Large discrepancy in Win98 graphics performance of X850 XT PE

[xtreger]

I'm building a Win98 retro project of my own, using a PCI-e motherboard along with ATI Radeon X850 XT PE. For comparison reference, I used this video:

.

But for some reason there's quite a gap between stats in that video vs. what I'm getting. The person in that video is using a P5PKL-AM SE, with 1 GB RAM, X850 XT PE, C2D E8600 processor, Win98. I'm using P5PKL-AM PS, with 4 GB RAM, X850 XT PE, C2D E8500 processor, Win 98. The Win98 3DMark 2001 SE score in that video seems to be 37k for this setup. However I'm getting 30K score. Also his avg. FPS for Quake 3 is around 600 or so at 1024x768 resolution, while I'm getting slightly more than 400 (I've been careful to match the display settings).

Also, using another one of that person's video, I compared performance in WinXP too. There the performance in 3DMark 2001 SE was matching - around 40k.

So I'm a bit confused - what could be the reason for the large discrepancy in Win98? I've matched the hardware (almost) and the VGA driver.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Matched what driver? (I didn't watch the videos)

Have you tried Omega drivers? Perhaps a newer or older driver than what dude uses in the video?

W98 kind of sucks. Better off with XP NTFS file system anyways (IMO)

 

[xtreger]

Matched what driver? (I didn't watch the videos)

Have you tried Omega drivers? Perhaps a newer or older driver than what dude uses in the video?

W98 kind of sucks. Better off with XP NTFS file system anyways (IMO)

Thanks for pointing me to Omega drivers! I will try those too.

And yeah objectively speaking XP is better than Win98, but Win98 was part of childhood for me so I'm attached to it lol. Plus, there's some retro games that Win98 is better suited to play

 

[Solaris17]

Thanks for pointing me to Omega drivers! I will try those too.

And yeah objectively speaking XP is better than Win98, but Win98 was part of childhood for me so I'm attached to it lol. Plus, there's some retro games that Win98 is better suited to play

Dont forget directX was a standalone installer back then, not part of the OS. I think 98-XP can handle 9.0c with service packs.

 

[Onasi]

Dont forget directX was a standalone installer back then, not part of the OS. I think 98-XP can handle 9.0c with service packs.

It’s a bit of a weird situation. 98 SE does indeed support 9.0c, but not all the versions. You need ones that are no later than 8th of December 2006. Any newer and it won’t support 98, you would need 2000 at least.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Thanks for pointing me to Omega drivers! I will try those too.

And yeah objectively speaking XP is better than Win98, but Win98 was part of childhood for me so I'm attached to it lol. Plus, there's some retro games that Win98 is better suited to play

welcome!

Well as far as the benchmark difference, 3dmark 01 SE is sensitive to LOD, memory (system memory too) clocks, of course GPU core clocks as well. It'll be difficult to pin point without looking at everything very very closely.

Here's a quick basic LOD adjuster you can play around with, makes it easy. Should help in some situations for sure.

 

[Carillon]

The linked video shows 2 different scores for the pcie x850, the first one using the same mobo you have with the e8600 is 33k, the second one does not specify and is the 37k you were expecting to achieve.
I wouldn't trust either results

 

[Paganstomp]

Newer drivers may perform worse in benchmarking than older versions. I think Phil's Computer lab addresses that. Then there is RAM speeds & specs and BIOS tweaks... a handful of other things that can cause performance improvements or degrades. I have four systems that can run Windows 98SE. I normally benchmark those systems using Win XP SP2 since driver changes are handled much better then with Win98.

 

[xtreger]

welcome!

Well as far as the benchmark difference, 3dmark 01 SE is sensitive to LOD, memory (system memory too) clocks, of course GPU core clocks as well. It'll be difficult to pin point without looking at everything very very closely.

Here's a quick basic LOD adjuster you can play around with, makes it easy. Should help in some situations for sure.

So I removed a 2Gb RAM stick and voila - score jumped from 30k to 36.3k. Very strange behavior in Win98

Regarding omega drivers - I checked and I think for X850 series they're there only for Win2k onwards

 

[ShrimpBrime]

So I removed a 2Gb RAM stick and voila - score jumped from 30k to 36.3k. Very strange behavior in Win98

Regarding omega drivers - I checked and I think for X850 series they're there only for Win2k onwards

Omega 3rd party was better in most cases because ATI software support was sub par back then.

Haven't played with W98 in many years, though I do have it on floppy somewhere.

Glad you figured it out! Good stuff!

 

[Imperator]

I normally benchmark those systems using Win XP SP2 since driver changes are handled much better then with Win98.

Hi there.
I personally adopted XP SP3 as the retro computer OS.
Why you suggested SP2 ?
I own 2x 775i65G rigs. Main one have revision 3.03 and it has core2quad 6700 and video card Sapphire 3850 AGP and 2GB DDR 400 RAM.
2nd rig have revision 2.03, it has Core2Duo 6600 , Sapphire HD3850 AGP 512MB and 2GB DDR400 RAM.

Both retro rigs have multiple boot.
Lowest OS installed is XP SP3 - x86.
But it would be interesting to have at least on one of them Win 98 SE for testing purposes.

 

[OMORES]

ATI drivers are relatively easy to install on Windows 98, but with some tweaks, you can also get NVIDIA 7900 series cards to run on the same system—bringing next-generation GPU performance into play...The ATI X800 series competed with NVIDIA's 6000 series at the time. On a modern system, I'm getting like 52K in 3DMark 2001SE. (no OC)

 

[eidairaman1]

98SE never had pcie support.

 

[OMORES]

98SE never had pcie support.

It wasn't absolutely necessary, for Windows 98 PCI-E is the same thing as PCI*. I've tested a 7900GS both in Windows 98 and Windows XP on Half Life 2 with everything maxed out and the results were identical. And this 7900GS was a native Windows XP card with best driver support possible.

*"At the software level, PCI Express preserves backward compatibility with PCI; legacy PCI system software can detect and configure newer PCI Express devices without explicit support for the PCI Express standard, though new PCI Express features are inaccessible. "

 

[Vayra86]

The crazy workings of early computing. Fantastic read and knowledge, all these little exceptions

 

[mb194dc]

Why use 98? Better to use a newer NT based OS.

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

I use this for help getting win 98se installs ready to game

Unofficial Windows 98 Second Edition Service Pack 3.66

I agree with the other graybeards that the hardware might be a bit spicy for 98......though it is cool.

 

[Ferrum Master]

IMHO the answer lies in GART like driver non existence for pcie, and it works like in PCI mode, just as in the old days.

 

[BlaezaLite]

Why use 98? Better to use a newer NT based OS.

They are using 98 due to childhood memories. Very important to read.

 

[Dr. Dro]

ATI drivers are relatively easy to install on Windows 98, but with some tweaks, you can also get NVIDIA 7900 series cards to run on the same system—bringing next-generation GPU performance into play...The ATI X800 series competed with NVIDIA's 6000 series at the time. On a modern system, I'm getting like 52K in 3DMark 2001SE. (no OC)

Your videos on getting 98 to run on Alder Lake were crazy and greatly enjoyable. Good stuff, man! Nice to see you here at TPU.

Shame the 8000 series only have drivers for Windows 2000. I have an E8600 and a motherboard stopped here, but my only GPU is a Quadro FX 5600 (G80), so no 9x fun for me.

 

[Steevo]

Post a few screenshot of CPUz GPUz and or you can find versions of Aida that still support it.

 

[OMORES]

Your videos on getting 98 to run on Alder Lake were crazy and greatly enjoyable. Good stuff, man! Nice to see you here at TPU.

Shame the 8000 series only have drivers for Windows 2000. I have an E8600 and a motherboard stopped here, but my only GPU is a Quadro FX 5600 (G80), so no 9x fun for me.

Thank you for the feedback! The 8000 series features a completely different design, utilizing DX10 and CUDA cores, and it was released after Windows 98 had been retired. As a result, these cards can't be hacked to work with Windows 9x... The 7900GTX is the best option for Windows 98.

 

[Ruru]

Why use 98? Better to use a newer NT based OS.

Some old games simply refuse to work on 2k/XP.

 

[Marcus L]

Are you dual booting this system as iirc windows 98 can only utilise up to 768Mb of ram, I'm surprised it will boot at all with 2Gb installed

 

[Ruru]

Are you dual booting this system as iirc windows 98 can only utilise up to 768Mb of ram, I'm surprised it will boot at all with 2Gb installed

Wikipedia says that "Windows 98 is only designed to handle up to 512 MB of RAM without changes."

I ran with 512MB back in the day without any issues. Still more than enough for 98SE.