NASA Achieves milestone Solid State Battery

[Mussels]

I've got a problem when I see repeating patterns in threads that are going to lead to them being locked, especially when people have already been given warnings by other moderators to stop it.

 

[95Viper]

Get back on topic and the topic is: "NASA Achieves milestone Solid State Battery"
Stop the insults.

Or,

Threads that should/will be closed

• Threads of malicious, spiteful or toxic intent against any user, group or company.
  • This may include a thread going off topic with posts that include the above depending on how the community is responding.

 

[KLiKzg]

Looking forward on 2 topics:

1. How those SSB will do in space?
2. What is going to be implementation in everyday technology?

 

[VulkanBros]

VW Promises No 'Noticeable Loss Of Range' With Solid-State Batteries

 

[mb194dc]

It's the same issue with this technology. Yes it's technically possible...

The manufacturing cost is still astronomical, that is the problem with using them in the real world... Probably takes years or even decades to get SSB at a cost where people can afford to buy a car with one. Plus it'll probably be China who can produce them cheapest, as BYD are doing for regular batteries.

 

[lexluthermiester]

How those SSB will do in space?

I imagine that if NASA deploys them, they will have extensively tested and certified them for service. They will likely perform as needed and possibly better.

What is going to be implementation in everyday technology?

SSB's have potential for EV deployment. SSB's will have much greater Charge/Discharge cycle durability. They also have much faster charging times, by as much as 5x. The energy density per gram has increased as well, by as much as 27%. Operating temps are better and then there is the safety aspect(which alone is a reason to widely adopt the tech) make Lithium batteries look pathetic(which they are). So better durability, faster charging time, greater energy storage, safer battery tech would make SSB's the natural step forward for the EV industry.

 

[KLiKzg]

I imagine that if NASA deploys them, they will have extensively tested and certified them for service. They will likely perform as needed and possibly better.

SSB's have potential for EV deployment. SSB's will have much greater Charge/Discharge cycle durability. They also have much faster charging times, by as much as 5x. The energy density per gram has increased as well, by as much as 27%. Operating temps are better and then there is the safety aspect(which alone is a reason to widely adopt the tech) make Lithium batteries look pathetic(which they are). So better durability, faster charging time, greater energy storage, safer battery tech would make SSB's the natural step forward for the EV industry.

OK, so we get to have "electric cars". & so what?
Will this help us to have "electric cars"? No.

Will charging times help us, to have quicker charging time? Also, not.
Why? Well, most powerful AC charger in the World is about 22kWh, which needs to power up the battery in 5~6h. Are we going to design a 100kWh charger to get it done in ~1h? No, we are not.
But what about DC-DC charging? OK, those can go up to 100kWh charging now & charges a battery around ~1h (time for a meal at a stop). So are we going to design 500kWh DC-DC chargers? No, we are not. Why not, don't we need to charge cars in ~3min time? Yes, that would be nice, but there are big obstacles to make sthg run 500kWh charging.
& not even mentioning that usual household is only about up to ~10kWh certified.

What about energy density? Well, that is nice. But we need to switch to Na (sodium) batteries, as we can't find any more Li for car industry. So what are we going to do? Use Na & still get the same energy density as now with Li batteries? That is not so great progress.
But SSB uses S-Se...OK, so Sulphur is OK to find - not so much in great quantities. Sb is not so great, so we are going to have same issue as with Li now. Only, those are somewhat safer.

Safer? How safer? Can SSB electrify you? Yes, it can.
Can it burn? Well, S is quite the burning agent. So in presence of an O2, yes it can burn.
Can it start fire? Yes, that it can with "voltage arc".
So how is it safer? Only that is does not have Oxygen inside the cells. That is it? Yes, that is the only IT. Only advantage is that it can't burn under water or inside closed box. It will be suffocated by lack of O2.

Are we going to see the full EV anytime soon? No, we are not. As it is not possible & anybody telling you this either has not done it science or done its job.

 

[Denver]

I have more faith that cheap sodium batteries will give traction to the EV market than solid state batteries, as the latter has repeatedly shown itself to be unviable and not leaving the field of promises.

Make no mistake because it is NASA or any important company, many empty promises have been released by dozens of large companies, including well-known corporations.

 

[ratirt]

Safer? How safer? Can SSB electrify you? Yes, it can.
Can it burn? Well, S is quite the burning agent. So in presence of an O2, yes it can burn.
Can it start fire? Yes, that it can with "voltage arc".
So how is it safer? Only that is does not have Oxygen inside the cells. That is it? Yes, that is the only IT. Only advantage is that it can't burn under water or inside closed box. It will be suffocated by lack of O2.

Are we going to see the full EV anytime soon? No, we are not. As it is not possible & anybody telling you this either has not done it science or done its job.

It is not safer and not more eco friendly. Batteries require a lot of materials that are very hard to get and are very toxic to the environment. The emission is zero that is correct but to make one battery equals to tons of released CO2. Cost of utilization is tremendous and not eco friendly whatsoever. What is also very dangerous is the fire and when it starts burning. When an electric car starts to burn you know what is the way to put the fire down?
Well, there isn't any way unless you seal it in a container and let the battery burn out completely with such a high temp it can melt literally anything. It is a huge hazard to the environment and very dangerous. That is why in Norway, Some ferry fairs forbid electric and hybrid cars onboard.
In 2020, huge part of the parking lot in Sola Stavanger burned to the ground because of one electric car which caught fire. It was closed for a year and a half.
It was not the electric car that started burning but an old diesel car. Anyway, fire is very dangerous to any electric and hybrid car because of the battery. You can't put it down.

Google Image Result for x-raw-image:///c6c7e8c99fb9339ed7ba38013723f92a97d40e2242b9d0095541ada6a0a08c6d

 

[dgianstefani]

I have more faith that cheap sodium batteries will give traction to the EV market than solid state batteries, as the latter has repeatedly shown itself to be unviable and not leaving the field of promises.

Make no mistake because it is NASA or any important company, many empty promises have been released by dozens of large companies, including well-known corporations.

Yes, so unviable that Toyota, well known for unviable and unreliable cars, is switching to solid state batteries for its cars from 2026.

Toyota sets out advanced battery technology roadmap - Toyota Media Site

Toyota presents its roadmap for advanced battery technologies.

media.toyota.co.uk

Many, many others.

Besides the fact you can purchase solid or semi solid state batteries today, and every single major manufacturer has or has plans to release products with them.

VW recently demonstrated solid state battery tech in their car that retains 95% capacity after 1000 charge cycles.

PowerCo confirms results: QuantumScape’s solid-state cell passes first endurance test

The solid-state cell is considered a technology of the future and the next big step in battery development. The technology promises longer ranges, shorter charging times and maximum safety. The U.S. company QuantumScape has recently reached an important milestone, which was now confirmed by...

www.volkswagen-group.com

 

[Assimilator]

But we need to switch to Na (sodium) batteries, as we can't find any more Li for car industry.

Entirely false, the Li scarcity has been solved.

 

[Denver]

Yes, so unviable that Toyota, well known for unviable and unreliable cars, is switching to solid state batteries for its cars from 2026.

Toyota sets out advanced battery technology roadmap - Toyota Media Site

Toyota presents its roadmap for advanced battery technologies.

media.toyota.co.uk

Many, many others.

Besides the fact you can purchase solid or semi solid state batteries today, and every single major manufacturer has or has plans to release products with them.

VW recently demonstrated solid state battery tech in their car that retains 95% capacity after 1000 charge cycles.

PowerCo confirms results: QuantumScape’s solid-state cell passes first endurance test

The solid-state cell is considered a technology of the future and the next big step in battery development. The technology promises longer ranges, shorter charging times and maximum safety. The U.S. company QuantumScape has recently reached an important milestone, which was now confirmed by...

www.volkswagen-group.com

Unfortunately, this marks yet another instance where a big company has proclaimed the imminent release of groundbreaking battery technology, only to fall short of delivering on that promise.

Sony, which also commercialized the first lithium-ion battery, planned to introduce lithium–sulfur batteries to the market in 2020, but has provided no updates since the initial announcement in 2015 ->

QuantumScape is a curious case of a company that has existed for 13 years without having a single commercial product, more than a decade of promises backed by external capital. It reminds me of another company that seemed promising Aquion Energy, received hundreds of millions and never reached commercial viability to be profitable. They ended up declaring bankruptcy.

 

[lexluthermiester]

OK, so we get to have "electric cars". & so what?

Battery packs for homes with solar, laptops/tablets/phones, anything that needs a battery. Name your device.

But we need to switch to Na (sodium) batteries, as we can't find any more Li for car industry.

Entirely false, the Li scarcity has been solved.

Even if true, this does NOT solve the continuing safety hazards of Lithium formulations. Sodium-Ion is the better way forward as it's characteristics are similar to Lithium-Ion without the safety problems. Sodium is also much easier to acquire, cheaper to make and easier to recycle.

Lithium is a chemistry that needs to be abandoned. It can't happen soon enough.

 

[Super Firm Tofu]

Yes, so unviable that Toyota, well known for unviable and unreliable cars, is switching to solid state batteries for its cars from 2026.

Toyota sets out advanced battery technology roadmap - Toyota Media Site

Toyota presents its roadmap for advanced battery technologies.

media.toyota.co.uk

The link you provided says they aim to have solid state batteries ready by 2027/28, not switching over all cars to SS in 2026.

 

[lexluthermiester]

The link you provided says they aim to have solid state batteries ready by 2027/28, not switching over all cars to SS in 2026.

View attachment 328865

Good find! It would still be very beneficial to push SSB's to market ASAP. 2026/2027 would be better than a year later.

 

[KLiKzg]

It is not safer and not more eco friendly. Batteries require a lot of materials that are very hard to get and are very toxic to the environment. The emission is zero that is correct but to make one battery equals to tons of released CO2. Cost of utilization is tremendous and not eco friendly whatsoever. What is also very dangerous is the fire and when it starts burning. When an electric car starts to burn you know what is the way to put the fire down?
Well, there isn't any way unless you seal it in a container and let the battery burn out completely with such a high temp it can melt literally anything. It is a huge hazard to the environment and very dangerous. That is why in Norway, Some ferry fairs forbid electric and hybrid cars onboard.
In 2020, huge part of the parking lot in Sola Stavanger burned to the ground because of one electric car which caught fire. It was closed for a year and a half.
It was not the electric car that started burning but an old diesel car. Anyway, fire is very dangerous to any electric and hybrid car because of the battery. You can't put it down.

Google Image Result for x-raw-image:///c6c7e8c99fb9339ed7ba38013723f92a97d40e2242b9d0095541ada6a0a08c6d

Well, the emission is certainly also NOT zero. That has been a big lie to all of you, especially the wokesters.
In my country, emissions are 40~50% of each kWh you put in battery (or spend at home). As it does calculate in, where you got electricity from.

Did you not read my posts, when I was saying that I was working in car industry? Guess how much there are car manufacturers in Croatia. So, why are you preaching to a preacher?!

& also, it is not true that every battery is not safe. S-Se for SSB should be safer, as well as Ni-MH batteries that are used in some hybrids.
Why? There is no O molecules in them & you can suffocate its fire to death, like any other fire.
Problem with Li-ion is most of them use some O molecules in them. Once they start to burn, you can close them up & they will still burn - as they have O molecules in them. That is a big problem for EV market & that is why they are trying to make sthg else for chemicals in cells.

Please, be more precise when you are talking on "technical forum".

Yes, so unviable that Toyota, well known for unviable and unreliable cars, is switching to solid state batteries for its cars from 2026.

Toyota sets out advanced battery technology roadmap - Toyota Media Site

Toyota presents its roadmap for advanced battery technologies.

media.toyota.co.uk

Many, many others.

Besides the fact you can purchase solid or semi solid state batteries today, and every single major manufacturer has or has plans to release products with them.

VW recently demonstrated solid state battery tech in their car that retains 95% capacity after 1000 charge cycles.

PowerCo confirms results: QuantumScape’s solid-state cell passes first endurance test

The solid-state cell is considered a technology of the future and the next big step in battery development. The technology promises longer ranges, shorter charging times and maximum safety. The U.S. company QuantumScape has recently reached an important milestone, which was now confirmed by...

www.volkswagen-group.com

That is a good thing for Toyota, as they have push technology with hybrids & other non-Li batteries so far.

Now, they can do the SSB EV cars, which will not burn until it is burned completely.

Entirely false, the Li scarcity has been solved.

OK, lets say it might be solution for a problem of the modern world & hunger for Li.

What about Andes & impact on environment?
What about that Li is & always will be most reactive metal on periodic table? Second only to Hydrogen.

 

[ratirt]

Well, the emission is certainly also NOT zero. That has been a big lie to all of you, especially the wokesters.
In my country, emissions are 40~50% of each kWh you put in battery (or spend at home). As it does calculate in, where you got electricity from.

Did you not read my posts, when I was saying that I was working in car industry? Guess how much there are car manufacturers in Croatia. So, why are you preaching to a preacher?!

& also, it is not true that every battery is not safe. S-Se for SSB should be safer, as well as Ni-MH batteries that are used in some hybrids.
Why? There is no O molecules in them & you can suffocate its fire to death, like any other fire.
Problem with Li-ion is most of them use some O molecules in them. Once they start to burn, you can close them up & they will still burn - as they have O molecules in them. That is a big problem for EV market & that is why they are trying to make sthg else for chemicals in cells.

Please, be more precise when you are talking on "technical forum".

I'm talking about Norway not your country. So here emission is zero. Obviously, if you have your electricity from burning coal then the electricity you charge your car with, has already produced CO2.
safer does not mean safe but rather safer. You are talking about reading your post and yet you did not read mine
most of the batteries in cars are Lithium-Ion. I don't know a car that does not utilize lithium-ion in commercial use today. Tesla and Mercedes for instance.
Closing them up is the problem you know since they burn with extremely high temperatures. Especially if you are on a ferry.
About the O molecule, all batteries have it but some, may have less of it. All commercial cars use either LCO (Lithium cobalt Oxide) or NCA (Lithium Nickle Cobalt Oxide). Still burns as hell if you put fire to it. Still closing them up is a problem.

Ni-MH batteries

That thing has way less power than Lithium-ion batteries and thus burn less rapidly but also have way less capacity and dont hold the charge well.
I doubt car makers would have used it in a car. These types of batteries are inefficient for a car traction battery. These have been replacing Ni-Cd(cadmium) batteries since cadmium is very harmful to human lungs when inhaling it.

S-Se for SSB should be safer

Are safer. Still use lithium still respond poorly to high temperatures and mostly cost a lot to produce. Not saying this direction is bad but as of today, everyone is using lithium-ion and it is not going to change tomorrow. So the prospect of using solid state batteries in cars is promising but we're not there yet and considering the complexity of the solid state batteries, we still have long way to go.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I don't know a car that does not utilize lithium-ion in commercial use today.

To be fair, there are a few and the results have been promising. Sodium batteries entered mass production in 2023 and that adoption is gaining momentum. Personally, I am willing to consider Sodium-Ion EVs, but would much rather have SSBs that will improve driving range.

 

[ratirt]

To be fair, there are a few and the results have been promising. Sodium batteries entered mass production in 2023 and that adoption is gaining momentum. Personally, I am willing to consider Sodium-Ion EVs, but would much rather have SSBs that will improve driving range.

These are still low energy density. Sure some manufacturers can use it but that would be a town car that will get you to get groceries. Not saying the new techs are not promising they are but we are not there yet. If you have a manufacturer which is putting these sodium batteries in cars, I can guarantee you that most of the cars from that manufacturer will still use Lithium-Ion from the capacity perspective and range. Solid state batteries still respond to temperature and have air sensitivity. We are not there yet.
I'm speaking about here and now. So the prospect is great and I'm personally looking forward for it but that is a prospect not a reality yet.

 

[lexluthermiester]

These are still low energy density.

They are within single digit percentile of Lithium energy densities per gram(945 to 97% depending on the formulation). And while they're also heavier, they are 1/3 the cost to produce, meaning mounting more cells in a vehicle to make up the differences is very cost effective and fits within the design goals of most EV companies. In fact, making an EV with the same range of ICV is completely doable and cost effective with Sodium-Ion. They also take less time to recharge.

 

[ratirt]

They are within single digit percentile of Lithium energy densities per gram(945 to 97% depending on the formulation). And while they're also heavier, they are 1/3 the cost to produce, meaning mounting more cells in a vehicle to make up the differences is very cost effective and fits within the design goals of most EV companies. In fact, making an EV with the same range of ICV is completely doable and cost effective with Sodium-Ion. They also take less time to recharge.

You know, people are reading this and think, why are we not using these in cars for commercial purposes if these are so much better than Lithium-Ion.
How about you start with disadvantages to have a full overview?
I know China has released a car (2023) based on sodium battery. Battery capacity is 13.8KW (the lower version is 9.1KW? if I remember correctly). The car is tiny and has 27HP but also weighs 660Kg.
It may be great if you have been considering a EV scooter and now you can get a car.

 

[lexluthermiester]

You know, people are reading this and think, why are we not using these in cars for commercial purposes if these are so much better than Lithium-Ion.
How about you start with disadvantages to have a full overview?
I know China has released a car (2023) based on sodium battery. Battery capacity is 13.8KW (the lower version is 9.1KW? if I remember correctly). The car is tiny and has 27HP but also weighs 660Kg.
It may be great if you have been considering a EV scooter and now you can get a car.

Remember, it's just getting going. We have yet to see where it's going to go. On paper, Sodium-Ion is a clear improvement over all compared to Lithium. However, I'm very much more excited for the SSB's discussed on this article.

 

[ratirt]

Remember, it's just getting going. We have yet to see where it going to go. On paper, Sodium-Ion is a clear improvement over all compared to Lithium. However, I'm very much more excited for the SSB's discussed on this article.

In both cases we are not there yet. With Solid state Batteries, even if they manage to improve exponential, there is still one more important factor to overcome, cost. and that one is a doozy in the current economy. I'm afraid my friend, it will take long to get everything in order with SSB's to start mass production with variety of capacities and a decent price that will envelope all of that for a consumer.

 

[lexluthermiester]

In both cases we are not there yet.

True, very much a WIP.

With Solid state Batteries, even if they manage to improve exponential, there is still one more important factor to overcome, cost.

Remember though, once a product is mass-produced the costs come down on a per-unit basis. What they will finally arrive at is anyone's guess currently.

I'm afraid my friend, it will take long to get everything in order with SSB's to start mass production with variety of capacities and a decent price that will envelope all of that for a consumer.

We'll see. The past has shown us that anytime something is greatly needed, the pace of development to market speeds up.

 

[ratirt]

We'll see. The past has shown us that anytime something is greatly needed, the pace of development to market speeds up.

Yes and I have put that into my calculations I think it will take at least 5 years but I'm being generous here. 10 is more likely if we make leaps.
You know, they can still release it even if it is expensive. We will pay for it anyway if the legislation put in place will force us to use EV vehicles.

Remember though, once a product is mass-produced the costs come down on a per-unit basis. What they will finally arrive at is anyone's guess currently.

Yes but before that happens, you need to have costs reduce to start with and that might be a problem.