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With everything wrong with windows the awenser is obvious, laziness
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
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Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
Processor | 7950X, PBO CO -15 |
---|---|
Motherboard | Gigabyte X670 AORUS Elite AX (rev. 1.0) |
Cooling | EVGA CLC 360 w/Arctic P12 PWM PST A-RGB fans |
Memory | 64GB G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB F5-6000J3040G32GA2-TZ5RK |
Video Card(s) | ASUS TUF Gaming GeForce RTX 3070 |
Storage | 970 EVO Plus 2TB x2, 970 EVO 1TB; SATA: 850 EVO 500GB (HDD cache), HDDs: 6TB Seagate, 1TB Samsung |
Display(s) | ASUS 32" 165Hz IPS (VG32AQL1A), ASUS 27" 144Hz TN (MG278Q) |
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow |
Audio Device(s) | Razer BlackShark V2 Pro |
Power Supply | Corsair RM1000x |
Mouse | Logitech M720 |
Keyboard | G.Skill KM780R MX |
Software | Win10 Pro, PrimoCache, VMware Workstation Pro 16 |
He's clearly using % to represent a minimum and maximum Voltage set by battery mfg. Nothing wrong with that.Ummm, sorry, but no. That is not so. A simple multimeter can show if a battery is fully discharged (0%) with 0.0V output or fully charged (at 100%), at full voltage AND no longer taking on a charge (increasing in voltage). So they are not arbitrary at all. This does assume when charging, the correct charging voltage, which is always slightly above the battery's rated voltage output, is being applied.
One common phenomenon with all batteries is the closer they get to being fully charged, the slower the charging rate becomes. That is, a 50% discharged battery can rather quickly be charged to 80%, but take longer to go from 80% to 90% and even longer from 90% to 100%. Some say it is similar to trying to go the speed of light. In theory, we can never go that fast because time goes slower and slower the nearer we get to that speed.
This is exactly why, by the way, battery chargers always output voltages a couple volts higher than the battery's rating. A 12V charger will never fully charge a 12V battery. This is why the alternators in our cars typically output ~13.6 - 14.5V.
The issue with keeping a battery plugged in all the time is about allowing it to sit fully charged, day in and day out for weeks or months at a time.
Generally with laptops and with a good battery, it is impossible for it to fully discharge to 0%. This is due in part because the laptop simply cannot run if the voltage drops too low. That is not a safety factor. It just can't run if the voltage drops too low.
The battery can come close to 0% but the chemical reaction does not completely stop. This is how a low battery will slightly recharge itself on the shelf - the chemical process is still going on.
There are exceptions, of course. Super cold can halt the chemical process. A short in the battery can result in constant drain that will eventually take it to 0.0V. Or a short on the output of a battery can fully discharge the battery (like leaving a flashlight on).
Processor | i5-6600K |
---|---|
Motherboard | Asus Z170A |
Cooling | some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar |
Memory | 16GB DDR4-2400 |
Video Card(s) | IGP |
Storage | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB |
Display(s) | 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200 |
Case | Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh |
Audio Device(s) | E-mu 1212m PCI |
Power Supply | Seasonic G-360 |
Mouse | Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse |
Keyboard | Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994 |
Software | Oldwin |
Yes, this. And sorry @Bill_Bright for overlooking your reply. Those "arbitrary limits" aren't completely arbitrary. However, a notebook manufacturer can calibrate the charge indicator to show zero (and turn off power) at 2.9 volts, or maybe at 2.8 volts. The latter would give the user a slightly longer run time and probably a slightly shorter battery life. And I'm oversimplifying everything anyway, as we know that the voltage alone is a poor measure of the state of charge (also because you can't measure no-load voltage when the notebook is running).He's clearly using % to represent a minimum and maximum Voltage set by battery mfg. Nothing wrong with that.
It's not wrong to blame Microsoft, either. Or rather Microsoft+Intel+AMD. They aren't powerless against HP+Lenovo+Dell when it comes to setting standards. If Intel said, hey everyone, we want a small bit of control over battery charging via our API, or else you're not getting that shiny "Evo" sticker, everyone would listen and obey.It is easy to make Windows the scapegoat and blame Microsoft but once again, battery maintenance is a hardware function and laptop makers have made it clear, each maker wants to do it their way. If that were not true, they all would have agreed upon a PC-type ATX Form Factor standard for laptops many years ago. But they refused to even come together to discuss it, and have repeatedly refused many times since.
The result? Laptops are a proprietary mess that cost consumers more.
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
Huh? Did you note and understand what I was replying to? Sorry but it doesn't appear you did. Or perhaps the definition of the word, "arbitrary" is not fully appreciated.He's clearly using % to represent a minimum and maximum Voltage set by battery mfg. Nothing wrong with that.
Right, they are not arbitrary. Thanks for that.Those "arbitrary limits" aren't completely arbitrary. However, a notebook manufacturer can calibrate the charge indicator to show zero (and turn off power) at 2.9 volts, or maybe at 2.8 volts. The latter would give the user a slightly longer run time and probably a slightly shorter battery life.
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |
Come on! How can you say that with a straight face? It's chemistry! The scientific evidence is abundant. Fully charged and fully discharged are the two most unstable conditions for a lithium ion/polymer/whatever battery. Everybody knows not to charge them too fast, not to discharge them too fast, and do not leave them long-term in a more unstable state when a more stable state is available; otherwise service life is negatively affected. The way that the battery becomes damaged and why it behaves its way is fascinating.There is no scientific evidence, nor a technical reason that a battery would feel better if it's half empty.
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
Huh? Sorry, but nobody knows that because that is not true, or how battery charging even works. Batteries dictate how fast they charge - depending on the maximum capability of the charger.Everybody knows not to charge them too fast
Again, not true or even possible in normal use - that is, ASSUMING the load on that battery is a proper load and not faulty. If the battery was designed to support that laptop and is in good condition, and that laptop is not otherwise damaged such that it presents a faulty load (like a short) on the battery, then it would be impossible to discharge it too fast.not to discharge them too fast
Unstable? I understand what you are getting at, but "unstable" is not the right word. Neither condition suggests or creates an "unstable" condition. Nor does either condition hurt the battery AS LONG AS it does not remain in that state for extended periods of time - as in weeks on end. In fact, most batteries benefit from occasional deep discharge/full charge cycling.Fully charged and fully discharged are the two most unstable conditions for a lithium ion/polymer/whatever battery.
No it isn't. ARF is right. There is no scientific evidence to suggest a battery will feel better at 50% charge. There is some evidence suggesting long term storage at either of the "extreme" states may shorten the lifespan. But again, the point there is about the battery remaining at that extreme state, unused, for weeks on end.The scientific evidence is abundant.
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |
No it isn't. ARF is right. There is no scientific evidence to suggest a battery will feel better at 50% charge.
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
Totally true. Sorry but it is you out in left field and it is you making assumptions.Absolutely false. Well, more like 80%, but whatever.
What a silly statement. Now you are saying misusing, abusing or not using the battery as intended will be detrimental to the battery. Well, no sh!t Sherlock!Take a Li-Ion battery and do what you want with it, with no controller or protection, and you definitely can ruin it
It's not worth my time.
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |
Then you recognize that there is a spectrum. What do you think happens if you charge a battery more or less? Or discharge it more or less? Or charge or discharge it faster or slower? The result on long-term serviceability is affected. It isn't black and white. And companies (Tesla for example, or any number of phone or laptop manufacturers) push the limits of batteries for various sales reasons, and longevity is affected. Without doubt it is affected. Proven. Their are valid situations where a charge limit would be beneficial. Some products more than others; as explained.What a silly statement. Now you are saying misusing, abusing or not using the battery as intended will be detrimental to the battery. Well, no sh!t Sherlock!
The scientific evidence is abundant. Fully charged and fully discharged are the two most unstable conditions for a lithium ion/polymer/whatever battery.
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |
Don't you wish it were that simple? If it were so simple, you wouldn't have to say "say".Fully charged means that the voltage reaches 100% in a certain voltage range, say 3.2 volts to 4.2 volts.
Processor | 7950X, PBO CO -15 |
---|---|
Motherboard | Gigabyte X670 AORUS Elite AX (rev. 1.0) |
Cooling | EVGA CLC 360 w/Arctic P12 PWM PST A-RGB fans |
Memory | 64GB G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB F5-6000J3040G32GA2-TZ5RK |
Video Card(s) | ASUS TUF Gaming GeForce RTX 3070 |
Storage | 970 EVO Plus 2TB x2, 970 EVO 1TB; SATA: 850 EVO 500GB (HDD cache), HDDs: 6TB Seagate, 1TB Samsung |
Display(s) | ASUS 32" 165Hz IPS (VG32AQL1A), ASUS 27" 144Hz TN (MG278Q) |
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow |
Audio Device(s) | Razer BlackShark V2 Pro |
Power Supply | Corsair RM1000x |
Mouse | Logitech M720 |
Keyboard | G.Skill KM780R MX |
Software | Win10 Pro, PrimoCache, VMware Workstation Pro 16 |
I clearly understood what he meant, he confirmed as much in his reply to me. The arbitrary "0%" he referred to is the arbitrary "~75%" you referred to. When he said 0% it was clear to me he was referring to the amount of charge a device would report is remaining, which we can presume device mfgs base partially on battery mfg specs, which are based on battery chemistry. If you took just a little bit of time to understand what other people are referring to, you would have understood this as well.Huh? Did you note and understand what I was replying to? Sorry but it doesn't appear you did. Or perhaps the definition of the word, "arbitrary" is not fully appreciated.
I never said representing charge levels as a percentage was wrong. I said 0% and 100% are not "arbitrary" limits set by the maker.
Definition of arbitrary: Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.
It appears there is a general misunderstanding of how batteries work and how their charge levels are determined. Depending on the battery chemistry, a battery is generally considered "dead" (in need of replacing - or charging if rechargeable and still good) when it can no longer power the device it is intended to power. This varies greatly by the device, but it is generally to be when its voltage drops below ~75% of its rated value. Again that varies greatly so depending on the battery (and load), that could be as high as 90% or as low as 50%.
Take, for example, a 12VDC car battery. Note a brand new, fully charged car battery should be somewhere between 12.2 and 12.6V when the engine is not running. If it reads 11VDC, that battery is not good and may struggle to start the car. If it drops below 10VDC, you probably will just hear a click (if lucky) when you turn the key. And of course, the load matters. A tiny 4-cylindar engine is much easier to turn over than a big 8-cylindar - and why bigger engines come with higher capacity batteries.
As Wirko correctly notes, 0% charge does NOT mean 0.0V. So, for the record, the voltages at 0% charge will be much higher than 0V on a typical laptop battery since these days, the most common voltage used with laptops is ~19VDC.
Right, they are not arbitrary. Thanks for that.
Note a .1V difference between 2.9V and 2.8V (for sure, those are arbitrary numbers you picked) is insignificant. And the runtimes and battery life differences are incalculable. To illustrate, let's use something a little more realistic and assume ~75% charge. Then, using your demonstration and a typical 19V laptop battery, we are looking at 14.25V and 14.35V. That difference is still insignificant and incalculable.
Why?
"IF" a computer presented a constant load on the power supply (in this case, the battery), then, maybe, I repeat, maybe the runtime differences could be determined. But the power demands created by the various components (CPU, GPU, RAM, drives, the display screen, etc.) are constantly changing (1000s or millions of times every second), and therefore, so is the load (and drain) on the battery. I note even the battery's and the ambient (room) temperatures can impact runtimes.
In other words, with a computer there are way too many naturally occurring variables affecting the discharge rate to create a constant, and therefore measurable discharge rate. A computer is nothing like a flashlight or wristwatch that creates a consistent load on its battery.
There is no evidence such a minor difference will extend or decrease the life expectancy of a battery. Other than bouncing a battery off the floor, the typical influences on battery life expectancy of rechargeable batteries are (1) heat - specifically, excessive heat. Cold, even extreme cold generally does not cause permanent damage to a battery UNLESS its case cracks due to the cold. Extreme cold may cause the chemical reaction to slow considerably or even cease. But once temperatures return to normal, the battery typically will too.
(2) Shorting the output. Ohm's Law (I = V/R) says when resistance (R) drops and the voltage(V) remains the same, current(I) MUST go up. Excessive current increases heat. See (1).
(3) A battery can, in rare circumstances "reverse polarity" if it ever reaches 0V. But that is very very rare.
(4) This is controversial and depends on battery chemistry. There are claims that Li-Ion battery life will decrease if they are kept 100% charged 24/7 for weeks and weeks on end.
(5) The number of charge/discharge cycles.
(6) How deep the discharges regularly are.
(7) The normal passage of time.
Note: There are other factors, but those are the main ones I can think right now. And for sure, those factors vary by battery chemistry (Li-Ion, SLA, NiMH, NiCd, etc.).
Clear as mud, right?
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
No it isn't.The arbitrary "0%" he referred to is the arbitrary "~75%" you referred to.
Then you ignored his next reply!I clearly understood what he meant, he confirmed as much in his reply to me.
Yes! "Samsung" understands that and it is important to point out that Samsung is the "hardware" manufacturer of the phone. The "operating system" used on Samsung phones is developed by Android and NOT Samsung.My phone I have limited to 85% as Samsung understands this and offers that in settings.
So, I was wondering why does Microsoft not have this feature
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |
They start out as arbitrary. Once chosen they are no longer arbitrary. But why one value is chosen versus another does often seem arbitrary. We are not in their meetings. All we can do is say 'oof, that was a pretty poorly chosen value' 2 years later when a strong trend forms for a laptop model to have puffed-up batteries breaking keyboards and track pads or needing battery replacements regularly at a certain age."If you took just a little bit of time to" read through the thread "and understand what people" are saying and "referring too", you would have seen where, in his very next post, post #29, @Wirko clarified his comment and acknowledged that the manufacturers did not come to that 0% representative value arbitrarily either. He went on to correctly point out that manufactures set and "calibrate" their monitor circuits to a predetermined (not arbitrarily picked) value.
System Name | Brightworks Systems BWS-6 E-IV |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i5-6600 @ 3.9GHz |
Motherboard | Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 Rev 1.0 |
Cooling | Quality case, 2 x Fractal Design 140mm fans, stock CPU HSF |
Memory | 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3000 Corsair Vengeance |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GEForce GTX 1050Ti 4Gb GDDR5 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD |
Display(s) | Samsung S24E650BW LED x 2 |
Case | Fractal Design Define R4 |
Power Supply | EVGA Supernova 550W G2 Gold |
Mouse | Logitech M190 |
Keyboard | Microsoft Wireless Comfort 5050 |
Software | W10 Pro 64-bit |
That makes no sense at all.They start out as arbitrary. Once chosen they are no longer arbitrary.
Right! And yet you just claimed to know how they start out and supposedly when they no longer are arbitrary.We are not in their meetings.
Of course not! Why would there be? Math is math. If a fully charged battery normally reads12V but now reads 10V, guess what? It is 83.3% charged. How do I know. Math! If it drops to 9V, it is now 75% charged. If 6V, 50%. See how that works? It is not rocket science. It is 5th or maybe 6th grade math.There is no standard voltage value for specific percentages.
"Seem"?? Ah! Now I get it. If ty_ger doesn't understand how the manufacturer came up with a value, they must have just pulled a number arbitrarily out of a hat. Got it.It does seem very arbitrary.
System Name | Z77 Rev. 1 |
---|---|
Processor | Intel Core i7 3770K |
Motherboard | ASRock Z77 Extreme4 |
Cooling | Water Cooling |
Memory | 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX |
Video Card(s) | EVGA GTX 1080 |
Storage | Samsung 850 Pro |
Display(s) | Samsung 28" UE590 UHD |
Case | Silverstone TJ07 |
Audio Device(s) | Onboard |
Power Supply | Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium |
Mouse | EVGA TORQ X10 |
Keyboard | Leopold Tenkeyless |
Software | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit |
Benchmark Scores | 3DMark Time Spy: 7695 |