling problem that your computer has when running on battery power.

OK, a real downer. Because of which locked/unavailable setting?

 

[unclewebb]

which locked/unavailable setting?

Your computer is enforcing a low current limit. This happens whenever you pull the plug and switch to battery power. Manufacturers do this to protect their batteries from being damaged. Dell has probably set this current limit very conservatively. A slow computer will never end up on the evening news. A nasty battery fire would be a much bigger problem for Dell.

Clear the check mark in the Lock box and then shut down your computer. When you start back up, if the yellow lock icon is still visible, Power Limit 4 is locked by the BIOS.

 

[e-raser]

OK I'll give it a try (to get the lock removed for the PL4).
Battery will be swapped next week, we'll see...

 

[e-raser]

After restoring from hibernate:

(looking good, PL4 back to default, no more lock icons)

Of course the initial issue still exists.

 

[e-raser]

After replacing the battery, it SEEMS like the issue is resolved. I will monitor it for a few more days, just to make sure.

At least I've seen a peak CPU PKG power of ~ 40 to 45 W again, the constant red EDP OTHER is gone (only yellow, and red for CORE only very very rarely), clock jumps way over the former 2.x GHz limitation etc.. Absolutely no idea why the former battery seems to start malfunctioning exactly when upgrading Windows 10 to Windows 11... a real mystery.

Anyway, lessons learned:
1) It can be a hardware issue, even if you only changed software (OS in this case).
2) Don't waste that much time by trying stuff, ideally replace hardware components to quickly sort out things.
3) ThrottleStop is an awesome tool for diagnosing performance related stuff. Now a must-have for me. Thank you also for your support here.

 

[physPerson]

I am not a technical user, but I did identify and resolve this problem over the last couple days, so I thought I should post about it, and see if it gives more insight to those who are encountering it and are forced to use Dell Laptops.

I have a Dell laptop Latitude 9520 with an i7-1185G7 processor. A couple months back, I discovered that when my computer had been charging for a long time, it became unusably laggy when on battery, but immediately recovered when plugged back in or partially recovered after some time of usage on battery/hibernate.

I used a combination of Performance in Task Manager in Windows 10 and ThrottleStop to identify the issue as constant EDP Other and PL2 flags. Some fiddling with Throttlestop on the turbo settings in particular partially resolved these issues, but to no major useful benefit. I also tried initially changing all possible (including hidden) windows power management settings in case those were throttling.

In the end, however, I discovered the solution a relatively stupid way. A few months back, there had been a bios +Dell Optimizer update that led to "new features" appearing in Dell Optimizer. Those included a re-enabled "presence detection" set of separate cameras/sensors, which I found creepy, so I disabled all of the features in Dell Optimizer, including the power management settings. However, this surprisingly caused presence detection to reactivate, because what the Dell Optimizer latest version was doing was merely using the activate tab to take back control of hardware from windows and provide its own commands (so I had to "enable" presence sense and then deactivate it in Dell Optimizer).

It turns out, with this CPU + battery combination + latest bios and Dell Optimizer, the CPU enters a horribly optimized highly sensitive thermal and voltage management mode when you are not controlling it with Dell Optimizer. As soon as I re-enabled dell optimizer and allowed it to sync with the windows performance power slider that you access by clicking on the battery icon AFTER Dell Optimizer power control is enabled, I could slide the slider all the way up to "Best performance" and achiever the same score on the Throttlestop benchmark for both battery and adapter (albeit with an always-on fan, which is less severe problem to resolve).

The moral of the story is that after a recent bios update, the hardware in this computer refused to function in a useful way on battery without being controlled by Dell Optimizer. You could change your battery because I clearly also have some old battery thermal/charging issues, or go in and figure out all the broken thermal and voltage settings that become enabled when running it on Windows or some other control, but it seems that a lot of people did not achieve full success using those methods.

I'm happy to provide any additional read-outs or version info if it helps the community.