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Thermal Pads & Liquid Metal / Thermal Paste

aQi

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Hi Folks,

I want your opinion on these and perhaps a link for buying it budget friendly.

Iv mostly used MX-4 as a standard for building systems and even applied it on heating hardware like motherboard chipsets (North/South), laptops, graphic cards etc. Though i would like some good option too. Liquid Metal and thermal Pads.

Im looking to cool down some gpu and chipsets. For that i need to know about thermal pads (the best ones) and liquid metal as to if liquid metal is good for chipsets (motherboad) and gfx chips. And what if liquid metal is combined wtih Thermal Pad (ridiculous idea?)
More over what is good in terms of thermal solution for most hardware and most clients dont prefer liquid metal or removal of IHS.
 
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Recently I got a GPU water block from EK. Used the thermal paste provided on a Ryzen 1700 4.3 Ghz and am tickled with the results. ordered some more EK-TIM Ectotherm (5g) 7 bucks from EK - sweet - has a 12 hour burn in period it seems.
Put the EK thermal pads that came with the new block on a heating pad along with the pads that came on the GPU stock and with my handy dandy laser temp. gun got a 1C better reading with the EK pads - was a totally unscientific test.

Good Luck
 

aQi

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Recently I got a GPU water block from EK. Used the thermal paste provided on a Ryzen 1700 4.3 Ghz and am tickled with the results. ordered some more EK-TIM Ectotherm (5g) 7 bucks from EK - sweet - has a 12 hour burn in period it seems.
Put the EK thermal pads that came with the new block on a heating pad along with the pads that came on the GPU stock and with my handy dandy laser temp. gun got a 1C better reading with the EK pads - was a totally unscientific test.

Good Luck
So your preference is towards Pads ?
 
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And what if liquid metal is combined wtih Thermal Pad (ridiculous idea?)
Yes, that is a ridiculous (perhaps dangerous!) idea. Don't do it. In fact, don't mix any two types of TIM (thermal interface material)! You don't know the chemical composition of those products and if you did, are you a chemist? It could be like mixing bleach and ammonia! Two great and relatively safe cleaning products on their own, but mix them together and you can destroy your eyes and lungs and cause chemical burns on your skin. Okay, that is extreme with TIM but it surely could mean you destroy the heat transfer efficiency - defeating your purpose for using TIM in the first place.

It is important to use a good quality TIM. But more than the brand and model number it is important to make sure you apply it properly. Remember, the primary purpose of TIM is to fill the microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces to push any insulating air out of the way. This is because the most efficient transfer of heat occurs with direct metal-to-metal contact. So any excess TIM is in the way and counterproductive to the efficient transfer of heat.

I don't recommend liquid metal TIMs because some are not suitable for all metals - some "react" badly with aluminum for example and many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys. It's good at transferring heat, but there are too many precautions for the value, IMO.

The key is proper application. If you gob too much TIM on and it squishes out into the socket or on to the circuit board, problems may occur. When applying a new layer of TIM, you want it to be as thin as possible, while still providing full coverage. So start with a small dab. It is easier to add more than to remove excess.

Make sure you thoroughly clean off all the old TIM and any other contaminants before applying a fresh new layer. I use 91-93% isopropyl alcohol and cotton swabs or pads. And then I give the mating surfaces a quick blast of compressed dusting gas just before mounting.

To apply the TIM, what I do is snip off the end of a plastic shaft cotton swab (Q-Tip). Then I bend the shaft about 1/2 inch from the cut end to form a little "hockey stick" applicator. Do NOT go by that "grain of rice" nonsense. There are 1000s of varieties of rice of all different sizes. Apply just a small dab of TIM on the die, then spread the TIM across the die with the hockey stick applicator, like spreading icing on a cake.

Don't forget ESD precautions. ALWAYS unplug the computer from the wall and touch bare metal of the case interior to discharge any static in your body BEFORE reaching in.

Contrary to what some seem to believe you do NOT have to have the best TIM out there. It just needs to be decent TIM properly applied. If you look at all the reviews of the most popular TIMs, there typically is only a few degrees difference between them. If your computer "needs" those few degrees to remain stable or avoid crossing thermal protection thresholds, YOU FAILED to properly configure your case cooling! If you like your MX-4, I say stick with it!
 
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@Bill_Bright many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys.

Most if not all modern processors IHS are copper coated in nickel, Same applies to expensive & reasonable priced coolers, the base are copper but some are coated with nickel.
 
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Hi Folks,

I want your opinion on these and perhaps a link for buying it budget friendly.

Iv mostly used MX-4 as a standard for building systems and even applied it on heating hardware like motherboard chipsets (North/South), laptops, graphic cards etc. Though i would like some good option too. Liquid Metal and thermal Pads.

Im looking to cool down some gpu and chipsets. For that i need to know about thermal pads (the best ones) and liquid metal as to if liquid metal is good for chipsets (motherboad) and gfx chips. And what if liquid metal is combined wtih Thermal Pad (ridiculous idea?)
More over what is good in terms of thermal solution for most hardware and most clients dont prefer liquid metal or removal of IHS.
 
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aQi

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Yes, that is a ridiculous (perhaps dangerous!) idea. Don't do it. In fact, don't mix any two types of TIM (thermal interface material)! You don't know the chemical composition of those products and if you did, are you a chemist? It could be like mixing bleach and ammonia! Two great and relatively safe cleaning products on their own, but mix them together and you can destroy your eyes and lungs and cause chemical burns on your skin. Okay, that is extreme with TIM but it surely could mean you destroy the heat transfer efficiency - defeating your purpose for using TIM in the first place.

It is important to use a good quality TIM. But more than the brand and model number it is important to make sure you apply it properly. Remember, the primary purpose of TIM is to fill the microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces to push any insulating air out of the way. This is because the most efficient transfer of heat occurs with direct metal-to-metal contact. So any excess TIM is in the way and counterproductive to the efficient transfer of heat.

I don't recommend liquid metal TIMs because some are not suitable for all metals - some "react" badly with aluminum for example and many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys. It's good at transferring heat, but there are too many precautions for the value, IMO.

The key is proper application. If you gob too much TIM on and it squishes out into the socket or on to the circuit board, problems may occur. When applying a new layer of TIM, you want it to be as thin as possible, while still providing full coverage. So start with a small dab. It is easier to add more than to remove excess.

Make sure you thoroughly clean off all the old TIM and any other contaminants before applying a fresh new layer. I use 91-93% isopropyl alcohol and cotton swabs or pads. And then I give the mating surfaces a quick blast of compressed dusting gas just before mounting.

To apply the TIM, what I do is snip off the end of a plastic shaft cotton swab (Q-Tip). Then I bend the shaft about 1/2 inch from the cut end to form a little "hockey stick" applicator. Do NOT go by that "grain of rice" nonsense. There are 1000s of varieties of rice of all different sizes. Apply just a small dab of TIM on the die, then spread the TIM across the die with the hockey stick applicator, like spreading icing on a cake.

Don't forget ESD precautions. ALWAYS unplug the computer from the wall and touch bare metal of the case interior to discharge any static in your body BEFORE reaching in.

Contrary to what some seem to believe you do NOT have to have the best TIM out there. It just needs to be decent TIM properly applied. If you look at all the reviews of the most popular TIMs, there typically is only a few degrees difference between them. If your computer "needs" those few degrees to remain stable or avoid crossing thermal protection thresholds, YOU FAILED to properly configure your case cooling! If you like your MX-4, I say stick with it!

Thanks for taking out the time to propose proper application of TIM under thermal solution and its capabilities. It has been a while iv used MX-4 and like wise i use the same technique applying TIM. I use plastic tool (made my own) to apply TIM and i precisely form a thin layer depending on the presure of the cooler and hardware specifically after cleaning the surface by alcohol pad.
But the presure gas is new. Shed some light if it’s necessary. I just applied MX-4 for a system but next time i will definitely upload some pics.
I get impressive temps too yet i want to know about these thermal pads. How they work. Liquid metal is always applied on surfaces where cpu and highend gpu are dilided.
I recently took off passive heatsinks from old Asus Rampage Formula to refresh its TIM on it. And i found Thermal Pads (Probably 0.5mm thick) and a Whitish TIM (Probably Silicon based) on chips. This made me question why would someone use both ?

Just saying that the EK pads are a good choice for substitute for factory pads - U want Thermal paste on GPU and CPU for sure / not pads
EK pads are available for sale ? There is nothing on their website.
 
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Thanks for taking out the time to propose proper application of TIM under thermal solution and its capabilities. It has been a while iv used MX-4 and like wise i use the same technique applying TIM. I use plastic tool (made my own) to apply TIM and i precisely form a thin layer depending on the presure of the cooler and hardware specifically after cleaning the surface by alcohol pad.
But the presure gas is new. Shed some light if it’s necessary. I just applied MX-4 for a system but next time i will definitely upload some pics.
I get impressive temps too yet i want to know about these thermal pads. How they work. Liquid metal is always applied on surfaces where cpu and highend gpu are dilided.
I recently took off passive heatsinks from old Asus Rampage Formula to refresh its TIM on it. And i found Thermal Pads (Probably 0.5mm thick) and a Whitish TIM (Probably Silicon based) on chips. This made me question why would someone use both ?


EK pads are available for sale ? There is nothing on their website.

I would use ArticSilver 5 thermal paste.
I would use thermal pads on RAM chips etc.
I would not use liquid metal as it can be destructive if it runs.

I have read a lot of threads about application process of thermal paste... back when I was into Alienware.
I never use a card or tool. I have gotten lazy and just put a small pea size on a CPU or size of long grain rice on a smaller laptop nvidia chip. (1 1/2" square). If Ryzen larger chip, a fat pea size blob.
Some do an X pattern.

I read an article on application of thermal paste by one putting a bag over his finger tightly pressing on the finger so it is perfectly round, no edges.. under pressure of the blood in your finger. Applying a thin coat on the entire chip spreading with that bag (tricky to do, starting from center to the out sides of the chip) but it is not a rubber glove and allows a thin none finger print application to fine coat the chip (stain the chip). The goal is to stain the chip... Then do the normal X.
"cure" is a heating of chip under loads hot cool hot cool, this fluxes the grooves of the metal with the paste ''better'' then application can and allows to harden the paste some.. that is the break in period of new thermal paste..
Have you ever removed a Waterblock off a CPU and rubbing alcohol'd the block, there still is a stain. When it is new there is no stain. You want to stain the chip and block to allow less time for 'cure'. (pretty much what it came down to).

Anyway, that is my belief and all of what I read about thermal past on chips.

Then there is lapping of chips to take the 'crown' off the chip ( that is another topic).
The only thing you are doing by any application of paste or liquid is to fill the valleys of metal from machining of the metal or cut of the metal.. the VvvVvV surface. Just a paper thin or how ever thin is needed to make it glass smooth in between both CPU (Chip) to heatsync. That's it.

I don't know why you would want to go to such tasks to thermal paste RAM chips then use thermal pads (as one comment in this thread said is wrong) IF you are doing that.

To lap a chip or use liquid metal is ... to me.. only for high end over clocking (to beat the top score in benchmarks).

I just use ArticSilver 5 and allow a few weeks for it to cure to get your full result. Don't expect any thermal paste to give full results on the NOW bench right after you apply it.

Also, turn the heatsync 1/8 to 1/16th of a turn when pressing down on to the chip.. When I put down my Waterblock on my CPU, I give it a slight twist left then back to the right...this helps seat in the paste into those valleys VvvVvVVv of the chip.

I think your way over thinking. Just do as was already done, paste and pads.
Unless you are going for the worlds record on 3DMark.
 
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Thanks for taking out the time to propose proper application of TIM under thermal solution and its capabilities.
No problem. As suggested by the 4th line in my sig, heat management is something I have taken a particular interest in.

@Bill_Bright many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys.
Ummm, okay. Your point? Note I said (my bold underline added this time)
I don't recommend liquid metal TIMs because some are not suitable for all metals - some "react" badly with aluminum for example and many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys.
I did not say "all" coolers. And certainly, many coolers still use aluminum because it is a much better conductor of heat than nickel and much less expensive than copper too.
 
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I don't recommend liquid metal TIMs because some are not suitable for all metals - some "react" badly with aluminum for example and many coolers and processor lids are made of aluminum or aluminum alloys.
I did not say "all" coolers. And certainly, many coolers still use aluminum because it is a much better conductor of heat than nickel and much less expensive than copper too.
Talking to yourself?
:)
 
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Apparently. :rolleyes:
 

aQi

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I would use ArticSilver 5 thermal paste.
I would use thermal pads on RAM chips etc.
I would not use liquid metal as it can be destructive if it runs.

I have read a lot of threads about application process of thermal paste... back when I was into Alienware.
I never use a card or tool. I have gotten lazy and just put a small pea size on a CPU or size of long grain rice on a smaller laptop nvidia chip. (1 1/2" square). If Ryzen larger chip, a fat pea size blob.
Some do an X pattern.

I read an article on application of thermal paste by one putting a bag over his finger tightly pressing on the finger so it is perfectly round, no edges.. under pressure of the blood in your finger. Applying a thin coat on the entire chip spreading with that bag (tricky to do, starting from center to the out sides of the chip) but it is not a rubber glove and allows a thin none finger print application to fine coat the chip (stain the chip). The goal is to stain the chip... Then do the normal X.
"cure" is a heating of chip under loads hot cool hot cool, this fluxes the grooves of the metal with the paste ''better'' then application can and allows to harden the paste some.. that is the break in period of new thermal paste..
Have you ever removed a Waterblock off a CPU and rubbing alcohol'd the block, there still is a stain. When it is new there is no stain. You want to stain the chip and block to allow less time for 'cure'. (pretty much what it came down to).

Anyway, that is my belief and all of what I read about thermal past on chips.

Then there is lapping of chips to take the 'crown' off the chip ( that is another topic).
The only thing you are doing by any application of paste or liquid is to fill the valleys of metal from machining of the metal or cut of the metal.. the VvvVvV surface. Just a paper thin or how ever thin is needed to make it glass smooth in between both CPU (Chip) to heatsync. That's it.

I don't know why you would want to go to such tasks to thermal paste RAM chips then use thermal pads (as one comment in this thread said is wrong) IF you are doing that.

To lap a chip or use liquid metal is ... to me.. only for high end over clocking (to beat the top score in benchmarks).

I just use ArticSilver 5 and allow a few weeks for it to cure to get your full result. Don't expect any thermal paste to give full results on the NOW bench right after you apply it.

Also, turn the heatsync 1/8 to 1/16th of a turn when pressing down on to the chip.. When I put down my Waterblock on my CPU, I give it a slight twist left then back to the right...this helps seat in the paste into those valleys VvvVvVVv of the chip.

I think your way over thinking. Just do as was already done, paste and pads.
Unless you are going for the worlds record on 3DMark.

Well iv always wondered why they used pads+silicon paste on chipsets and ram ic. Well as always the goal is to get a plain surface with a very thin layer. So expensive ones like liquid metal are pointless if one does not propose benching ? And liquid metal wont end up giving lower temps then mx-4 ? Under loads ?
As not all my clients use AIO. Some of even ask for just passive coolers which i normally dont recommend for high end cpus.
I always pressure diagonally and slow as possible to properly seat the intact between cooler and cpu/gpu.
On thing i must add and agree with you. After cleaning both the surface of cooler and cpu i apply thin layer on both of them. And i do make sure the layer is thin and even. Trust me if you give good time the results will be impressive.

No problem. As suggested by the 4th line in my sig, heat management is something I have taken a particular interest in.


Ummm, okay. Your point? Note I said (my bold underline added this time)
I did not say "all" coolers. And certainly, many coolers still use aluminum because it is a much better conductor of heat than nickel and much less expensive than copper too.

Bill what about silicon and thermal pads together ?
And you might have heard about graphite thermal pads (conductive)
 
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Well iv always wondered why they used pads+silicon paste on chipsets and ram ic. Well as always the goal is to get a plain surface with a very thin layer. So expensive ones like liquid metal are pointless if one does not propose benching ? And liquid metal wont end up giving lower temps then mx-4 ? Under loads ?
As not all my clients use AIO. Some of even ask for just passive coolers which i normally dont recommend for high end cpus.
I always pressure diagonally and slow as possible to properly seat the intact between cooler and cpu/gpu.
On thing i must add and agree with you. After cleaning both the surface of cooler and cpu i apply thin layer on both of them. And i do make sure the layer is thin and even. Trust me if you give good time the results will be impressive.



Bill what about silicon and thermal pads together ?
And you might have heard about graphite thermal pads (conductive)
I don't like Liquid Metal because if it runs, it is conductive. It will allow electricity to travel. Zap.
 
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I've done a bunch of cooling stuff over the years; here's some of the stuff I've picked up.

Start with the easy stuff; Here's a table for thermal conductivity of metals:


Note the top four are Silver, Copper, Gold, and Aluminum, in that order. I've never seen a gold heatsink, but they exist; for use in boiling acid, apparently.

That's why good thermal compound is filled with Silver dust, in a binder material; the Silver powder does all the work.

Note Nickel is about 1/5 as good as silver; I lap the nickel layer off heat sinks I use. Copper won't oxidize covered with silicone oil.

I also lap the top of the Processor heatspreader; why settle for less, and it's easy. I write the processor type on a sheet of paper, and tuck it in the machine, if it laps the info off.
You shouldn't really have to go that far, but some are worse than others; I use an optical Flat to test the surfaces.

The smoothest surface transfers the most heat; the compound is just to fill any air voids, as air is a pitiful heat conductor by comparison.
You don't need to go any lower than the minimum grain size of the compound you use; liquid metal can take advantage of extreme flatness.
With silver based compound, going to optically flat actually hurts, because now there's no gaps to fill with silver particles; it leaves them sitting on the surface, like sand between two plates of glass.
Best case is voids slightly smaller than the grain size, so the particles fill the voids, and stick up, allowing other particles from the other side to intermingle slightly.
The higher the surface area of the contact points, the more heat can be transferred.

Thinner layers are always the best; Smooth, thin layers without leaving air voids will give a minimum working temperature for a given heat transfer.

Anyone who tells you to "rough up the HS surface" doesn't know what they're talking about.

Some things I've used:
Gallistan has a thermal coefficient of about 16.5 W/mK (liquid metal thermal compound is mostly this, with varying amounts of indium)
AS5 is about 8.7 W/(m·K) , Noctua is about 8.5 W/mK ; both are Silver filled Silicone oil. (Expect ~7W/mK as installed, you never get what they say.)
IC diamond lists 4.5 W/m-K, which is worse than what I've measured AS5 at, lol. I've never used thi$.
NaK is a terrible thermal interface material. :) (It's been tried; not good for humid locations, lol.)

99% of my computers use AS5 or equivalent, since it first became available.
Earlier ones used the white goop, lol. Don't bother, it sux, by comparison. :)

If you want to start with the best cooling solution, I'd start here:
The Solid Silver one is listed at $275. :)

Someone else may make these; the hard part is the skived inner fins for transfer to the water, if that's not done well, then the performance will be poor regardless.

Skived fins:

(Stolen from Ebay)

Some people advertise CNC'ed fins, I'd want to know how they're connected to the plate. Skived is shaved, so it's direct metal.

Getting the heat to the ambient is also very important; water moves heat very well, but Heat Pipes do too, and don't leak.
The bigger the radiator surface area, whether it's mounted on a Heat Pipe or a water loop, works the best, and makes all the difference.

There, you want the maximum area of thermal contact as well; cheap fins loosely coupled to the heat pipes suck, as do "multi-pass" copper tube type radiators.
Fin and plate type radiators are the best; they have water flowing thru thin tubes from one side to the other, like good transmission coolers do.

I've seen heat pipe radiators filled with water (and Ammonia, and NaK) to move heat across the plates; they're a bit pricey and problematic for home computer use, though.


All of these tweaks are only going to give you a few degrees; If lapping, Diamond, or liquid metal give you a 10 degree improvement at the top end, you probably did something wrong before, and corrected it when you redid it. :)

These days I personally just buy a big copper heat pipe cooler from a reputable place, lap the surfaces, and use AS5; everything else on a system I want to actually use is kind of frivolous.
They rarely fit in the case, though. :)

I had one of these on a P4, lol.

That's 2.2 kilos of solid copper, lol.

Also, thermal pads are gap fillers; replacing them with a properly sized copper shim, and putting compound on both sides will Always be better.

I only use them where there's no choice.
 
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I've always gone with thermal pads on mem chips/vrms etc when renovating/cleaning my GPU's but have been using Arctic MX2 recently on the die itself as it's non-conductive and it's a pretty damn good performer. Knocked 5c off my Arctic Silver 5 I was using previosly (though some of that could have been down to technique.)
 
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Thermal pads are thermal pads imho,,,, when it comes to liquid silver paste you cant go wrong.. If the IHS is copper then it will soak into the copper till it saturates but once saturation happens you'll get the best cooling prtformance.. I run a copper block Vega 56 and it's copper and after after avout 3 applications I get no more issues... Copper and LM take time but if you have the time its well worth it.
 

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Right now I am using Thermalright TF8. Best stuff I've used so far, love it.
 
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Thermal pads are thermal pads imho,,,, when it comes to liquid silver paste you cant go wrong.. If the IHS is copper then it will soak into the copper till it saturates but once saturation happens you'll get the best cooling prtformance.. I run a copper block Vega 56 and it's copper and after after avout 3 applications I get no more issues... Copper and LM take time but if you have the time its well worth it.

That's correct. I have been using LM on my R9 Nano for some time now. Once it has settled, don't disturb it, ie take the card apart. It can run with max power "just" @1000MHz without throttling with "automatic fan speed". .. 80c with Unigine Heaven.
 
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Thanks for taking out the time to propose proper application of TIM under thermal solution and its capabilities. It has been a while iv used MX-4 and like wise i use the same technique applying TIM. I use plastic tool (made my own) to apply TIM and i precisely form a thin layer depending on the presure of the cooler and hardware specifically after cleaning the surface by alcohol pad.
But the presure gas is new. Shed some light if it’s necessary. I just applied MX-4 for a system but next time i will definitely upload some pics.
I get impressive temps too yet i want to know about these thermal pads. How they work. Liquid metal is always applied on surfaces where cpu and highend gpu are dilided.
I recently took off passive heatsinks from old Asus Rampage Formula to refresh its TIM on it. And i found Thermal Pads (Probably 0.5mm thick) and a Whitish TIM (Probably Silicon based) on chips. This made me question why would someone use both ?


EK pads are available for sale ? There is nothing on their website.
 
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