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Only some humans can see refresh rates faster than others, I am one of those humans.

Low quality post by Dragam1337
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Dont even get me started on 60 vs 144...

Because they certainly never had that, otherwise topics like this wouldn't exist at all.

Talk about talking out of your arse...
 
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Much depends on screen display technology , screen size , interference from other light sources.

I would imagine all of those that can see 240+ Hz need special room lighting because the constant 50 or 60 Hz flicker is giving you all a constant headache ?
 
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Much depends on screen display technology , screen size , interference from other light sources.

I would imagine all of those that can see 240+ Hz need special room lighting because the constant 50 or 60 Hz flicker is giving you all a constant headache ?

Can I ask a question?
Do you actually own a 240hz monitor? Do you have a 144hz monitor to compare to a 240hz monitor?
And I will need proof because I'm wary of trolls.
 
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I remember the time when they switched to new HD recording equipment for reporting Cycling races.
Watching those images gave me a instant headache.

Somehow the blurry analog images got processed in a way by my brain that it was way more comfortable to watch than the sharp digital HD recorded images.
 
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I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to understand this statement:
I would imagine all of those that can see 240+ Hz need special room lighting because the constant 50 or 60 Hz flicker is giving you all a constant headache ?

Because this is just nonsense.
I can perceive the motion clarity benefits from 240hz vs 280hz on fast paced games like apex and I guarantee you I don't have special lighting. On games like cs2? Not so much, 200hz and 240hz feels exactly the same, depends on the game.

And I'm also left wondering what flicker you mention? That would only happen with VRR with wildly inconsistent frametimes from lack of harwdare power. At that point it's a hardware problem, not a display problem.
 

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Can I ask a question?
Do you actually own a 240hz monitor? Do you have a 144hz monitor to compare to a 240hz monitor?
And I will need proof because I'm wary of trolls.
Don't get me started on people claiming to be full bottle while not owning the requisite hardware to test a given thing.
 
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Yeah, I start noticing a trend.
People who claim the nonsense mostly have old cpu's and old systems.
Then we have people who have powerfull systems but just don't care and are happy at 60hz, I can actually respect that.

Ofc you are not getting the benefit of high refresh rates if your system can't keep up. VRR can only do so much. Playing high refresh rate with bad frametimes is a miserable experience.
Then we have threads of vrr flicker (not related to this topic btw), vrr flicker is symptom of a system that can't keep up.
 
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You should use your time better.
Trolling on a forum its just a sad existence.
But you do you.



Can I ask a question?
Do you actually own a 240hz monitor? Do you have a 144hz monitor to compare to a 240hz monitor?
And I will need proof because I'm wary of trolls.

The only troll here is you, dude.

Everyones eyes are different, as also proven by the studies. My samsung qn900c does 8k60 or 4k144, and i vastly prefer 8k60.
 
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Those studies are pure nonsense to bait people like you.

We not even talking about 144hz vs 240.

It's 60hz vs 144, you are 100% a troll.
 
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Those studies are pure nonsense to bait people like you.

If you don't see the difference between 60hz and 144hz you need a doctor, not an online discussion.

Yet again proving who is actually trolling...
 
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I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to understand this statement:


Because this is just nonsense.
I can perceive the motion clarity benefits from 240hz vs 280hz on fast paced games like apex and I guarantee you I don't have special lighting. On games like cs2? Not so much, 200hz and 240hz feels exactly the same, depends on the game.

And I'm also left wondering what flicker you mention? That would only happen with VRR with wildly inconsistent frametimes from lack of harwdare power. At that point it's a hardware problem, not a display problem.
Well , I am sitting at my computerdesk which has a keyboard tray illuminated by a LED strip that starts acting up and flickering and it annoys the heck out of me.
So , if you can percieve the difference between 144 165 or 200 Hz , isn't 50 or 60 Hz lighting like a constant flickering to you?
 
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Couldn't tell you, i don't have any rgb on my build, mice and keyboard included. Never liked lights going off while gaming.
Maybe you onto to something.
 
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It is one of those "if you know, you know" type situations. Most people will be happy for a lifetime playing at 60Hz, but once they dip into 120Hz on a daily basis, going back to 60Hz is immediately pure torture. I had the Pixel 7a for some time and even the 120Hz to 90Hz downgrade was a difficult pill to swallow, even though 60Hz to 90Hz would have felt great.

With the advent of VRR, I can *kinda* understand people saying they can't distinguish 60Hz from 120Hz, based on some mix of personal characteristics/individual game design/frame pacing/input lag etc. With a good panel, some well optimized games can certainly play better at 60Hz than others do at 120Hz.

What seals the deal for me is 120Hz on phones. There's no debate to be had - the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz on a phone is so starkly obvious, that an inability to tell can only be down to personal characteristics.

I run my samsung s23 at 60hz - lots less power used than 120 hz, no real difference to me using it, so easy choice.
 
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The only troll here is you, dude.

Everyones eyes are different, as also proven by the studies. My samsung qn900c does 8k60 or 4k144, and i vastly prefer 8k60.

Are you gaming on it, though? 8K is about 4x the pixel count of 4K, so no wonder it looks better, especially on a native 8K panel. 144 Hz motion is simply superior otherwise, but that's just about useless if you're watching movies shot at 24 fps on it...

My primary concern with 8K TVs at this point in time is sourcing native 8K media. UHD Blu-rays are 4K only and streaming services do not support the resolution. Games may output that resolution but next to none have high enough asset quality for it to matter, so I don't know really.
 
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Running judges in athletics still disqualify runners who react less than 100ms after the shot to start the run. Tell you what, if they follow the way of thinking of some colleagues here on the forum and let everyone start when they "hear" "boom", there will be people who have started before the third judge pulls the trigger.

Lets repeat. I see here a bunch of superman's.
Hopefully there's a lot of kryptonite around, otherwise we common folk don't stand a chance.
 
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Running judges in athletics still disqualify runners who react less than 100ms after the shot to start the run. Tell you what, if they follow the way of thinking of some colleagues here on the forum and let everyone start when they "hear" "boom", there will be people who have started before the third judge pulls the trigger.

Lets repeat. I see here a bunch of superman's.
Hopefully there's a lot of kryptonite around, otherwise we common folk don't stand a chance.

What monitors do you actually own?

Can you do side by side comparisons that are worthwhile for the topic?
 
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Are you gaming on it, though? 8K is about 4x the pixel count of 4K, so no wonder it looks better, especially on a native 8K panel. 144 Hz motion is simply superior otherwise, but that's just about useless if you're watching movies shot at 24 fps on it...

Yeah, i got my tv hooked up to my pc with a 20 meter 8k fiber-optic hdmi cable, and play games like witcher, jedi, etc on my tv.

8k makes very little difference for movies as there aren't any movies actually made in 8k - however, it does look mindblowing with 8k hdr youtube though, like this video


As for 144 hz, i barely see the difference between it and 60 hz tbh. But the detail in games at 8k... next level stuff.

My personal theory is that the rate at which your eyes "updates" coincides with reaction times, where mine is admittedly rather slow. I've noticed that all the people i know who can't stand low fps all score very fast reaction times in the reaction time tests.
 
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Yeah, that's what I was saying back in post #68 (not that I blame you for missing one post in a multi-page thread).

Strobing displays work through persistence of vision, which is well-understood science and a function of the fact that each rod/cone in our retinas have a recharge time after being struck by a photon of light. TL;DR is that a photon hits the retina and the oversimplified version is that protein chains get broken to generate the signal to your brain then rapidly reassembled by enzyme molecules before they're ready for the next photon:

View attachment 346406

This cycle is your eyeball's framerate, but it's not quite that simple; There are thousands of these molecules performing this cycle in each rod/cone of your eye and you have a hundred million rods+cones in each eye. THEY ARE NOT SYNCED, so your eyes have a near-infinite framerate as billions of these individual proteins all run through this cycle out of phase and at any instant in time, some of them will be ready to accept incoming photons.

The eyeball "framerate" is actually better described as the eyeball blind-time. After a photon comes in, that particular protein is out of action for a while, and the ion-charge signal it's sending to your brain is "on" for most of that time. Strobing lights like CRTs, PWM backlight dimming, and old reel-to-reel cinema projectors all had dark gaps between frames that our eyes can't see, because they're blind after seeing a flash. Their temporal resolution is the time it takes for 4 of the 5 stages in that rhodopsin cycle diagram above, and for most of that cycle they are transmitting an "on" signal even if no light is hitting the retina during that point. If you see a flash of light that's only 100µs long, your retina will detect that flash but it can't tell you that it's only 100µs long, it will transmit the "hey, it's light!" signal to your brain for the entire duration of the rhodopsin cycle which is far longer, measured in multiple ms rather than µs.

Clearly, the duration of the rhodopsin cycle is different for different people. It might be that different people have different physical length of rhodopsin chains in their cells, it might be something else like the rhodopsin/enzyme ratio. I don't know - at this point I'm guessing because I've not read any studies of this; If one such study exists, I haven't stumbled upon it yet. All we know from empirical data is that the cycle time is 13-17ms for most people. It'll be one of those standard deviation bell-curves where ~70% of the population are in that 13-17ms region, with a few outliers.

So this 13-17ms cycle time is the maximum amount of time a light source can go dark before our eyes will be able to sense that. If a light is cycling faster than every 13-17ms, your eye is transmitting signals to your brain indicating that the light is permanently on, with no gaps.
  • CRT's are almost entirely dark. The half-life of a lit phosphor dot is about 200µs. After 0.5ms it's already dim enough to not consider 'lit', so at 75Hz, a CRT is dark for 12ms+ between frames

  • Older cinema projectors such as 35mm film had a mechanical shutter that was closed, blocking light for about one-third of the cycle during which the film would be moved onto the next frame. Yes, the framerate of the reel was 24fps (a new image every 42ms) but the dark period between each frame was only ~14ms, similar duration to the perceived flicker of a 60-70Hz CRT, which feels about right.

  • PWM backlight flicker from LCDs are an interesting case, and this is where I'm starting to guess/hypothesise again: When I said the individual rhodopsin reactions in your eye are not synced, I meant that your eye has no biological mechanism to keep them in sync, but that doesn't mean they can't be synced by external stimuli. A light source cycling on and off will 'blind' all billion+ cells in your eye at once, and they'll all complete their rhodopsin cycle at about the same time some 13-17ms later. If that period where they all those proteins come back online again happens to fall at the start of one of the PWM-pulsed "off" cycles and it's a slower 200-1000Hz PWM, you might notice it. It also explains why people who perceive PWM backlight flicker explain that adjusting the brightness up or down slightly eliminates the flicker. It's still flickering but my guess is that changing this duration of the PWM's pulse brings a lit part of the PWM cycle into the overlap with the eye's rhodopsin cycle.
So all of the above is about the cycling light sources like CRTs, cinema reel projectors, PWM-flicker. For constant light sources such as LCD/OELD displays, you don't get this external frequency putting all of your retina into a synced rhodopsin cycle, and your eyeball's framerate is basically infinite again. That's where the brain comes in and perceived framerate is a function of how fast your visual cortex can resolve changes before it all becomes a blur. The mechanics of the eye are different to the mechanics of the brain. Unlike your brain, your eye cannot handle a sequence of flashes if there's less than 13-17ms between them, yet you brain can handle visual changes faster. It can interpret complex sound waves at frequencies exceeding 10KHz, for example. The processing power is fast enough, we just don't fully understand it.

Oh yes I've misquoted, meant to explain that to freeagent but that's an awesome and concise explanation really. I think people are a bit too hung up on things that don't really factor into the equation though, just the latency reduction justifies HFRs for me.
 
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MIT did a study and it was around 70-75FPS I believe. PC gamer also tackled this topic around the same time. I wonder if the noticeable difference is what people perceive as smoother mouse movement at higher FPS? This area is not one I have much knowledge about.


Well bleach did technically cure this one guy of Covid 19 thanks to Trump. I mean sure you can argue about semantics and say it ended up killing the guy but still he no longer suffered from Covid!
The tracking of a cursor or a mouse pointer, or a whole image for that matter, does improve with increasing framerate and gives an obvious advantage.
But the inverse relationship between frequency and time means that there is diminishing return to increasing framerates.
 
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Back in the day, on 1.6 I used to have a shitty crt and then a shitty lcd (nightmare), both were 60hz and needed to unlock fps to actually play the game properly.
The inputlag was very noticeable if I just played at the monitor refresh rate, at the time my rig could push almost 200fps and that's how I played.

The relation of higher framerates reducing input lag even above the monitor refresh rate is a notion that some people also dont seem to understand.

The fact of the matter is, most people are wildly clueless about the topic. Some simply do not understand what's being discussed, others are trolls, others are happy with 60hz and won't go down the rabbit hole, others think they know something but its the dunning krugger effect in action and others simply don't have the hardware to run high refresh rates.

This shouldn't even be a topic of discussion in 2024.
 

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It's definitely possible to notice 60Hz stutter. If you quickly scroll left right across a screen at 60Hz versus 144Hz in an FPS, there is a visually quantifiable difference - at least there seems to be for many of us. However, the actual research on it is quite poor and it varies greatly. I bought a 4k 60Hz monitor but the motion blur/judder was a killer to me. I've got a 144Hz monitor (I run at 120fps mostly), but I can definitely see the difference at 60Hz. I'll play SP games at 60Hz, but if I'm tracking across the 32" screen, it's a bit janky. Higher Hz makes it smoother, no doubt. I'll not rteally notice it if I'm ambling about. Just rapid things.


As far as the discussion goes - stop being dicks about it. If you find a study that backs up your viewpoint, please post a link. But don't get personal.
 
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On LCDs, I notice the flickering difference between 60/75/120/144Hz with moving objects, like wiggling the mouse cursor, and turning my camera in games. The worst is when it switches to the lower Hz without knowing it happened, like when a game switches to 60Hz in fullscreen. I think the game is stuttering. I noticed this 20 years ago with a crappy 60Hz monitor, overclocked to 75Hz. When it would drop 60Hz, I noticed a slight flicker. Thing is, I didn't notice the flicker until after getting used to the 75Hz. Now I experience the same thing going from 144Hz to 120Hz, and lower than that just looks broken. Guess it's more about what you're used to rather than human limits, at least at current common refresh rates.

I had one instance where the higher Hz looked wrong. It was when Youtube introduced 60fps video support. I was playing an older version of Minecraft, but watched some Let's Plays on the newer version. The newer version had smoother animations. That combined with the 60fps video made the game look disturbingly too smooth, like it was a custom render rather than the real game, because I was used to the older janky animations. Because of this experience, I can understand some people not liking higher Hz if they're used to the lower Hz. Similarly, I understood why some people didn't like the higher fps of the LOTR.

But, there are people out there who either have phsyical limits, or are too arogant to agree there's a noticeable difference between lower and higher hz/fps. I remember someone claiming 10-15fps was fine in a competitive shooter. They saw nothing wrong with the fact that the average player was shooting at them, and then receiving the shot confirmation from the server, before they saw the next frame on their end.
 
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Continued arguing after mod reminder in-thread
Back in the day, on 1.6 I used to have a shitty crt and then a shitty lcd (nightmare), both were 60hz and needed to unlock fps to actually play the game properly.
The inputlag was very noticeable if I just played at the monitor refresh rate, at the time my rig could push almost 200fps and that's how I played.

The relation of higher framerates reducing input lag even above the monitor refresh rate is a notion that some people also dont seem to understand.

The fact of the matter is, most people are wildly clueless about the topic. Some simply do not understand what's being discussed, others trolls, others are happy with 60hz and won't go down the rabbit hole, others think they know something but its the dunning krugger effect in action and others simply don't have the hardware to run high refresh rates.

This shouldn't even be a topic of discussion in 2024.

Honestly, you seem like the clueless one here.

The 60 hz experience you had 20 years ago is in no way comparable to what it's like today. Gsync and reflex drastically changes the fluidity and input latency, even at 60 hz.
 
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