Monday, September 21st 2009

European Commission Publishes Decision Concerning Intel's Abuse of Dominant Position

The European Commission has today published a non-confidential version of its Intel Decision, adopted on 13 May 2009 ( IP/09/745 and MEMO/09/235 ), together with a summary of the key elements of the Decision. That Decision found that Intel broke EC Treaty antitrust rules (Article 82) by engaging in two types of illegal practice to exclude competitors from the market for computer chips called x86 central processing units (CPUs). These practices harmed consumers throughout the EEA. By undermining its competitors' ability to compete on the merits of their products, Intel's actions undermined competition, reduced consumer choice and hindered innovation. On the basis of a significant amount of contemporaneous evidence and company statements, the Decision demonstrates how Intel broke the law.

Intel abused its dominant position in the x86 CPU market by implementing a series of conditional rebates to computer manufacturers and to a European retailer and by taking other measures aimed at preventing or delaying the launch of computers based on competing products (so-called 'naked restrictions'). The Commission's Decision outlines specific cases of these conditional rebates and naked restrictions, as well as how Intel sought to conceal its practices and how computer manufacturers and Intel itself recognised the growing threat represented by the products of Intel's main competitor, AMD.

Conditional Rebates

The conditional rebates were as follows:
  • Intel rebates to Dell from December 2002 to December 2005 were conditioned on Dell purchasing exclusively Intel CPUs. For example, in an internal Dell presentation of February 2003, Dell noted that should Dell switch any part of its CPU supplies from Intel to its competitor AMD, Intel retaliation " could be severe and prolonged with impact to all LOBs [Lines of Business]." In a February 2004 e-mail on the consequences of the possible purchase by Dell of AMD CPUs, a Dell executive wrote: " Boss, here's an outline of the framework we discussed with Intel. (…) Intel is ready to send [Intel Senior executive] /[Intel executive] /[Intel executive] to meet with [Dell Senior Executive]/[Dell Senior Executive]/[Dell Executive] . (...) Background: [Intel Senior executive] /[Intel Senior executive] are prepared for [all-out war] 1 if Dell joins the AMD exodus. We get ZERO MCP [name of Intel rebate to Dell] for at least one quarter while Intel 'investigates the details' (...) We'll also have to bite and scratch to even hold 50%, including a commitment to NOT ship in Corporate. If we go in Opti [Dell product series for corporate customers] , they cut it to <20% and use the added MCP to compete against us. ".
  • Intel rebates to HP from November 2002 to May 2005 were conditioned in particular on HP purchasing no less than 95% of its CPU needs for business desktops from Intel (the remaining 5% that HP could purchase from AMD was then subject to further restrictive conditions set out below). In this regard, in a submission to the Commission, HP stated that " Intel granted the credits subject to the following unwritten requirements: a) that HP should purchase at least 95% of its business desktop system from Intel …". By way of example, in an e-mail written in July 2002 during the negotiation of the rebate agreement between HP and Intel, an HP executive wrote: "" PLEASE DO NOT… communicate to the regions, your team members or AMD that we are constrained to 5% AMD by pursuing the Intel agreement".
  • Intel rebates to NEC during the period ranging from October 2002 to November 2005 were conditioned on NEC purchasing no less than 80% of its CPU needs for its desktop and notebook segments from Intel. For example, in a May 2002 e-mail (when the arrangement was concluded), an NEC executive specified that " NEC will (...) increase [worldwide] Intel market share from [...] % to 80%. Intel will give NEC [support] and aggressive [...] price.".
  • Intel rebates to Lenovo during year 2007 were conditioned on Lenovo purchasing its CPU needs for its notebook segment exclusively from Intel. For example, in a December 2006 e-mail, a Lenovo executive stated: " Late last week Lenovo cut a lucrative deal with Intel. As a result of this, we will not be introducing AMD based products in 2007 for our Notebook products".
  • Intel payments to Media Saturn Holding (MSH), Europe's largest PC retailer, were conditioned on MSH selling exclusively Intel-based PCs from October 2002 to December 2007. For example, in a submission to the Commission, MSH stated: " It was clear to MSH in this regard that the sale of AMD-equipped computers would result at least in a reduction of the amount of Intel's contribution payments per Intel CPU under the contribution agreements (and thus in a reduction of the total payments received from Intel, even if the total volume of Intel-CPUs sold by MSH would have remained the same as in previous periods), although MSH never actually tested the issue with Intel.".
Naked restrictions

The naked restrictions uncovered by the Commission were as follows:
  • Between November 2002 and May 2005, Intel payments to HP were conditioned on HP selling AMD-based business desktops only to small and medium enterprises, only via direct distribution channels (rather than distributors), and on HP postponing the launch of its first AMD-based business desktop in Europe by 6 months. For example, in an internal September 2004 HP e-mail, an HP executive stated: " You can NOT use the commercial AMD line in the channel in any country, it must be done direct. If you do and we get caught (and we will) the Intel moneys (each month) is gone (they would terminate the deal). The risk is too high ".
  • Intel payments to Acer were conditioned on Acer postponing the launch of an AMD-based notebook from September 2003 to January 2004. For example, in a September 2003 email, an Intel executive reported: "good news just came from [Acer Senior Executive] that Acer decides to drop AMD K8 [notebook product] throughout 2003 around the world. We've been talking with them all the way up to [Intel senior executive] 's […] level recently including [Intel executive] , [Intel senior executive] … and [Intel executive]… . They keep pushing back until today, after the call with [Intel executive] this morning, [Acer Senior Executive] just confirmed that they decide to drop AMD K8 throughout 2003 around the world. [Acer Senior Executive] has got this direction from [Acer Senior Executive] as well and will follow through in EMEA [Europe Middle East and Africa region]".
  • Intel payments to Lenovo were linked to or conditioned on Lenovo postponing the launch of AMD-based notebooks from June 2006 to the end of 2006. For example, in a June 2006 e-mail, a Lenovo executive reported that: "[two Lenovo executives] had a dinner with [an Intel executive] tonight (…). […] When we asked Intel what level of support we will get on NB [notebook] in next quarter, [he] told us (…) the deal is base[d] [sic] on our assumption to not launch AMD NB [notebook] platform. (…) Intel deal will not allow us to launch AMD".
Concealment

The Commission found that Intel generally sought to conceal the conditions in its arrangements with PC manufacturers and MSH. For example:
  • The rebate arrangement with Dell was not subject to a written agreement but was concluded orally at various meetings. In this regard for example, in a submission to the Commission, Dell stated that " there is no written agreement between Intel and Dell concerning the MCP [rebate] discount, rather, the discount is the subject of constant oral negotiations and agreement".
  • There was a written agreement with HP but the relevant conditions remained unwritten. In this regard for example, in a submission to the Commission, HP stated that the " unwritten conditions (...) were stated to be part of the HPA1 agreement by [Intel executive] , [Intel executive] and [Intel senior executive] in meetings with HP during the negotiations;
  • The written agreement with MSH contained a provision that the deal was non-exclusive. However, the evidence demonstrates that at Intel's request, the arrangement was in fact exclusive. In this regard for example, in a submission to the Commission, MSH stated that " It was clear to MSH that despite the non-exclusivity clause the exclusive nature of the relationship remained, for Intel, an essential element of the relationship between Intel and MSH. In fact, [MSH executive] recalls that Intel representatives made it clear to him that the changes in the wording of the agreement had been requested by Intel's legal department, but that in reality the relationship was to continue as before, including the requirement that MSH sell essentially only Intel-based computers."
Other statements from computer manufacturers and MSH outline how the various Intel conditions were an important factor in their decisions not to partially switch to or buy more x86 CPUs from AMD, Intel's main competitor in the x86 CPU market. For instance, in a submission to the Commission, HP stated that it " can confirm that Intel's inducements (in particular the block rebates) were a material factor in determining HP's agreement to the unwritten conditions. As a result (...) HP [Business desktop PC division] stayed at least 95% aligned to Intel."

AMD's growing threat
The evidence in the Decision indicates the growing threat that AMD's products represented to Intel, and that Intel's customers were actively considering switching part of their x86 CPU supplies to AMD. For example, in an October 2004 e-mail from Dell to Intel, a Dell executive stated that " AMD is a great threat to our business. Intel is increasingly uncompetitive to AMD which results in Dell being uncompetitive to [Dell competitors] . We have slower, hotter products that cost more across the board in the enterprise with no hope of closing the performance gap for 1-2 years." In a submission to the Commission, Dell also stated that as regards Opteron, " in Dell's perception this CPU generally performed approximately […] better than the comparable Intel Xeon CPU at the time." As regards AMD's Athlon PC CPU, an internal HP presentation from 2002 stated that it " had a unique architecture", was " more efficient on many tasks" , and had been " CPU of [the] year [for] 3 consecutive years".

The fact that AMD had improved its products is also recognised by Intel itself. For example, in a 2005 submission to the Commission, Intel stated that " AMD improved its product offerings dramatically with the introduction of its successful Opteron processor". This is also confirmed by contemporaneous documents from Intel. For example, in a 2004 internal Intel e-mail, it is stated that " Opteron is real threat today… Opteron-based single WS [Workstation] benchmarks beat [Intel's] Xeon in all cases."

Procedure
Before the Commission adopted its final Decision, it carried out a comprehensive investigation of the facts. During the proceedings Intel was able to comment fully on all the Commission's evidence outlined in the Decision. Indeed, the Commission went beyond its legal obligations in safeguarding Intel's rights of defence. For example, despite the fact that Intel chose not to reply to the Commission's supplementary Statement of Objections (see MEMO/08/517 ) by the extended deadline of 17 October 2008 but instead sought to suspend the Commission's case, the Commission took full account of Intel's belated written submissions relating to the supplementary Statement of Objections.

The full text of the decision, together with a summary, is now available on the Europa website here.
Source: Europa
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182 Comments on European Commission Publishes Decision Concerning Intel's Abuse of Dominant Position

#126
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
BenetanegiaFirst of all, the EU can't do anything like that, because it's an american company and thus the EU can't intervene. And second those actions don't change anything for future actions and don't punish the actions nor pose an exemplary punishment.
The EU could restrict how many units Intel sells for x number of years in EU member states. It not only reduces Intel's bottomline but gives AMD and Via an open door to walk through.
Posted on Reply
#127
Benetanegia
FordGT90ConceptIt's asinine to believe this ruling wasn't made with greed at its core.
No, what it's stupid is to believe that so many companies that rely on Intel (HP, Dell...) would risk their bussiness relations worth much much more than $1 bllion to get... what exactly? A chunk of the billion the EU is taking from Intel and that is pocket change in comparison to their annual revenue? A reduction in taxes which is an even smaller ammount of money and definately smaller than the money they can get by being friendly with Intel? Enlighten us, because I think that no one except you was able to see what are those companies getting from this.
FordGT90ConceptThe EU could restrict how many units Intel sells for x number of years in EU member states. It not only reduces Intel's bottomline but gives AMD and Via an open door to walk through.
No they can't. A company can't be banned from selling their product unless there is a trully important reason to do that (health threat, patent isuues...). That definately goes against the free market and can't be done under those circumstances. AND again you forget that the EC is for the better of the consumer... taking Intel out of the european market is not better for the consumer.
Posted on Reply
#128
Sugarush
FordGT90ConceptSays the EU, South Korea, and that's about it. In both cases, the evidence is lacking.
You forgot Japan.

And yeah, the majority of the economically advanced countries found Intel guilty. So what...
FordGT90ConceptBy "evidence is lacking" I meant most of it is based on hearsay. There's a lot of hearsay but little of it provides grounds for a $1+ billion fine; hence, evidence of wrong-doing is lacking.
I've said this in a different thread before: Don't you think Intel would've gone for the "Hearsay" defence if it really had been the case?

First you were saying there is no proof, now that there is proof, you are arguing that it is made up.

And should Intel admit that they did it, you'd probably say: They're doing it to get over with the whole legal issue, not because they're guilty.
FordGT90ConceptIndeed, however, I can't name one US Anti-trust lawsuit that amounted to extortion like this. You have Microsoft getting pinned with anti-trust which basically just required a 3rd party to review their source code for anti-competitive behavior to Standard Oil which got broken into dozens of smaller, regional corporations. I can't name one time USA collected a fine under anti-trust law. Again, highly suspicious.
You're arguing against the verdict because you don't agree with the penalty.

You should stick to the case itself.
Posted on Reply
#129
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
BenetanegiaNo they can't. A company can't be banned from selling their product unless there is a trully important reason to do that (health threat, patent isuues...). That definately goes against the free market and can't be done under those circumstances. AND again you forget that the EC is for the better of the consumer... taking Intel out of the european market is not better for the consumer.
Not "selling," importing and producing. I thought anti-trust was a qualifier for "truly important."

EU isn't a free market. "Health threat," "patent issue" = regulation != free.

And Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't democratic, of the people's will, nor a republic. "We fight for the consumer" is a good banner to stick on promo videos but, there's no fact to it. The money is going to "pay for member state dues." I highly doubt the member state dues will drop said amount because of this lawsuit. In fact, they'll probably go up for God knows what is on their agenda. They're all the same: crooked.


Whatever. This thread has been a repeat of the two or three that came before it. Nothing has changed, nothing will change.
Posted on Reply
#130
Benetanegia
FordGT90ConceptNot "selling," importing and producing. I thought anti-trust was a qualifier for "truly important."
It's the same, both actions prevent customers from being free to product election. As much as you think the EU has the power (or the intention) to regulate companies bussinesses at will, that's not the case. Sorry, but you are talking from total darkness on this issue. Basically and colloquially speaking, you have no clue about what you are talking.
EU isn't a free market. "Health threat," "patent issue" = regulation != free.
Wait... so the governments (creating laws) and the judges (applying them) shouldn't prevent a company from selling products that are a threat to the public health? Basically they should watch from the outside and let them kill loads of people, just so the utopian view of no intervention is fullfilled.

We should make patent infringement legal too?

Yeah I think we should do that. Maybe we can tell the police not to intervene until the crime has been made while we are at it. In the end how do you know he was going to kill that woman, he was just aiming a pistol at her, while shouting "I'll kill you, bitch!". But we know his real intentions? No. So?

But bottom line is that the EU market is much more free than the US market, simply because there are regulations (that are taken to it's maximum consequences) that prevent the abuse of bigger comapanies and that gives smaller competitors the ability to freely market their products. AMD was not free to market their products following the offer/demand rules, customers were not free to choose. It's an issue of numbers, you punish one missbehaving company to prevent it from spoiling the market for the others.

If parents don't put rules and tell their children "you have freedom to do what you want", the kids will never be free to do what they want, because the bigger one will always "enslave" the smaller ones. You need rules to prevent that from happening.
Posted on Reply
#132
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
BenetanegiaIt's the same, both actions prevent customers from being free to product election.
Anti-trust is, by nature, anti-consumer and pro-business. The competition which stems from pro-business is pro-consumer (reduced prices). Intel got their monopoly by consumers electing for their product. Anti-trust law uses that process against them saying too many people like your product and you used that popularity against someone else in an unlawful way.
BenetanegiaAs much as you think the EU has the power (or the intention) to regulate companies bussinesses at will, that's not the case. Sorry, but you are talking from total darkness on this issue. Basically and colloquially speaking, you have no clue about what you are talking.
If the EU doesn't have the power to restrict trade, it doesn't have the power to enforce a fine.
BenetanegiaWait... so the governments (creating laws) and the judges (applying them) shouldn't prevent a company from selling products that are a threat to the public health?

...
It's sementics. "Free market" by definition, means no regulation or intervention except in fraud and antitrust. As I said, I can't name one free market because all markets have regulations.
Posted on Reply
#133
mdm-adph
TheMailMan78Will an EU decision supporter please answer my questions without any damn spin?

forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=1562152&postcount=67
Well, I don't really count, but I'll try just for fun. :laugh:
TheMailMan78Jumping in the fray.......

1. They were convicted on hearsay. Where is the proof?

2. Everyone names Intel as the aggressor. However OEMs benefited from these backdoor dealings also. Why didn't the EU go after them? Maybe because they needed some "hearsay" in court?
Think not? Then why didn't these OEMs go to the authorities back then?

3. Where is this fine going? Are members of the EUs population going to get a tax break? Is AMD going to get a little slice of the Intel pie for a few years to come? Hmmmm who gets this money? Not the people it allegedly effected thats for sure.

Really this is theft disguised as justice.
I'll try, just for fun:

1) This is civil court -- not criminal court. I imagine the laws are similiar in the EU as they are in the US -- the burden of proof is far different in civil court; you don't need to prove guilt to the same degree. Obviously, the judge in the case felt that the evidence found against Intel was sufficient.

Argue the merits of the case if you want, but don't say there isn't any "proof" -- it's unrealistic, and doesn't help either side of the case. EDIT: Just noticed, like btarunr said, you don't need an affidavit signed by a murderer to prove it happened. :laugh:

2) Did OEM's really "benefit," especially since Intel, with their exclusive deals, could control the price without the influence of the free market?

Intel's processors were slower and hotter. I imagine just the extra cooling requirements needed to make their computers run cool and efficiently would've cut into the OEM profits a bit. :laugh:

3) The fine is going where all government goes, in any government -- into the coffers. It will be used to pay for government programs and help the people. No, AMD is not going to get any of the money. Please don't act like you don't know how government works.

And "theft" is relative to who's doing the taking, and who's giving up. Wasn't Robin Hood technically a "thief," too?
Posted on Reply
#134
Benetanegia
FordGT90ConceptAnti-trust is, by nature, anti-consumer and pro-business. The competition which stems from pro-business is pro-consumer (reduced prices). Intel got their monopoly by consumers electing for their product. Anti-trust law uses that process against them saying too many people like your product and you used that popularity against someone else in an unlawful way.
It's debatable if Intel trully reached that market share by it's own merits, considering what they did to mantain it.
If the EU doesn't have the power to restrict trade, it doesn't have the power to enforce a fine.
The EU does have the power, should they want to break the laws that form the spinal cord of our government. Our law system is made so no party, no body, no person has power beyond what the law gave them. Can the US trully say the same. I doubt it.
It's sementics. "Free market" by definition, means no regulation or intervention except in fraud and antitrust. As I said, I can't name one free market because all markets have regulations.
You said it all. No need to argue. Except in fraud and antitrust, the EU doesn't intervene in companies bussiness at all.
Posted on Reply
#135
TheMailMan78
Big Member
mdm-adphWell, I don't really count, but I'll try just for fun. :laugh:
I said a supporter of the decision. Not a member of the EU.
mdm-adphI'll try, just for fun:

1) This is civil court -- not criminal court. I imagine the laws are similiar in the EU as they are in the US -- the burden of proof is far different in civil court; you don't need to prove guilt to the same degree. Obviously, the judge in the case felt that the evidence found against Intel was sufficient.

Argue the merits of the case if you want, but don't say there isn't any "proof" -- it's unrealistic, and doesn't help either side of the case. EDIT: Just noticed, like btarunr said, you don't need an affidavit signed by a murderer to prove it happened. :laugh:

2) Did OEM's really "benefit," especially since Intel, with their exclusive deals, could control the price without the influence of the free market?

Intel's processors were slower and hotter. I imagine just the extra cooling requirements needed to make their computers run cool and efficiently would've cut into the OEM profits a bit. :laugh:

3) The fine is going where all government goes, in any government -- into the coffers. It will be used to pay for government programs and help the people. No, AMD is not going to get any of the money. Please don't act like you don't know how government works.

And "theft" is relative to who's doing the taking, and who's giving up. Wasn't Robin Hood technically a "thief," too?
1. Wheres the body should be the question then?

2. If they didn't benefit then a simple phone call to the FBI would have been a LOT cheaper. Prostitutes make money for a pimp do they not?

3. Here lies the problem. I do know how government works. This is why I call BS on the ruling.

4. Robin Hood isn't real.
Posted on Reply
#136
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
BenetanegiaYou said it all. No need to argue. Except in fraud and antitrust, the EU doesn't intervene in companies bussiness at all.
A fine is intervention. I see no anti-trust here, again, the proof is AMD and Via (the only two competing x86 license holders) are alive and well. If there is grounds for anti-trust, there is no hiding it.
Posted on Reply
#137
WhiteLotus
TheMailMan78Jumping in the fray.......

1. They were convicted on hearsay. Where is the proof?

2. Everyone names Intel as the aggressor. However OEMs benefited from these backdoor dealings also. Why didn't the EU go after them? Maybe because they needed some "hearsay" in court?
Think not? Then why didn't these OEMs go to the authorities back then?

3. Where is this fine going? Are members of the EUs population going to get a tax break? Is AMD going to get a little slice of the Intel pie for a few years to come? Hmmmm who gets this money? Not the people it allegedly effected thats for sure.

Really this is theft disguised as justice.
Not really an EU supported (the fine was absurdly large and unjust, but if they did wrong they did wrong) however:

1) If it was ALL based on hearsay the judge would have laughed the case out of court and Intel lawyers would have had a nice party - this did not happen. Thus they must have had some kind of proof, who knows where or what but it has to exist somewhere.

2) You are quite right in this statement - only thing i can suggest is that the OEMs benefitted or else intel would cut their dealings? maybe Who knows, we are mere mortals in this.

3)Tax break... EU population... :laugh::roll::laugh:
Posted on Reply
#138
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
WhiteLotus1) If it was ALL based on hearsay the judge would have laughed the case out of court and Intel lawyers would have had a nice party - this did not happen. Thus they must have had some kind of proof, who knows where or what but it has to exist somewhere.
Is this not the same judge that accused (and fined) Microsoft for bundling a browser and media player when almost all other OSs do the same? History repeats.

I'm just waiting for the EU to find out how much money the oil industry is sitting on. They'll milk that cash cow until it dies.


Another important question: Has the EU ever sided with, or lost to, the defendant of an anti-trust lawsuit?


Edit: I answer my own question: www.crn.com/it-channel/18829279;jsessionid=O4BKCVQFWQ1PPQE1GHOSKHWATMY32JVN
In the third defeat this year -- and second in a week -- for the European Commission, a European court ruled that regulators erred in blocking Swiss-based Tetra Laval Group's attempt to create a drinks-packaging giant last year by buying French bottling company Sidel SA for $1.66 billion.

The Luxembourg-based Court of First Instance said the Commission provided insufficient evidence and overestimated the merger's anticompetitive effects.

On Tuesday, the same court annulled the Commission's decision to block a merger between two French electrical equipment makers. It also overturned the rejection in June of a merger of two British travel companies.

Each time, the court chastised the Commission's merger task force for poor casework.
Unsurpisingly, their defeats were with companies in EU member states. The bias is blindingly obvious.
Posted on Reply
#139
mdm-adph
TheMailMan78I said a supporter of the decision. Not a member of the EU.

1. Wheres the body should be the question then?

2. If they didn't benefit then a simple phone call to the FBI would have been a LOT cheaper. Prostitutes make money for a pimp do they not?

3. Here lies the problem. I do know how government works. This is why I call BS on the ruling.

4. Robin Hood isn't real.
1) Irrelevant. You don't even need a body in an actual murder trial.

2) They had responsibilities to their shareholders. You, of all people, should respect that. :laugh:

3) If you do, then you should know where the money's going.

4) You're a time traveler, too?
Posted on Reply
#140
Benetanegia
FordGT90ConceptA fine is intervention. I see no anti-trust here, again, the proof is AMD and Via (the only two competing x86 license holders) are alive and well. If there is grounds for anti-trust, there is no hiding it.
The fact that you don't see anti-trust here doesn't make it any less REAL. You'll have to get over it some day.
Posted on Reply
#141
WhiteLotus
FordGT90ConceptIs this not the same judge that accused (and fined) Microsoft for bundling a browser and media player when almost all other OSs do the same? History repeats.

I'm just waiting for the EU to find out how much money the oil industry is sitting on. They'll milk that cash cow until it dies.
They would, the EU is stupidly difficult to control. Dozens of countries, all with very different laws with only one "governing" body i.e. the EU. It's just not right. The EU is a very grey subject for me, some of what they do is awesome other things they do is out right laughable. This is because one thing they do to France (for example) they have to do to every country. It's just silly.

As for oil, they will probably sue BP for pollution or something.

The money will most likely go to the poorer countries to kick start their economy.

damn you and your editing Ford:

Yes the EU is bias to the EU. Just like the USA is bias to the USA (they tax imports do they not, always encouraged to buy American) Each country looks after it's own.
Posted on Reply
#142
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
WhiteLotusthey tax imports do they not, always encouraged to buy American
I wish they would. Tariffs are damn near dead and it's killing the manufacturing segments of the country (e.g. Detroit at > 20% unemployment). The government is doing next to nothing to encourage consumers to buy American.
Posted on Reply
#143
WhiteLotus
FordGT90ConceptI wish they would. Tariffs are damn near dead and it's killing the manufacturing segments of the country (e.g. Detroit at > 20% unemployment). The government is doing next to nothing to encourage consumers to buy American.
Well i know they used to, still the concept applies. Each country looks after it's own.
Posted on Reply
#144
mdm-adph
FordGT90ConceptI wish they would. Tariffs are damn near dead and it's killing the manufacturing segments of the country (e.g. Detroit at > 20% unemployment). The government is doing next to nothing to encourage consumers to buy American.
Why should they? The US economy depends on consumers buying cheap crap from China, so China will keep buying US debt. :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#145
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Again, I hear "Lost My America" by I Mother Earth playing in my mind. :(


Anywho, I disagree with their decision (I see nothing that even warrants filing an anti-trust lawsuit, nevermind taking it to court) and their fine (completely unwarranted).
Posted on Reply
#146
Benetanegia
FordGT90ConceptThe government is doing next to nothing to encourage consumers to buy American.
Your bias and overall confusion within the boundaries of your own head is evident. Why in hell should the US government be involved in that at all?? You said earlier that the goverment shouldn't be involved in bussiness... I call BS on everything you said, you can't even make up your mind.
TheMailMan781. Wheres the body should be the question then?

2. If they didn't benefit then a simple phone call to the FBI would have been a LOT cheaper. Prostitutes make money for a pimp do they not?

3. Here lies the problem. I do know how government works. This is why I call BS on the ruling.

4. Robin Hood isn't real.
1. You don't need a body.

2. Yeah. Someone under coercion does benefit from doing what they are told to do. That doesn't mean their situation wouldn't be much better if coercion didn't exist to begin with. For example, someone with a gun on his head does benefit from giving all his money, he lives, but he would be much better if he could just go away with his money. The fact that Intel used market dominance as the weapon and not an actual weapon, changes nothing. Anti-trust laws were made exactly for that.

3. "Thinks the thief that everyone is of his own nature."
Posted on Reply
#147
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Wow, the flames. :shadedshu

I said free market, by definition, means very limited government involvement. I said nothing on that subject of my personal beliefs.
Posted on Reply
#148
TheMailMan78
Big Member
BenetanegiaYour bias and overall confusion within the boundaries of your own head is evident. Why in hell should the US government be involved in that at all?? You said earlier that the goverment shouldn't be involved in bussiness... I call BS on everything you said, you can't even make up your mind.



1. You don't need a body.

2. Yeah. Someone under coercion does benefit from doing what they are told to do. That doesn't mean their situation wouldn't be much better if coercion didn't exist to begin with. For example, someone with a gun on his head does benefit from giving all his money, he lives, but he would be much better if he could just go away with his money. The fact that Intel used market dominance as the weapon and not an actual weapon, changes nothing. Anti-trust laws were made exactly for that.

3. "Thinks the thief that everyone is of his own nature."
1. Yeah you need evidence of a murder. In this case all you have is a bunch of witnesses who stand to benefit if a "murderer" is fined. As you can see the point I am trying to make is there are no rules in love, war, or business. I do not know if Intel broke the law. All I am saying is this whole thing seems very fishy and the size of the fine and its circumstances solidify that. You guys are so thirsty to assume guilt on Intels part you do not question the accusations or its benefactors. This sounds to me like abuse of a judicial system for profit.

2. If they benefit then its not blackmail. Its a contract. OEM's made good money off of this. They are just as much at guilt. To use the murder analogy that you guys are so fond of the OEM's were accessories to the murder. Why are they not fined? What do they get out of this deal? If the EU wanted to they could charge the OEM's with industrial espionage. After all they knew it was against the law and they went along with it to get a good deal then flipped on Intel to get an ever better long term deal. They played Intel and the EU. WHY ARE THEY NOT CHARGED?! There is more proof of this than of any Intel wrong doing yet you still paint them as the victims.

3. I'm sorry but I have no clue what you mean by this. :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#149
WarEagleAU
Bird of Prey
You know Benet you need to back the hell off and quit getting so mad man, take it easy. Some people blindly follow things and companies (here here, I do with AMD Ill admit) but no reason to go on calling someone arrogant, stupid, etc (thats just a blanket statement, not saying you called someone stupid). Also, per your question, the US does have laws and measurements in place that prevent(s) one branch(es) from overstepping their authority. It is called the system of Checks and Balances. We can go on and on about this, but you get the idea. No government is perfect and we know this.

Fact is, Intel got caught by "means" and found guilty. OF course they are not happy with it and their supporters are not happy with it. Now I agree the huge fine is outrageous, but it was even more outrageous to prevent OEMs from buying or in delaying products that had AMD parts in them. That is the real crime. I don't know if that prevented AMD from gaining a bigger market share, but it did prevent others from trying them out. I also fault AMD for no advertising and not trying to one up Intel after they spanked them with the K8.
Posted on Reply
#150
TheMailMan78
Big Member
WarEagleAUYou know Benet you need to back the hell off and quit getting so mad man, take it easy. Some people blindly follow things and companies (here here, I do with AMD Ill admit) but no reason to go on calling someone arrogant, stupid, etc (thats just a blanket statement, not saying you called someone stupid). Also, per your question, the US does have laws and measurements in place that prevent(s) one branch(es) from overstepping their authority. It is called the system of Checks and Balances. We can go on and on about this, but you get the idea. No government is perfect and we know this.

Fact is, Intel got caught by "means" and found guilty. OF course they are not happy with it and their supporters are not happy with it. Now I agree the huge fine is outrageous, but it was even more outrageous to prevent OEMs from buying or in delaying products that had AMD parts in them. That is the real crime. I don't know if that prevented AMD from gaining a bigger market share, but it did prevent others from trying them out. I also fault AMD for no advertising and not trying to one up Intel after they spanked them with the K8.
He got banned before for this kinda crap.
Posted on Reply
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