Battery swap for cyberpower UPS

[jsfitz54]

It's not that I don't trust the brand, it definitely looks better than the dozens of potential fire hazards on Amazon. It's that the warranty sounds pretty worthless (or at least not worth more than anyone else's), it has the usual disclaimers for nonstandard use (UPS use? Not buying their "recommended" LiFePO4 charger?) and only manufacturer defects are warrantied (as expected). Add to that the price, and it seems more trouble than it's worth. Forgive me for being skeptical, I've just been burned too many times by warranty fine print.

Probably great for the outdoors purposes most of their products are advertised for, though.

There are also other components in the UPS that can get damaged and wear out before the 11 year warranty on the battery. If the UPS dies in 4 years, then what?

Edit: Over the years I've spent about $20 per battery plus shipping.

 

[chrcoluk]

Any place that sells car batteries will take them.

I cant take it anywhere, my comment was more along the lines of I cant just chuck it in the bin, they require safe disposal.

Some councils in the UK will pick up batteries but sadly mine doesnt. So for now I am stuck with it.

 

[R-T-B]

Shrek is right about lithium but they do tend to be expensive. So do your home to see if worth the up front cost.


Not really. This is because these batteries are very low tech items. There really is nothing special a brand with deep pockets can do a different brand on a budget can't - especially considering almost everything is from recycled stock and don't depend on some innovated design or technology.

So I go by today's price.

That said, Amazon sells a lot of MightyMax at a great price (if you qualify for free shipping) and so I have been buying a lot of MightyMax batteries over the last couple years. I cannot say they are better than the other brands. All I can say is I have seen no evidence they are of lower quality or that they will die before the others.

In other words, I have found they are all pretty much the same.

Same experience. I've been buying ExpertPower lately but only because they are cheapest in my region. Any supplier with recently manufactured stock should be fine (you don't need to worry too much, any battery less than like 10 months old should be fine even without a shelf maintenance charge).

 

[jsfitz54]

Same experience. I've been buying ExpertPower lately but only because they are cheapest in my region. Any supplier with recently manufactured stock should be fine (you don't need to worry too much, any battery less than like 10 months old should be fine even without a shelf maintenance charge).

I just looked at your recommendation and I see that the weight is listed as 5.5lbs.
The PowerSonic is 6lbs.

My assumption has always been that the heavier one will last last longer due to a longer chemical reaction based on more mass.

Anything wrong with that idea?

 

[R-T-B]

I just looked at your recommendation and I see that the weight is listed as 5.5lbs.
The PowerSonic is 6lbs.

My assumption has always been that the heavier one will last last longer due to a longer chemical reaction based on more mass.

Anything wrong with that idea?

Honestly, I have no idea how weight factors into it, so can't really comment there.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I see that the weight is listed as 5.5lbs.
The PowerSonic is 6lbs.

That could easily be a rounding up issue when posting the specs - perhaps because shippers always round up.

My assumption has always been that the heavier one will last last longer due to a longer chemical reaction based on more mass.

Nah! That's assuming WAY too much with WAY too little information. First, it assumes there really is a 1/2 lb weight difference. May not be. You also don't know if the extra weight is due to heavier plates or heavier casing or both. Since the process involves the surface area of the plates, heavier or lighter means nothing. And since some plastics can be lighter yet stronger than other plastics, that means nothing either.

Heavier, thus thicker plates may actually cause a shorter lifespan because one of the common causes for failure in these type batteries is due to internal shorts between the cells. Thinner (thus lighter) plates would have more space between them making it more difficult for a short to develop.

If there is any difference in longevity as a result of the weight, IMO, it is totally insignificant compared to the major factors that affect longevity. And those are as I mentioned above.

Typical SLA UPS batteries last 2 to 5 years. It varies greatly depending on (1) how often the UPS kicks over to battery output, (2) the load when on battery, and (3) how deep the discharge is when it is on battery. Ambient heat plays a role too but generally, if the room is at a comfortable temperature for us humans, and there is space around the UPS for ventilation, heat plays a less significant role.

***

As to that LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, I note it is designated as a "deep cycle" battery. Those type batteries are ideal for marine use and other scenarios where "deep cycles" are common. That is where they frequently are called upon to provide power for long periods of time (until nearly fully discharged) then fully charged again.

That is NOT typical UPS usage. Typical UPS usage involves first "rare" total power outages. And second, when there is a total outage, typically they need to provide power for only a few minutes - long enough to "gracefully" save your work and shut down the computer.

If your UPS usage is typical, then having a battery sits at or near full charge for years on end may result in it failing sooner than expected. I am just saying, do your homework.

 

[jsfitz54]

@Bill_Bright

I ordered a 4 pack of the MightyMax.

Amazon.com

Thanks for the info.

 

[Shrek]

As to that LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, I note it is designated as a "deep cycle" battery. Those type batteries are ideal for marine use and other scenarios where "deep cycles" are common. That is where they frequently are called upon to provide power for long periods of time (until nearly fully discharged) then fully charged again.

That is NOT typical UPS usage. Typical UPS usage involves first "rare" total power outages. And second, when there is a total outage, typically they need to provide power for only a few minutes - long enough to "gracefully" save your work and shut down the computer.

They are also not able to sustain large currents, although this seems to be improving; i.e. one would need to derate the UPS
Dakota Lithium 12v 10ah Battery | Dakota Lithium Batteries
20A max continuous; so maybe 200W a battery

Dakota batteries claim 'Twice the power of traditional batteries', but I think they are mixing up the concepts of energy and power.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I ordered a 4 pack of the MightyMax.

FWIW, I ordered that exact same 4-pack bundle last year to use in two UPS here! Of course 1 year is too soon to tell but for now, they are working fine. As are the other MightyMax cells I've purchased before.

Dakota batteries claim 'Twice the power of traditional batteries', but I think they are mixing up the concepts of energy and power.

No. They are not mixing concepts. They are employing deception and misinformation in their marketing lies... err... hype.

There aught to be a law banning ignorant and/or dishonest marketing weenies from talking.

Ohm's Law and it's power derivative are very clear.

Without getting into boring details about energy, watt hours or joules): P = IE (where P = power, I = current and E = voltage)

So their 12V 10Ah battery produces the same amount of power as any other 12V 10Ah battery, regardless the brand name printed on the battery or the chemistry used inside the battery.

As seen here, Dakota is being deceitful when they claim theirs has twice the power because they are comparing their 12V 10Ah battery with a 12V 8Ah battery (UB1280). They can't even do their math correctly because last I checked, 120 watts is not twice 96 watts.

 

[chrcoluk]

So with the lamps connected and a few other low powered things I couldnt be bothered to disconnect was 132W consumption.

It went from 100% down to around 5% in 4 minutes at which point I put mains power back on as I am not sure its a good idea to let these batteries run completely dry.

Contacted the company I purchased it from who passed me onto cyberpower, who I then contacted who passed me back to the retailer, fun times.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yeah, that is too quick. Good that it did hold that 4 minutes as that is still time to save a document you might be working on then gracefully shutdown without crashing. But it should have done much better.

Coincidentally, just this morning a large tree branch fell and took out the lines from the substation (according the power company) feeding my whole section of town - including City Hall and the Police and Fire Department headquarters. Of course, they fired up on generators but the rest of us were in the dark.

I typically get 30 plus minutes of battery runtime from my 1500VA APC UPS but it immediately yelled at me that I only had 5 minutes left. I was just finishing a long message so fortunately, had time to save it as draft, then exit and shut down before it cut power. I still was very unhappy because that took down my entire network too. Typically, if an outage and I quickly power off my monitors and computer, this UPS will keep my wireless network alive for well over two hours so I can at least use my laptop or tablet for Internet access or even streaming TV (my TV is on an UPS too! ).

I keep a spreadsheet tracking my batteries and saw I last replaced those in this UPS 4/21/2020 - a week shy of 4 years. So I guess it is that time again. Oh well. At least I don't need a new UPS. Sorry.

 

[cvaldes]

I typically get 30 plus minutes of battery runtime from my 1500VA APC UPS but it immediately yelled at me that I only had 5 minutes left. I was just finishing a long message so fortunately, had time to save it as draft, then exit and shut down before it cut power. I still was very unhappy because that took down my entire network too. Typically, if an outage and I quickly power off my monitors and computer, this UPS will keep my wireless network alive for well over two hours so I can at least use my laptop or tablet for Internet access or even streaming TV (my TV is on an UPS too! ).

I suggest you put your networking gear on a separate UPS as I do. My DSL modem/router plus a cordless telephone base station are on their own UPS, an inexpensive 550VA model that doesn't have any bells or whistles (including AVR). This UPS can probably keep my network powered for over 24 hours.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I suggest you put your networking gear on a separate UPS as I do

Thanks but no. It is best where I have it, on my big, higher-end 1500VA UPS. And I recommend you reconsider your choice of using an inexpensive UPS for your network gear.

First, it is important to note the primary purpose for having our computers and other sensitive electronics on a "good" UPS with AVR. And that is, first and foremost, the AVR (automatic voltage regulation) feature. It is the AVR feature that protects our devices from surges, spikes, dips, sags, and brownouts, as well as other voltage anomalies.

Backup power during a full power outage is only a minor, secondary or bonus feature.

And it is also important to note, as in nearly all industries, manufacturers tend to put more capable and higher quality components and features in their bigger (read: more expensive), upper-tier products, including UPS and those AVR circuits

Now for sure, putting our sensitive network gear on an inexpensive UPS is way better than on a surge and spike protector. So kudos to you for that. But I would much rather have my sensitive network gear on my high-end UPS - and recommend you do too.

Also, using a UPS on our computers is NOT so we can keep playing our games or continue to update our social networking profiles during a full power outage. The battery backup feature is to provide sufficient power long enough to allow us to finish our sentence, then gracefully save our open files, exit our open programs, then "gracefully" shutdown our computers and wait out the storm.

So if I am using my computer when the power goes out, that's exactly what I do - I save what I am doing, then shutdown my computer. This typically takes less than 5 minutes. That leaves the rest of the battery runtime to hold up the network.

If the computer is mission critical, or if we just want to keep playing our games, then get a backup generator! Then the UPS is there to provide power long enough for the generator to fire up, stabilize output, then cutover to generator power (which should take less than 2 minutes). Then all you have to do is keep the fuel tank full.

This UPS can probably keep my network powered for over 24 hours.

That would be a miracle if it did. Have you actually tested it? A typical integrated modem/wireless router can easily consume 20 to 40W or more. You might want to research the consumption of your devices.

In my case, my Nighthawk wireless router (~42W), Motorola cable modem (~18W), and an additional 1GHz 4-port Ethernet switch (~7.5W) together consume ~67.5W.

If you look at the specs for this CyberPower 550VA UPS, for example, it has the equivalent wattage capacity of ~330W. The math just doesn't add up for coming even close to 24 hours.

See for yourself.

Enter that UPS into CyberPower's runtime calculator. You can see the runtime is valued in minutes (not hours). And you can see where that 550VA UPS will only support 50W for just 44 minutes. Extrapolating out, even if your modem consumes a measly (and very unlikely) 10W, it would last less than 5 hours. But it is much more likely your DSL modem/router (especially if it provides wireless access too) consumes significantly more than 10W. Plus, you are powering a cordless phone base station too.

 

[cvaldes]

Nah, no spending excessive money on some 1500VA UPS for my networking gear. I will point out that YOU are the one whose network went down so whatever you are doing doesn’t seem to be best practice.

I have a decent 1500VA AVR UPSunit for my Mac mini (primary system) and mini PC.

I’ve been using inexpensive non-AVR UPSes for my home network gear for close to thirty years. It’s not a “professional“ solution but you have proven time after time that you simply don’t understand the shades of grey between various usage cases.

And by your own admission your own plan was flawed.

As for the gas generator another expense that is silly for a home user. Besides the HOA CC&Rs prohibit generators anyhow at my complex.

Enjoy UPS battery shopping though!

 

[Bill_Bright]

Nah, no spending excessive money on some 1500VA UPS for my networking gear.

I didn't say 1500VA "just" for my network gear. That would be overkill. I have this computer, both monitors, and my network gear on this 1500VA UPS.

I will point out that YOU are the one whose network went down so whatever you are doing doesn’t seem to be best practice.

And by your own admission your own plan was flawed.

Yeah right. It is not flawed. I just don't walk on water - apparently like you. Nor do I have unlimited resources.

Like EVERY backup power system ever made, mine has limits. And once those limits are reached, the lights go out. That is not a "flaw".

I live in a 60 year old house in Tornado Alley. The house that age is a factor because it means my power comes via drops from poles - susceptible to high winds and falling branches and trees. New homes are serviced by underground cables, safe from above ground threats.

In the 35 years I've lived here, there have been a dozen times when power was out for more than 24 hours and twice for more than 5 days (and my block was one of the lucky ones). Even my neighbor, who has a whole house back-up generator lost power after 4 days when his generator ran out of fuel and fallen trees blocked his street so he could not get more fuel.

I ran over with my 2 gallons I had for my lawn mower but that was about gone too. It would have become a life or death situation when the UPS supporting the life-support medical equipment his bedridden wife needed to survive ran out. Fortunately, grid power was restored before he needed to call 911.

As for the gas generator another expense that is silly for a home user.

but you have proven time after time that you simply don’t understand the shades of grey between various usage cases.

How sad you have such low self esteem you can't just debate facts, but have to degrade the thread with personal insults just to make yourself feel superior. I pity you.

You just there demonstrated it is you who doesn't understand shades of grey. For you, it only black (your way) or white (no way).

You not only think your scenario applies to everyone, but it is "silly" to think otherwise. That's simply narrow minded and naïve, if not total arrogance! Wow.

Another scenario is a neighbor with $1000s tied up aquarium fish. He has both fresh and salt water aquariums that must have air pumped in almost 24/7. They also must be in a climate controlled environment with near constant water temperatures provided by a room with AC in the summer and heat in the winter. The fish (and plants) also need so many hours of a special type of light every day. The filter MUST be able to filter out the waste or else the fish will end up poisoning themselves. Where is all the power required to do that coming from during an extended power outage, cvaldes? Huh? Never considered that, did you? Of course not. How "silly" of you!

And do you not understand that many food items in a refrigerator will stay safe for only 4 hours and only if the doors stay closed after a power outage? Or that food in a freezer 1/2 or more full will stay frozen for only 24 - 48 hours if the door stays closed? No? How silly of you.

Food in a freezer less than 1/2 full will begin to thaw in less than 24 hours. But of course, you don't have outages that long, so (black and white) no one does, right, cvaldes?

Power Outage? Here’s How Long Food Lasts in the Fridge and Freezer

8 expert tips to avoid getting sick from spoiled food when the lights go out

www.aarp.org

Important Things to Know About Food Safety Before, During, and After a Power Outage

If your power has been out for hours, here's what refrigerator and freezer foods you can keep and what you should throw out after power's restored.

www.bobvila.com

Stop being so naïve, cvaldes or so quick to criticize others before learning the facts. Or else you risk looking "silly", if not something else.

 

[chrcoluk]

Ok something new is happening.

Today I noticed the UPS clicking frequently when coming back from out somewhere, PC was in sleep and some network equipment on.

I turned on lights to see if would dim or go out, and they behaved normally, likewise kettle boiled fine, whilst UPS was sitting on battery.

After it was on mains for about 10 mins I woke PC up and was normal for about another 5-10 minutes, and then it clicked again, and is now staying in battery mode, but there is no power cut.

The other weird thing is the battery drain is now much slower. Which is good I suppose, but not good its switched ti battery whilst I still have power.

Any idea what might be wrong here?

Input voltage is now 252v and I see on my previous shots it was 248v, 252v as I understand it in the UK is just about ok but right on the edge.

Update - Power grid for the area has a logged open incident, but going to report the high voltage anyway as its now up to 253v, according to the nut software the high voltage trip point is 260v, but I might install the vendor software temporarily to see if that validates it, and apparently that can adjust it as well.

 

[Shrek]

CP1500EPFCLCD-UK - Backup UPS Systems | CyberPower

Input Voltage Range ( Vac )
170 ~ 270

so it should be OK with 252V

 

[Bill_Bright]

FWIW I just in the last couple weeks since my last post replaced the batteries in my APC UPS. I was disappointed to see I only had about 12 minutes run time on the new batteries. I replaced the old because they were down to barely 5 minutes. So, I thought my UPS was failing. But now, two weeks later, I am showing 55 minutes run time. Not sure what happened but it seems it took awhile for my UPS to sync up with the new batteries.

I am thinking I should have made sure the new batteries were fully charged, then unplugged from the wall and let them discharged completely for a couple charge/discharge cycles. I didn't have to do that last time I replaced the batteries about 4 years ago.

Check your manual for any sensitivity settings for your UPS. If your UPS is flipping to battery too often, this may be set too high - if your UPS has such settings.

 

[chrcoluk]

Wow grid rang me back quick, they sending someone out with a voltage recorder, they were very intrigued how I knew what the voltage was.

There is a power cut on 6 properties a few doors away, so that work might be causing spikes.

Bill there is a sensitivity option yeah that can be adjusted on the panel, its on the default normal/medium, the manual says dont set to low if using a PC though.

The batteries also definitely draining much closer to the estimated run time now, it initially went down to 96%, but then went back up to 99% whilst on battery. Then drained close to the predicted run time.

Hasnt tripped for a while thankfully, but some more national grid vans just rolled up, is 11 vans here now.

254v now, this is now out of range.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Keep us posted.

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

Just goes to show how different the UK power grid is, I am currently seeing 243 Volts on my UPS and at 250 Volts my eyebrows would be raised!

 

[Bill_Bright]

at 250 Volts my eyebrows would be raised!

They may raise, but technically, 250VAC is still within allowed tolerances.

The UK power regulatory agency (Ofgem - Office of Gas and Electricity Markets) permits -6% to +10% variance from the 230V standard. This gives an allowable range of 216VAC to 253VAC.

For an interesting read (for me anyway), and if you have a couple minutes to waste, the below is a true story about an event that happened to me where my UPS saved me potentially $1000s and the power company 10s of $1000s.

Back in May 2017, I came home about 9PM to hear all my UPSs beeping (I have a UPS on each computer, my home theater/TV system, even my garage door opener). Yet the house lights were still on! ???​

​

A quick check on the LCD status display panel of my UPS on this computer showed the incoming line voltage was 146VAC!!!! It should have been ~120VAC. Another quick check with my multimeter confirmed, 145.8VAC and the 220VAC outlet in the garage was showing 291.6VAC. Not good - especially for things like air conditioning and refrigerator compressors.​

​

I called the power company, told them I was a technician and what I had found, then told them if they didn't want to pay to replace all the air conditioners and refrigerators in this neighborhood, they needed to send someone out right away. And [happily], they did - like in 15 minutes! The electrician checked the power entering my meter and confirmed what I had reported. This also established the problem was not on my end, but with theirs - thus affecting at least every home supplied by the common transformer.​

​

They expedited a bucket truck out to check the transformer on the pole. They determined the transformer "tap" had failed. They had to kill power to the whole neighborhood and move the tap temporarily until they could replace the 30 year old transformer.​

​

They moved to a functional tap and the setting was still a little too "hot" at 258VAC (129VAC single phase). But at least that was a safe level and all the UPS (and I) were happy.​

​

About 2 weeks later they replaced the old transformer with a brand new one and now we are sitting at 120VAC. ​

​

Had I not had all those UPS alarms yelling at me, I probably would have fired up the computer and with the voltage being that hot, might have put too much strain on the PSU regulator circuits and allowed excessive voltages to be distributed to the various components.. This could have resulted in several unexplained failures of the electronics in my house (and all the neighbors' houses) too. The LCD panel made troubleshooting a snap. It also allowed me to easily explain to the power company trouble desk, in a convincing, believable manner, the urgency of the situation so they would send someone out so quickly.​

 

[chrcoluk]

The estimated fix time on national grid has slipped to 2AM (4 hours from now) for the 6 properties, earlier today before I was aware of issues it was over 150. Looks like the final 6 are troublesome, guessing thats why reinforcements arrived as well. These guys may or may not not have the voltage reader with them, as my issue is lower priority, I have borderline voltage not a power cut, I was given a 48h window where I will be contacted by a local engineer. I am hoping though of course once they resolve this power cut it ends up fixing my issue at the same time.

Voltage did drop to 251v suddenly a short time ago, but since then has been creeping up again and is currently 253v. Battery up to 97% charge.

--edit-- 254v out of spec again.

About 2 weeks later they replaced the old transformer with a brand new one and now we are sitting at 120VAC.

Wouldnt surprise me if its something like an ageing transformer, we do sweat our infrastructure here in the UK. Wiki and other sources I found also state the reason we set +10% is "legacy equipment".

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

They may raise, but technically, 250VAC is still within allowed tolerances.

The UK power regulatory agency (Ofgem - Office of Gas and Electricity Markets) permits -6% to +10% variance from the 230V standard. This gives an allowable range of 216VAC to 253VAC.

Yeah I know its "allowed" to get up to 253 but thats right at the limits and they National Grid dont like it being that high for a multitude of reasons.

Had I not had all those UPS alarms yelling at me, I probably would have fired up the computer and with the voltage being that hot, might have put too much strain on the PSU regulator circuits and allowed excessive voltages to be distributed to the various components.. This could have resulted in several unexplained failures of the electronics in my house (and all the neighbors' houses) too. The LCD panel made troubleshooting a snap. It also allowed me to easily explain to the power company trouble desk, in a convincing, believable manner, the urgency of the situation so they would send someone out so quickly.

Your PC would have been fine and I suspect so would have your screens due to modern PSUs being auto ranging between 100 and 250 volts.

Your resistive loads AC/Refrigerators/Washing machines and especially dryers as well as any other electric motors definately wouldnt have been happy with it. Those windings would be toasty!

 

[Bill_Bright]

These guys may or may not not have the voltage reader with them, as my issue is lower priority

Not sure I agree with you on that. For one, I would suspect they have several voltmeters with them. Most likely every tech who has a tool bag or belt likely has one, or there's one in their truck.

Second, while no power is a priority (especially for those who need power for medical life support), it really is not a situation that would cause the power company $$$ - or in your case, £££.

Losing power may cause food in the freezer or fridge go bad, or customers missing the game on the telly to be upset. But home owner's or renter's insurance covers food loses (minus your deductible) because that is typically caused by "an act of nature". Plus, you could buy ice and use coolers or run the food over to a neighbor of family member's who still has power.

A high voltage scenario like you are experiencing and like I had is a different issue as that is due to a fault in the power company's equipment. Equipment they are responsible to maintain. And those voltages can cause permanent damage to the compressors in refrigerators and freezers. And while I understand most homes in the UK do not have air conditioning (I used to live in East Anglia), some do, as do many stores and businesses. And those compressors as well as many AC motors used in big fans, ventilation systems and other applications can be damaged from high input voltages.

I am just saying, if the responding tech verified your mains voltage is too high - it definitely became a priority for them too.