is this B-die?

[amit_talkin]

Hi, I just ordered G-Skill RIPJAWS V 16GB RAM with following model number.
F4-4000C18D-16GVK
Link to product
http://www.gskill.com/specification/165/184/1562837577/F4-4000C18D-16GVK-Specification

Now I ordered it because it is cheapest RAM over 3600MHZ in my country ( approx $115USD for 16GB ). I searched on google for this specific model but couldnt find much info.Is this b-die? and 18-22-22 good timing on 4000mhz RAM? I currently have 2400mhz vengeance which runs at 3000MHZ 16-15-15 on my Ryzen 3600 system so its definitely an upgrade. But I am excited, if this B-die, then I might have hit jackpot at this price, atleast in my country.

 

[Vycyous]

Is this b-die?

Most likely, although it may be a slightly lower bin of the really good Samsung B-die ICs. Its first word CAS latency calculates to be 9 nanoseconds, compared to something like DDR4-3200 CL14 which is 8.75 nanoseconds. It's also not running "flat" timings, which is increasingly difficult at higher speeds. With the right CPU and motherboard, it might do something like 4133 MT/s 17-17-17-37 @ 1.45-1.5V or even better.

The really good stuff will have a calculated first word CAS latency of ≤8 nanoseconds, something like DDR4-4500 CL18 or even lower (≤7.5 nanoseconds, like DDR4-4800 CL18). Of course, those fast, low latency kits can be very expensive and the law of diminishing returns means they're usually not worth it. Plus, you can often quite easily overclock a "lesser" memory kit to match the performance of one 2 or 3+ times the price.

Edit: Since you're running it with a Ryzen 5 3600, you'll want to keep the speed at 3800 MT/s or lower. With a decent motherboard, that kit should easily do something like 3600 MT/s 14-14-14-34 @ 1.4-1.45V or maybe push it to 3733-3800 MT/s 15-15-15-35 @ 1.45-1.5V if you're lucky. The 3600 MT/s CL14 should definitely be possible (and is technically faster than 3733-3800 MT/s CL15) and will perform exceptionally well (except for write speeds since AMD made some sacrifices for 3rd gen Ryzen processors with just one CCX/chiplet).

 

[Lorec]

According to Samsung Bdie finder:

B-Die Finder

Find Samsung B-Die DDR 4 memory kits on Amazon, Newegg and many more.

benzhaomin.github.io

These are not Samsung Bdies.
Anyhow for 3000 series ryzen it's not necessary as long as You can pull off 3800mhz cl16? (i dont remember exactly)

 

[amit_talkin]

Most likely, although it may be a slightly lower bin of the really good Samsung B-die ICs. Its first word CAS latency calculates to be 9 nanoseconds, compared to something like DDR4-3200 CL14 which is 8.75 nanoseconds. It's also not running "flat" timings, which is increasingly difficult at higher speeds. With the right CPU and motherboard, it might do something like 4133 MT/s 17-17-17-37 @ 1.45-1.5V or even better.

The really good stuff will have a calculated first word CAS latency of ≤8 nanoseconds, something like DDR4-4500 CL18 or even lower (≤7.5 nanoseconds, like DDR4-4800 CL18). Of course, those fast, low latency kits can be very expensive and the law of diminishing returns means they're usually not worth it. Plus, you can often quite easily overclock a "lesser" memory kit to match the performance of one 2 or 3+ times the price.

Edit: Since you're running it with a Ryzen 5 3600, you'll want to keep the speed at 3800 MT/s or lower. With a decent motherboard, that kit should easily do something like 3600 MT/s 14-14-14-34 @ 1.4-1.45V or maybe push it to 3733-3800 MT/s 15-15-15-35 @ 1.45-1.5V if you're lucky. The 3600 MT/s CL14 should definitely be possible and will perform exceptionally well (except for write speeds since AMD made some sacrifices for 3rd gen Ryzen processors with just one CCX/chiplet).

Thanks, This one is rated @ 1.35V so I will either try to push it to 1.45v and 4600MHz, or 3200MHZ with CAS14. Given than I am on B450 chipset ( AORUS PRO ) I might have to lower the frequency to 3600 anyways.

According to Samsung Bdie finder:

B-Die Finder

Find Samsung B-Die DDR 4 memory kits on Amazon, Newegg and many more.

benzhaomin.github.io

These are not Samsung Bdies.
Anyhow for 3000 series ryzen it's not necessary as long as You can pull off 3800mhz cl16? (i dont remember exactly)

Yea I checked on that website, but I think they would have missed this specific model as You cant find it anywhere on EU, USA Stores. Mostly I found it on Russian and Japanese stores so I guess they made it for specific region only.

 

[Vycyous]

According to Samsung Bdie finder:

B-Die Finder

Find Samsung B-Die DDR 4 memory kits on Amazon, Newegg and many more.

benzhaomin.github.io

These are not Samsung Bdies.
Anyhow for 3000 series ryzen it's not necessary as long as You can pull off 3800mhz cl16? (i dont remember exactly)

You can pretty much ignore that and many of the "is this Samsung B-die" lists. You have to look at the speeds and timings. The only other ICs (that I'm aware of, currently on the market) that are capable of DDR4-4000 CL18 (at reasonable voltages of ≤1.5V) is Samsung E-die (it's definitely not being used in that kit), Micron E-die (highly unlikely) or the highest binned Hynix CJR/C-die ever made (again, highly unlikely).

I will either try to push it to 1.45v and 4600MHz, or 3200MHZ with CAS14. Given than I am on B450 chipset ( AORUS PRO ) I might have to lower the frequency to 3600 anyways.

If that motherboard will do 3600 MT/s, that's my recommendation with primary timings of 14-14-14-34 (or close to it) @ approximately 1.4-1.45V (or whatever it takes, up to probably 1.5V max for daily usage). You may have to go in and adjust some of the sub/tertiary timings and voltages, as well. Also, be sure the command rate is 1 (1T). Either way, you'll definitely want to keep it at or below 3800 MT/s since anything over that actually reduces performance.

 

[amit_talkin]

If that motherboard will do 3600 MT/s, that's my recommendation with primary timings of 14-14-14-34 (or close to it) @ approximately 1.4-1.45V (or whatever it takes, up to probably 1.5V max for daily usage). You may have to go in and adjust some of the sub/tertiary timings and voltages, as well. Also, be sure the command rate is 1 (1T). Either way, you'll definitely want to keep it at or below 3800 MT/s since anything over that actually reduces performance.

Motherboard spec. says it can do 3600Mhz. I will start with 3600Mhz first and see how it goes. Can't wait RAM to get shipped

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Looks suspiciously like CJR...

B die usually has RCD and RP <10ns, maybe could be rev E instead?

For reference most of the confirmed b-die kits at 4000c18 are 18-19-19, not 18-22-22, though there do seem to be some references to early b-die 3866 18-22-22 bins...

 

[Vycyous]

Looks suspiciously like CJR...

B die usually has RCD and RP <10ns, maybe could be rev E instead?

For reference most of the confirmed b-die kits at 4000c18 are 18-19-19, not 18-22-22, though there do seem to be some references to early b-die 3866 18-22-22 bins...

Unless they've been binning the hell out of Hynix CJR/C-die for the past year or more, I really can't imagine that's what it is, but there's obviously a chance I'm wrong. Nor would it be Samsung E-die (if that's what you were referring to, as opposed to Micron E-die). I believe Samsung's E-die topped out at 4 Gb (512 MB) ICs, which would mean that it is a dual-rank kit (it's surely not). Micron E-die is a more realistic possibility, but I haven't heard of it showing up in anything except Crucial/Ballistix/Micron branded memory so far.

Here's the top end kit from Ballistix, 4000 MT/s 18-19-19-??:

Gaming Memory

ballistixgaming.com

Back to the possibility of Hynix CJR/C-die, this was the last I've heard of anything close to those speeds and it's not on Gigabyte's website or listed for sale anywhere that I can find:

CES 2019: GIGABYTE Aorus RGB Memory Hits DDR4-4000 with SK Hynix ICs

www.anandtech.com

So, like I said, it seems like it almost has to be slightly lower binned Samsung B-die. I realize that the timings are quite loose compared to the better binned stuff, but I just can't think of what else it could be. If it is Hynix or Micron, I will be very surprised. Then again, I know there are at least a couple of DDR4-3600 CL16 kits on the market using Hynix CJR and, with a calculated CAS latency of 8.89 nanoseconds, they're slightly faster (initially) than the DDR4-4000 CL18 kit in question (9 nanoseconds). There are also a few 3733-3866 CL17-18 kits confirmed to be Hynix, so... who knows? Hopefully, @amit_talkin will confirm with Thaiphoon Burner when the kit arrives and let us know.

 

[amit_talkin]

Yes, rest assured that I will post Thaiphoon screenshot as soon as I get it working on my system.
btw, 4000 XMP won't work on B450 right? or will it?

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Nor would it be Samsung E-die

I meant micron rev E

btw, 4000 XMP won't work on B450 right? or will it?

Assuming the chip and the memory layout are capable of it I don't see why it wouldn't...

Though I think you will find it challenging to run that fast on zen/+ and not pointless on zen2 because you will have desynced FCLK/UCLK

 

[Vycyous]

Yes, rest assured that I will post Thaiphoon screenshot as soon as I get it working on my system.
btw, 4000 XMP won't work on B450 right? or will it?

Probably not, but it might be possible depending on the motherboard's memory topology. Even so, you don't want to be running it at 4000 MT/s with 3rd Gen Ryzen. Keep it at or just below 3800 MT/s and tighten the timings for best performance.

 

[amit_talkin]

Okey, I will try with 3600 MT/s at 16 CAS first and see how it goes. Can't wait to get my hands on this mysterious RAM

 

[Vycyous]

I've been trying to find any information I can about that memory kit to no avail. From what I can tell, I believe that it's a fairly new product/SKU. Combined with the relaxed/loose timings and the fairly low price, I really can't imagine that it's using Samsung's now EOL/discontinued B-die ICs. The only other possibilities, as previously mentioned (that I'm aware of), are Micron E-die or SK Hynix CJR/C-die. Of those two, I'd be willing to bet that it's likely to be the latter (Hynix).

So, @GorbazTheDragon, you're probably right. Of course, either way, it should still perform reasonably well and can probably be run at something like 3600 MT/s 16-19-19-39 (or tighter) on @amit_talkin's 3rd Gen Ryzen/Zen 2 system. Unfortunately, it may have been better to simply purchase something like this memory kit:

F4-3600C16D-16GVKC - Overview - G.SKILL International Enterprise Co., Ltd.

Ripjaws V series DDR4 DRAM memory is designed for sleek aesthetics and performance, making it an ideal choice for building a new PC system or for upgrading your system memory.

www.gskill.com

Or, better yet, this one which is almost guaranteed to be Samsung B-die:

F4-3600C16D-16GVK - Overview - G.SKILL International Enterprise Co., Ltd.

Ripjaws V series DDR4 DRAM memory is designed for sleek aesthetics and performance, making it an ideal choice for building a new PC system or for upgrading your system memory.

www.gskill.com

Or one of the many DDR4-3200 memory kits with timings like 14-14-14-3X that are confirmed, fairly well-binned Samsung B-die and will quite easily do 3600 MT/s with the same timings (14-14-14-3X), or tighter, and just a little extra voltage (1.4-1.45V). At least all five of my B-die kits will easily do that, so I'd expect that most of the decently binned, single-rank B-die will (depending on the motherboard and/or CPU).

 

[Calmmo]

C suffix denotes hynix kits, at least on new kits by gskill. (and the timings confirm it)

 

[Vycyous]

C suffix denotes hynix kits, at least on new kits by gskill. (and the timings confirm it)

Good catch. I didn't even pay attention to the part number. However, is this confirmed or anecdotal? Because the memory kit in question doesn't have a "C" at the end of the part number, so... what is it?

 

[amit_talkin]

I think C denotes CAS latency.

 

[Calmmo]

16GVKC

The C at the end means CJR (probably because it starts from C.. b-die kits will not have that C and it will always be reflected in the price and advertised subtimings. On the the 3600 kits it tends to be 16-19-19-39, bdie will be like **-16GVK with 16-16-16-36

Also do not always trust b-die finder. Some manufacturers like Patriot release certain kits as b-die but a few months/batches later they switch to CJR. Like they did with my PVR416G360C6K which is CJR and listed on b-die sites as b-die because people reviewed those when they came out as b-die.

 

[Vycyous]

16GVKC

The C at the end means CJR (probably because it starts from C.. b-die kits will not have that C and it will always be reflected in the price and advertised subtimings. On the the 3600 kits it tends to be 16-19-19-39, bdie will be like **-16GVK with 16-16-16-36

That doesn't answer the question about the memory kit we're talking about, which does not have a "C" at the end of the part number (see the very first post), despite the fact that it appears to be a fairly new or recently added product/SKU and may very well be using SK Hynix CJR/C-die ICs. As I said above, after giving it some more thought, I don't think it will be Samsung B-die and it seems unlikely to be Micron E-die (personally, I've never run across a G.Skill kit using Micron ICs), so what might it be?

Also do not always trust b-die finder. Some manufacturers like Patriot release certain kits as b-die but a few months/batches later they switch to CJR. Like they did with my PVR416G360C6K which is CJR and listed on b-die sites as b-die because people reviewed those when they came out as b-die.

I agree with you here. And, yes, Patriot seems to be the most guilty manufacturer. That's why I suggest looking closely at the speed and timings to find memory that only Samsung's B-die ICs can (or could) do.

 

[amit_talkin]

This kit is just GVK and not GVKC, and as @Vycyous said, its fairly new SKU. I have searched a bit and found that most of shop added this SKU just this month. So if it is new kit, then I guess its not B-die.

 

[Dyatlov A]

I think it is going to be the new Samsung A die.

 

[eidairaman1]

Stick with GSkill, Patriot, Mushkin, Crucial, Geil, TeamGroup for modules.

 

[amit_talkin]

Stick with GSkill, Patriot, Mushkin, Crucial, Geil, TeamGroup for modules.

wait...what?

 

[Dyatlov A]

I ordered it, I will tell exactly what it is and how well overclocking. I will test timings at 3600MHz near 1,36V. But only next week, seems they do not ship before monday.

 

[eidairaman1]

wait...what?

If you get ram for ryzen stick to those brands.

Possibly Adata too

 

[amit_talkin]

I ordered it, I will tell exactly what it is and how well overclocking. I will test timings at 3600MHz near 1,36V. But only next week, seems they do not ship before monday.

Thats nice! My shop gave me estimated delivery date of 28th October because they have yet to order it from G.Skill .