Kagi: $5/month for a search engine in 2024?

[the54thvoid]

I read that Kagi's founder is a proponent of AI? An article I read said there is/was an AI toggle in Kagi, which I guess you can turn off.

As for misinformation, it's a very grey area but generally speaking, search engines restrict 'disinformation' which is not the same thing. Disinformation is malicious and designed by whichever bad actor to obscure factual information. For example, the tobacco lobbies decades ago obfuscating the links to cancer using disinformation to create doubt.

The great thing is, though, we're free (at least some nations are) to choose our provider.

And please let's keep this away from pointing political fingers.

 

[dgianstefani]

I read that Kagi's founder is a proponent of AI? An article I read said there is/was an AI toggle in Kagi, which I guess you can turn off.

As for misinformation, it's a very grey area but generally speaking, search engines restrict 'disinformation' which is not the same thing. Disinformation is malicious and designed by whichever bad actor to obscure factual information. For example, the tobacco lobbies decades ago obfuscating the links to cancer using disinformation to create doubt.

The great thing is, though, we're free (at least some nations are) to choose our provider.

And please let's keep this away from pointing political fingers.

Yep, and there's custom filters you can set up if you desire. https://kagi.com/settings

I read that Kagi's founder is a proponent of AI? An article I read said there is/was an AI toggle in Kagi, which I guess you can turn off.

As for misinformation, it's a very grey area but generally speaking, search engines restrict 'disinformation' which is not the same thing. Disinformation is malicious and designed by whichever bad actor to obscure factual information. For example, the tobacco lobbies decades ago obfuscating the links to cancer using disinformation to create doubt.

The great thing is, though, we're free (at least some nations are) to choose our provider.

And please let's keep this away from pointing political fingers.

Unless that bad actor is paying Google revenue to push their grey area. Or the special interests which work tightly together with big tech to control information.

Julian Assange - Google Is Not What It Seems

Source of that article AKA the international award winning journalists who've won every court case trying to shut them down and have a 100% track record of accuracy.

I'm not interested in discussing politics either, but there's a clear link between the administration and what information is controlled (so, I'd prefer for my search engines to not have that "responsibility" or whatever you want to call the real time filtering of information).

"Schmidt was penning a treatise with Jared Cohen, the director of Google Ideas, an outfit that describes itself as Google’s in-house “think/do tank.” I knew little else about Cohen at the time. In fact, Cohen had moved to Google from the US State Department in 2010"

Again, I'm not discussing politics here, just stating, that like working in medicine, pharma and regulators, it's a revolving door, and pretending these things aren't political is naive. Rather I'd prefer to accept they are, and seek alternatives which are not, or are less entwined.

 

[Vayra86]

Yep, and there's custom filters you can set up if you desire.


Unless that bad actor is paying Google revenue to push their grey area. Or the special interests which work tightly together with big tech to control information.

Julian Assange - Google Is Not What It Seems

Source of that article AKA the international award winning journalists who've won every court case trying to shut them down and have a 100% track record of accuracy.

I'm not interested in discussing politics either, but there's a clear link between the administration and what information is controlled (so, I'd prefer for my search engines to not have that "responsibility" or whatever you want to call the real time filtering of information).

"Schmidt was penning a treatise with Jared Cohen, the director of Google Ideas, an outfit that describes itself as Google’s in-house “think/do tank.” I knew little else about Cohen at the time. In fact, Cohen had moved to Google from the US State Department in 2010"

Again, I'm not discussing politics here, just stating, that like working in medicine, pharma and regulators, it's a revolving door, and pretending these things aren't political is naive. Rather I'd prefer to accept they are, and seek alternatives which are not, or are less entwined.

I see what you are trying to dodge here but I dont think its going to work. ALL information is potentially coloured in sone way. Objectivity is found in peer reviewed research (most of the time.... ). Everything else is opinion.

This is as old as written word really. The best way to guard yourself here is by using (historical) context and arm yourself with knowledge. And even that backfires on a lot of people because they forgot to check their sources and actually float on opinion based info more than anything.

I doubt Search can fix this.

 

[dgianstefani]

I see what you are trying to dodge here but I dont think its going to work. ALL information is potentially coloured in sone way. Objectivity is found in peer reviewed research (most of the time.... ). Everything else is opinion.

This is as old as written word really. The best way to guard yourself here is by using (historical) context and arm yourself with knowledge. And even that backfires on a lot of people because they forgot to check their sources and actually float on opinion based info more than anything.

That's fine. I'm happy for individual coloured information. I'm not happy being fed the current political, AI generated hallucinations or corporate/sponsored bias.

Being armed with knowledge has the prerequisite of that knowledge being available. That's what we're discussing here. Search results.

Also I think you mean "do", not "dodge

 

[Vayra86]

That's fine. I'm happy for individual coloured information. I'm not happy being fed the current political, AI generated hallucinations or corporate/sponsored bias.

Why would Kagi avoid that? Its not immune to whatever is the mood of the day.

 

[dgianstefani]

Why would Kagi avoid that? Its not immune to whatever is the mood of the day.

No, they're not immune, but there's a relative scale, like all things.

Obviously reading physical books/academic referencing standard of information quality will always be better sources than articles on the internet. (wayback machine is fun to see how those articles and definitions etc. have changed). But that's just true for any academic work.

 

[Vayra86]

Fair. Im gonna give it a shot on those free searches. Maybe my eyes shall be opened

 

[Ahhzz]

This is an opinion you need to have used the service to have.

You're entitled to doubt, but perhaps look into the actual differences between competing search engine models.

If you're OK with two companies (Google and Microsoft) having a duopoly on 99%+ of internet traffic, are you also OK with the dead internet theory, i.e. massive prevalence of bots, AI generated content, segmented and divided identity politics echo chambers etc?

Having independant companies that provide services requires funding. You can get that funding through adverts (not private), sponsorship (not without strings) or user funded (not free). Decisions you make like these allow some semblance of "independant" information dissemination.

I do get tired of the "nothing is 100% private so why care" attitude, I have to say. It irks me, and I'm used to seeing it from the technologically illiterate, but not from people who frequent enthusiast technology forums.

It's the abdication of citizen rights and responsibilities, which include the responsibility of choice, that has led us to this somewhat dystopian digital world.

"Nothing to hide nothing to fear" is literally Orwellian.

Bugs me that friends who are otherwise intelligent resist using superior open-source and free messaging apps such as Signal. I'm a "privacy freak" because I find Meta distasteful and refuse to use WhatsApp, Insta etc.

Even disregarding privacy and security factors, Kagi and Signal are better at what they do than the conventional alternatives.

You're also asking "how do we know" their claims are true?

Well, we know for a fact that the conventional alternatives are doing all the things we don't want them to. So even if the competition isn't perfect, that's a silly comparison. Player A is robbing me, is making plans to rob me in future, and each time the robbery is worse. Player B may rob me in future, therefore it makes no sense to align with player B. Does this make sense to you?

While I agree with some of this noise, I have this to say about Signal. I installed it on my phone a few years ago to facilitate communication for someone, with someone in mainland China. It was used one time that day. The day after I installed it, someone else I knew, who also had Signal, reached out to me ON SIGNAL, to let me know they were glad I was now using Signal. I uninstalled it.

 

[dgianstefani]

While I agree with some of this noise, I have this to say about Signal. I installed it on my phone a few years ago to facilitate communication for someone, with someone in mainland China. It was used one time that day. The day after I installed it, someone else I knew, who also had Signal, reached out to me ON SIGNAL, to let me know they were glad I was now using Signal. I uninstalled it.

So? Signal allows you to see who in your contacts list is on the platform (because you can't message them otherwise).

It's a messaging service over the Internet. You used to be able to use the app to send unencrypted SMS texts too by setting it as the default SMS app. They removed that functionality a while ago to remove any illusion of secure messaging when it was just SMS.

These days you can message people without letting them know your number, via a username.

At the time of your messages with your friend, phone numbers were still required to contact people over the platform. This is no longer the case.

 

[R-T-B]

Besides, even if it was. Who decides what is "misinformation"?

Generally, public knowledge. Facts. You know, those things. Some things just aren't disputable. Facts. That's kind of their definition.

We've got people believing in crazy shit like "pizzagate" and qanon nuttery because people have forgotten that facts do in fact, matter, and you can't google/[INSERT ALTERNATIVE SEARCH HERE] your way to the truth of your choosing.

 

[dgianstefani]

Generally, public knowledge. Facts. You know, those things. Some things just aren't disputable. Facts. That's kind of their definition.

I wish that was all that was filtered. Let's agree to disagree. While that may be the definition of the word, that's not always how it's used.

Besides, my point is pretty much that what appears in search is what becomes "public knowledge". Hence my uneasiness when faceless corporations get to decide what is and isn't misinformation.

 

[R-T-B]

I wish that was all that was filtered. Let's agree to disagree.

My man I frequent some communities here most would consider sketch as fuck and they ain't removed from google.

Besides, my point is pretty much that what appears in search is what becomes "public knowledge".

Search online is not a valid source for facts like that, no. You generally need to check sources, even online. Look for publications that have a good track record. Primary and secondary sources. I know not everyone went to college and learned this stuff but that's why we need fact checkers.

 

[dgianstefani]

My man I frequent some communities here most would consider sketch as fuck and they ain't removed from google.

Search online is not a valid source for facts like that, no.

Precisely.

 

[R-T-B]

Precisely.

It can be a valid source for sources though. Not sure what you are getting at. And since the masses do use it, for better or for worse, I don't see an issue with making it more accessible frankly.

Maybe you are correct we have to agree to disagree I'm just trying to understand though.

 

[dgianstefani]

It can be a valid source for sources though. Not sure what you are getting at. And since the masses do use it, for better or for worse, I don't see an issue with making it more accessible frankly.

Maybe you are correct we have to agree to disagree I'm just trying to understand though.

Hence why earlier in the thread I mentioned that Google Scholar was still decent.

My point is not that accessible is bad, but that we should be wary of powerful (and not impartial) entities like Google wielding power of censorship over things they deem "misinformation".

 

[R-T-B]

Hence why earlier in the thread I mentioned that Google Scholar was still decent.

My point is not that accessible is bad, but that we should be wary of powerful (and not impartial) entities like Google wielding power of censorship over things they deem "misinformation".

Yeah, I get that. I guess I just witnessed what misinformation did recently, and am willing to let big tech have a go at it vs going through a future where no one believes anything.

But yeah, there is no way google being the sole censor is ideal. I do miss when the web was more open and competitive. I think we all do.

 

[dgianstefani]

As far as I'm concerned, the people paying Google to promote their product/ideology are the customers, that's who they cater to (and the governments who later become employees dictate similar corporate policy as they did political). The people using Google are not the customers and are not catered to, they're the product, enticed by convenience and "free" services.

Yeah, I get that. I guess I just witnessed what misinformation did recently, and am willing to let big tech have a go at it vs going through a future where no one believes anything.

But yeah, there is no way google being the sole censor is ideal. I do miss when the web was more open and competitive. I think we all do.

100%.

Having a toggle where you can turn on/off the "misinformation" would be good, or if the codebase and decision history was transparent like open source software or the blockchain. But it isn't.

Or what Twitter is doing with community notes. That seems decent. If something is to be censored/corrected in the public library of info, let it be transparent, with sources, and public led.

Anyway, I'm off to do some actual work, but this has been a good discussion.

Another good thing about Kagi is that they tell you exactly what changes are being made. It's somewhat accountable.

You can bill annually too for a 10% discount.

Quick info is available regarding the privacy/security of links, before you click on them too, which is super useful.

Or being able to block/prioritize domains.

Search Sources | Kagi's Docs

Kagi Search Help

help.kagi.com

 

[dragontamer5788]

Maybe this deserves a comparison with Google?

The #1 link on Google for "Best beginner microcontroller" is: https://www.themechatronicsblog.com...oards-for-beginners-to-professionals.html?m=1

Which is pretty blatantly LLM generated blogspam. Arduino Uno, the #1 recommended platform, is a 2010 era design released 14 years ago. #9 BeagleBone Black isn't even a microcontroller, its a microprocessor comparable to Rasp. Pi. The #2, #3 links are to Reddit and Quora, which are okay and relevant, but not always helpful. These kinds of errors are very much unhelpful, and anyone reading this crap is misled for at least a few minutes as they figure it out.

Worse: If you're actually a beginner in microcontrollers, you may never actually figure out that what you're reading is crap. So if I can't trust the search engine in subjects that I'm good at, how I can I possibly trust Google in a subject that I'm a n00b / beginner at?

----------

Here's the Kagi equivalent search: https://kagi.com/search?q=Best+beginner+microcontroller&r=us&sh=inRLbKMpKjabII3kDwZtRA

It starts with the Reddit and Quora links. But suddenly comes: https://ntn888.github.io/blog/begin-embedded/

And **THIS** github link is very good (!!). Its unavailable anywhere on Google, as far as I can see. So that's what I mean by "better search", I'm finding things that Google cannot find, AND Kagi is filtering out blogspam / LLM crap that Google is unable to filter out. I'm not seeing anything "terrible", and I'm seeing unique searches that Google's left out.

----------

There's crap in the way AND Google is blind to the good links. The more I trial this search engine, the more I'm convinced that "it just works". I don't think I'm "excited", but I'm "pleased". The only downside is the $$/month charge. Kagi is undoubtedly better search.

 

[Vayra86]

Maybe this deserves a comparison with Google?

The #1 link on Google for "Best beginner microcontroller" is: https://www.themechatronicsblog.com...oards-for-beginners-to-professionals.html?m=1

Which is pretty blatantly LLM generated blogspam. Arduino Uno, the #1 recommended platform, is a 2010 era design released 14 years ago. #9 BeagleBone Black isn't even a microcontroller, its a microprocessor comparable to Rasp. Pi. The #2, #3 links are to Reddit and Quora, which are okay and relevant, but not always helpful. These kinds of errors are very much unhelpful, and anyone reading this crap is misled for at least a few minutes as they figure it out.

Worse: If you're actually a beginner in microcontrollers, you may never actually figure out that what you're reading is crap. So if I can't trust the search engine in subjects that I'm good at, how I can I possibly trust Google in a subject that I'm a n00b / beginner at?

----------

Here's the Kagi equivalent search: https://kagi.com/search?q=Best+beginner+microcontroller&r=us&sh=inRLbKMpKjabII3kDwZtRA

It starts with the Reddit and Quora links. But suddenly comes: https://ntn888.github.io/blog/begin-embedded/

And **THIS** github link is very good (!!). Its unavailable anywhere on Google, as far as I can see. So that's what I mean by "better search", I'm finding things that Google cannot find, AND Kagi is filtering out blogspam / LLM crap that Google is unable to filter out. I'm not seeing anything "terrible", and I'm seeing unique searches that Google's left out.

----------

There's crap in the way AND Google is blind to the good links. The more I trial this search engine, the more I'm convinced that "it just works". I don't think I'm "excited", but I'm "pleased". The only downside is the $$/month charge. Kagi is undoubtedly better search.

Im not sure searching 'bestest whatever' is The Way to be searching on search engines. No shit you are getting clickbait, the whole search line is literally clickbait article material.

Nevertheless I do agree there are mountains of junk in search results these days, but 'bestest whatever' is like painting a massive target on your forehead that spells: 'im an idiot, sell me nonsense'. Its like walking into a casino and thinking you wont gamble.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Im not sure searching 'bestest whatever' is The Way to be searching on search engines. No shit you are getting clickbait, the whole search line is literally clickbait article material.

Nevertheless I do agree there are mountains of junk in search results these days, but 'bestest whatever' is like painting a massive target on your forehead 'im an idiot, sell me nonsense'

But Kagi survived the test. I'm not seeing much clickbait at all in the Kagi version.

 

[Vayra86]

But Kagi survived the test. I'm not seeing much clickbait at all in the Kagi version.

Yeah. So Kagi found its way around the #1 sales and ad revenue tactic. Or you can just not add best in your search line. At $60,- a year thats an easy lesson.

I wouldnt overestimate the supposed power of kagi here

So now you know github exists. Your search line might need to involve it.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Yeah. So Kagi found its way around the #1 sales and ad revenue tactic. Or you can just not add best in your search line. At $60,- a year thats an easy lesson.

Well, lets pretend we were doing a microcontroller search for beginners.

What would you type into Google? Can you share those results? And I'll see how Kagi performs with your search instead.

 

[Vayra86]

Well, lets pretend we were doing a microcontroller search for beginners.

What would you type into Google? Can you share those results? And I'll see how Kagi performs with your search instead.

Ill provide some comparisons later! Im definitely interested in uncovering the algo here.

 

[dragontamer5788]

So now you know github exists. Your search line might need to involve it.

Isn't that Google's job to know that github is a good source of programming discussion?

I'm a programmer so yeah, I know github is a good source of programming discussion. But would a beginner know that? Why doesn't Google prioritize github like Kagi does?

 

[Vayra86]

Isn't that Google's job to know that github is a good source of programming discussion?

I'm a programmer so yeah, I know github is a good source of programming discussion. But would a beginner know that? Why doesn't Google prioritize github like Kagi does?

Kagi is looking for a niche to charge you $5,- a month. Google is not

Its really that simple I think