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What are the worst TIMs?

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1) The plastic/paper peel not taken off pre-applied coolers.
2) None, literally no TIM applied
3) Silicon grease, the old white silicon that dries out in 45 days
4) Old separated TIM in a tube like AS5 left from 200X in a garage.
5) Yogurt.

After that anyone with common sense can apply TIM of the correct type and for $14 they have a cleaner/TIM kit on most popular sites that will do 2 machines or 1 with a lot of squeeze out.
 
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Wow. Shin-etsu? That is, among other things, the largest manufacturer of silicon wafers.
Note that list is from 2007.. it also features MX-1. :)
I used to use Shin-Etsu many years ago - it was really good if you got a good application, but it was very thick and tacky and sometimes difficult to get a good spread.
 
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i dont know whats the worst but the best cheap is GD900 id put it as = to MX4 just not as easy to clean and at about £5 for 50g we cannot go wrong.
 
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Tried a good paperback novel yet? It even comes with clearance issues. Very low viscosity though
 
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Didn't find GD900 good and has a shelf life of 2 years. Then again I found Gelid extreme was okay until one tube I got was utterly dreadful. Was tempted to send it to the manufacturer to see if it was a bad batch or copy but decided it wasn't worth the time and cost. IC Diamond 7 worked well for me but very stiff if not warmed and left some scratches. MX6 okay but not impressed. Tried some ZF12 but think it's properties were exaggerated. Got some PK1 that came with Megahelams around Nehalem time, 10 years later that paste still worked great, may have even got better with age like wine!

NT-H1 reminded me of powdered mashed potaters.. all creamy and ready to pump out at a moments notice.
Come on. It usually takes around 36 hours to pump out and by that time it's crap.

If the gap is small
Yes, thickness is important also pressure. @TPCEA do you intend to measure these? would think it a bit tricky.
 
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In case it hasn't been linked yet,

Realistically, if toothpaste and Vegemite can get within 10% of dedicated thermal pastes, then that's within 5 degrees, meaning that literally anything you could possibly use will do the job just fine and the real criteria you should be looking at is not "how good is this TIM at cooling" but "how long will this TIM remain performant, and how easy is it to apply adequately?"

I've got a 25-year old bulk 1L tub of generic white silicone paste from a brand called Servisol that's still half full. In my many years and thousands of builds using various different compounds that come included with various Noctua, Thermalright, Arctic, coolers - I've never noticed enough of a difference between any of them to give two shits about it.
 
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I don't know how good Corsairs XTM50 paste is against any other pastes. I've only had XTM50 and I don't think it performs well.
 
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i dont know whats the worst but the best cheap is GD900 id put it as = to MX4 just not as easy to clean and at about £5 for 50g we cannot go wrong.

Harder to clean out might (maybe) mean harder to pump out.
 
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AS5 is actually pretty good. But the problem with it is that you have to be skillful with you're application. Too much and it is an insulator, and not enough.. well you know. AS5 loses its grip at around 200w imo, so if you have a small CPU.. being a 6 or 8 core, then it should be pretty good if you nail you're application.
IIRC, there was some truth to AS5 'thermally embedding' or 'wearing in'.

Back in those days, it seems like it was rare to keep a cooler together longer than a week or 2 :laugh:
 
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I'm aware toothpaste didn't score too highly.
Crest did in the test in the above video...

Thinking about it, though, there may be a flaw in the apparatus. If the mating of the 2 surfaces is too perfect, it can create conditions ideal enough to minimize variance between TIMs that would be misleading. Ignoring the lack of longevity, for example, one might as well use Crest given the result vs the cost.

I don't remember the wattage used or the heat produced, but the variance was so small as to make it useless to buy the expensive products. That testing ignored potential differences in results at different degrees/watt. Not all TIMs perform consistently from the lowest to highest temps. Additionally, although he controlled quite precisely for temp, he limited the test to 12 minutes, which I suppose can be used to calculate certain specifications (I hesitate to suggest which since my math skills have deteriorated severely since I was in school 4 decades ago), but it doesn't give the ability to determine at what point the TIM will become ineffective, dry out, improve, or otherwise indicate any different characteristics that would become evident through more thorough testing. This sort of complexity has always been what makes me skeptical of lab test results - sometimes we introduce new variables while eliminating other ones, and sometimes the results are achieved in an environment so divorced from the reality of the situation (in this case, PCs) that they can cease to be meaningful.

When testing in a PC, we see results that fluctuate and that may be influenced by updates and other background tasks (including malware), effects from other parts of the PC, and so on, which can end up confounding things, but that is exactly the reality faced by computer users. There is a line between the real and lab worlds that I think testers need to walk on, making sure also not to produce results that are irrelevant because of being too sterile and remote from reality. Some results are unlikely to be easily replicated unless the methodology is followed and the same equipment is used (assuming the condition and calibration are the same), but sometimes the most important factors are actually the least important because the difference between the best and worst products is so small that it won't affect most people, except for extremely heavy loads like 3D rendering, AI, saving & loading exceedingly large files, etc. Does it really matter if one TIM only rose to 31 C and the best to 29.7? Not really, if both can handle the same max temp for the same duration, and have similar lifespans, there are few practical considerations left other than the risk of pump-out and price. Why pay for Arctic Silver when you can get almost the same results with MX-4, right?

Ranking without being able to tell the range can be problematic unless there is some sort of indication that shows it is large or small.

Any thoughts?
 
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For me it is an impossible task...

If the surfaces are parallel the seperation can be zero

If the surfaces are not parallel, the separation varies from computer to computer.

So... one can only compare the relative performance of pastes and that assumes the surface interface has no temperature drop, which may not be true.
 
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Yes, thickness is important also pressure. @TPCEA do you intend to measure these? would think it a bit tricky.
By thickness, are you referring to the TIM? Do you mean how easy it is to spread vs how dense it feels? TF-7 is thicker and a bit more difficult to spread than NT-H1, and Alphacool Silver is thinner and easier than Noctua. It also looks cool while being relatively useless.

How would y'all suggest a person on a budget best measure these things? If I have a standardized device like in the video (but far cheaper), the pressure should be the same each time. A concern with his device is that he uses springs, which aren't applied at the same time and we know what that can lead to, plus metal fatigue will alter the pressure over time. Is there an optimal pressure, and what would be the best way to achieve it while ensuring consistency?
In case it hasn't been linked yet,

Realistically, if toothpaste and Vegemite can get within 10% of dedicated thermal pastes, then that's within 5 degrees, meaning that literally anything you could possibly use will do the job just fine and the real criteria you should be looking at is not "how good is this TIM at cooling" but "how long will this TIM remain performant, and how easy is it to apply adequately?"

I've got a 25-year old bulk 1L tub of generic white silicone paste from a brand called Servisol that's still half full. In my many years and thousands of builds using various different compounds that come included with various Noctua, Thermalright, Arctic, coolers - I've never noticed enough of a difference between any of them to give two shits about it.
Try Alphacool Silver. Stop by and you can have mine. It's crap. ;)

Seriously though, I agree that many modern compounds are so close in terms of temperature that longevity and price (and not disintegrating parts) are likely to be the deciding factors.
 
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By thickness I mean what thickness it has when bolted down and used; trouble is this will vary across the surface.
 
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By thickness I mean what thickness it has when bolted down and used; trouble is this will vary across the surface.
GN has the ability to measure than sort of thing, so I assume HWB does, too. Unless there's a miraculously cheap way to measure material that thin, I doubt I can prior to giving up my soul and making tech porn like Linus.
 
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Best not to try to repeat what has already been done but go after something new, like pump-out; maybe two flat pistons in a cylinder being compressed against a spring by a cam and seeing how the TIM resists pump-out.

Maybe etching (or circular machining) one surface helps lock the TIM in, or a surfactant might help the TIM backfill the crack.

How to Synthesize Ferrofluid (Liquid Magnets) (thoughtco.com)
they use oleic acid as a surfactant

Lots of things that might fit a low budget.
 
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Best not to try to repeat what has already been done but go after something new, like pump-out; maybe two flat pistons in a cylinder being compressed against a spring by a cam and seeing how the TIM resists pump-out.

Maybe etching (or circular machining) one surface helps lock the TIM in, or a surfactant might help the TIM backfill the crack.

How to Synthesize Ferrofluid (Liquid Magnets) (thoughtco.com)
they use oleic acid as a surfactant

Lots of things that might fit a low budget.
Hmmm...Sounds intriguing, although I don't have the space (I rent and my apt is rather crowded) or the tools for machining, etching, etc. I think I'd have to heat the pistons in order to check pump-out, and that is something that would probably not happen very rapidly with most brands. I can't just leave that kind of hot box unattended while it runs for months on end. I mean, I think I have what I need to heat them (a Foreman grill heating element is at my disposal), but it does sound rather bulky. What size piston? I would imagine you're talking about a small motorcycle piston? Not an engineer but I'm trying to envision your idea.
Maybe etching (or circular machining) one surface helps lock the TIM in, or a surfactant might help the TIM backfill the crack.
Would you mind explaining this idea?
 
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While I pictured pistons for pump-out, all I really had in mind was solid metal cylinders of a size comparable to a CPU.

Circular patterns is easy, turn the heatsink round and round on emery cloth.

The easiest idea to investigate might be the mixing of small amounts of oleic acid surfactant into the TIM.

Oleic acid.jpg
 
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While I pictured pistons for pump-out, all I really had in mind was solid metal cylinders of a size comparable to a CPU.

Circular patterns is easy, turn the heatsink round and round on emery cloth.

The easiest idea to investigate might be the mixing of small amounts of oleic acid surfactant into the TIM.

View attachment 340971
My son is curious where an ogre goes to learn about PCs. ;)

Wouldn't marring the surface tend to worsen the thermal dissipation?
 
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You would be surprised how many old computers get dumped in the swamp for Shrek to fix.

Well, let's say there is a thermal drop at the metal/paste interface (there a surfactant might help), then increasing the surface area might more than compensate.

Just playing with ideas.
 
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Wouldn't marring the surface tend to worsen the thermal dissipation?
Yes/No.

A. Corrosion is worse than "pits and valleys" from sanding.
B. I'd argue that 2 soft materials, 'roughened' in the same pattern, may have a better thermal bond than 2 'visually smooth' surfaces.

I swear, I've seen testing on this done, somewhere... Maybe OCN back in the day?
IIRC:
-Flat + Polished mated to Flat + Polished was 'best'
-Flat + Rough mated to Flat + Rough was better than "stock"


Today though,
CPU IHSs, GPUs and Coolers all are engineered around 'non-flatness'. -makes me wonder if 'matching grain' might be an improvement in bond.

Well, let's say there is a thermal drop at the metal/paste interface (there a surfactant might help), then increasing the surface area might more than compensate
I don't think a surfactant will help any w/ the existing issue(s) of Thermal Pump Out. I like the concept though.

Leaves me wondering if a 'dual-TIM' approach might work:
A thin lower viscosity TIM applied to 'roughened' IHS+Cold plate, scrapped off, then a (small amount) of high-viscosity TIM for the final thermal bond.

At the very least, it sounds like something "marketable". [Selling a 'kit' w/ a sanding stone, a 3D printed jig, and 2 diff TIMs] :laugh:
 
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I don't think a surfactant will help any w/ the existing issue(s) of Thermal Pump Out. I like the concept though.

Just playing with ideas, not claiming to have any solutions.
 
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