NVIDIA Shuns Lucid Hydra

[Benetanegia]

Well you have a selective memory then. ATI was accused of price fixing. Oh yeah Nvidia was also. And guess what? They settled out of court. As for the Intel thing we wont go into it.

Ati was accused of price fixing, yes, but there's no been generalised attacks from the people in forums for that. In fact I remember that and when it was made public I remember many people thinking and spreading it was Nvidia who forced them into that. When at that time Ati pretty much used to outsell Nvidia on discrete graphics and they had the OEM market where Nvidia didn't have a lot, so they were not the weak ones back then. But that's not the only thing: they didn't suffer the same treatment as Nvidia when they cheated 3Dmark, they were not accused of cheating on drivers when the driver that improved performance on FarCry 2 broke textures to the same degree as Nvidia was cursed for the same issue in Crysis...

Anyway, I'm not making the point that Ati/AMD is evil, I'm making the point that Nvidia is not as evil as some people are devoted to believe and make others believe. And if they are, they are definately not doing the things they say Nvidia is doing, they might be evil, but not for those things that have been proved wrong. Maybe of something like the price fixing thing, if they are doing something "evil" we definately don't know it and probably will never know. And at the end of the day what I am complaining about is that, that people in forums accuse without proofs and that things spread and become an effect similar to the most stupid myths that are tested in Mythbusters, but are myths that people strongly believe in, like if it was true, because they have heard a lot about, because of word of mouth. IMO that's pathetic.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Ati was accused of price fixing, yes, but there's no been generalised attacks from the people in forums for that. In fact I remember that and when it was made public I remember many people thinking and spreading it was Nvidia who forced them into that. When at that time Ati pretty much used to outsell Nvidia on discrete graphics and they had the OEM market where Nvidia didn't have a lot, so they were not the weak ones back then. But that's not the only thing: they didn't suffer the same treatment as Nvidia when they cheated 3Dmark, they were not accused of cheating on drivers when the driver that improved performance on FarCry 2 broke textures to the same degree as Nvidia was cursed for the same issue in Crysis...

Anyway, I'm not making the point that Ati/AMD is evil, I'm making the point that Nvidia is not as evil as some people are devoted to believe and make others believe. And if they are, they are definately not doing the things they say Nvidia is doing, they might be evil, but not for those things that have been proved wrong. Maybe of something like the price fixing thing, if they are doing something "evil" we definately don't know it and probably will never know. And at the end of the day what I am complaining about is that, that people in forums accuse without proofs and that things spread and become an effect similar to the most stupid myths that are tested in Mythbusters, but are myths that people strongly believe in, like if it was true, because they have heard a lot about, because of word of mouth. IMO that's pathetic.

Dude you are going to hear more bitching about Nvidia simply because more people own them. They hold a larger market share. Its commonsense.

 

[imperialreign]

True to an extent, but AMD has not been so quiet and has definately not played fair. They do try to look like they play fair, but I don't think they are at all. PhysX is the best example. Their reasons for declining it are completely false, because they did support Havok and although they said propietary tech must die, etc. on the one hand Havok is propietary too and on the other one the demo they did of GPU Havok was running in Stream (propietary) and not OpenCL, because they didn't have OpenCL drivers yet. On top of that, they forgot to mention that Nvidia is working with Havok too. Basically they lied, but they have managed to get away with that, because Nvidia is not saying we are supporting all those things, even they are actually supporting much more thinga than AMD. It's something that escapes my understanding tbh. AMD in that case did say we are not supporting PhysX and they did block it from running on their hardware, is there a difference if you do it on drivers or you do it by othr means? Not in my book. Now there's this thing with Hector Ruiz. I've been very aware of the false image of AMD fr long, for me it doesn't make a difference if a company does something "in your face" like Nvidia or in the shadows while your reps smile and say beautiful things that are then never fullfilled. They themselves have been engaged in a deprestigiation campaign against Nvidia, like saying everywhere they could that Nvidia doesn't support open standards like OpenCL, when in fact Nvidia had the drivers 2 months before them and have an SDK, which AMD doesn't and have Visual Studio integration and so on. But they get away with that lie, or distortion of reality, because people believe them.

This is not bashing or anything, I'm just showing that AMD is far from being the good company that pretends to be. It's just like any other company.

EDIT: Also what about Eyefinity. I don't see they have made it an open standard before using it and it's not as if they have not promoted it. I don't see them working to make it an open standard either. All I see is a very nice feature that only works on their hardware and very little chances of that being different in the future. So where did it go the mantra of open standards?

I agree - both companies are quite bad about their smoke & mirrors . . . it's just that nVidia tends to stick out more in people's heads simply for how straight-forward they are; whereas ATI have always been fairly quiet about what they're up to.

Regarding ATI's OpenCL support - I'd want to say that their late driver set was more to do with the cutbacks the company had made to keep their tail afloat during the first half of this year (it was rather rough on everyone) . . . but, TBH, I think it was more to do with their focus on Stream . . . which, ATI are pulling an nVidia with that technology. They're doing just like what green did with PhysX/CUDA, release it free with their drivers, and release the SDKs free . . . meanwhile, pushing software devs to pick up on it, while at the same time setting the drivers up so that Stream will only work on ATI/AMD hardware.

<sigh>

Someone should write a sitcom based off the 3-ring circus known as the PC video hardware market.

 

[inferKNOX]

... So without knowing the real reasons for this, it's just assuming that Nvidia did something wrong all the time, "because they did it in the past" and then the same crap as always follows, Assassin's Creed, etc....

A lot has been discussed about AA in Batman and the same arguments have been used. The same happened with PhysX and it's always people judging before knowing facts....

Nobody is talking about those games, PhysX or anything but Hydra here other than you.

yeah well... if everyone boycotts nvidia, then we won't need hydra in the first place :/

Whoever said that AMD would shun HYDRA as well was dead on. Intel would probably be next in line because their chipset division would be butthurt over this. I just hope an antitrust suit forces them to open up the market, unlikely, but it would be the only thing that would work.

I don't think AMD and Intel need to shun hydra, since it'd be beneficial for Intel because their Larabees will be able to be used in a system with an ATi/nV card which will make people more likely to buy the Larabees to add to their systems to experiment with, while having the ATi/nV cards for serious business. As for AMD, crossfire doesn't carry a premium for manufacturers + Intel boards already support it, so they have no loss to make. In fact they will benefit in that the only argument against ATi run systems will be dispelled, which is lack of PhysX since nV cards will be able to be run in the same system.
I think if Intel and AMD stick with Hydra, then they'll muscle nV into having to support it or face being... well, obsolete.

I apologize to any children I abused, or puppies that I might have kicked in the making of that post.

classic

It's really important for me to see everything from all the angles and I hate people that blindly follow wrong stablished ideas and don't make the effort to see all angls.

Nobody needs to many angles when dealing with a situation. I don't need to know how a car engine works to know the seats make me uncomfortable, even if the engine is the reason for that. I am a consumer, thus I expect the necessary service and/or goods rendered, not be told what I need by those I buy from, I was blessed with a brain for that.

Also what about Eyefinity. I don't see they have made it an open standard before using it and it's not as if they have not promoted it. I don't see them working to make it an open standard either. All I see is a very nice feature that only works on their hardware and very little chances of that being different in the future. So where did it go the mantra of open standards?

Eyefinity is possible for ATi because of the 5xxx GPU architecture, it's not a standard, neither proprietary nor open; it's a feature.

PS, Benetanegia & pr0n inspector, please fill in your specs.

 

[Benetanegia]

Nobody is talking about those games, PhysX or anything but Hydra here other than you.

Read the thread again and pay attention, please...

In fact this is as far as the thread got before PhysX was mentioned:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=1624229&postcount=2

POSTCOUNT=2

Nobody needs to many angles when dealing with a situation. I don't need to know how a car engine works to know the seats make me uncomfortable, even if the engine is the reason for that. I am a consumer, thus I expect the necessary service and/or goods rendered, not be told what I need by those I buy from, I was blessed with a brain for that.

Yet you are not using your brain, because you are blindly following an skewed vision. Half the article has been confirmed as false, to the point that the writer has apologized, and although Chrlie Demerjian is incapable of doing such thing as apologize, he has admitted to see the NF200 board several months ago. But you are still here complaining about the same thing as if it was 100% truth. A thing that is probably just false. Yes you need to look at things from mole angles if you want to be smart.

Eyefinity is possible for ATi because of the 5xxx GPU architecture, it's not a standard, neither proprietary nor open; it's a feature.

AND that was my point, AMD loves to say they only support open standards for the good of all consumers, but when it's time to standardize something they have created they are nowhere near to "share" it. And in fact, they are promoting it as an AMD exclusive feature, more than Nvidia ever promoted PhysX or 3D Vision. It's just hypocrite to do so.

- PhysX is a feature too, one that only works on Nvidia cards, because AMD wanted that too, so where does it come all the complaints then?

- Antialiasing in BAtman is a feature too, one created specifically for Nvidia cards, because the UE3 doesn't support AA, so why complaints?

 

[TheMailMan78]

AND that was my point, AMD loves to say they only support open standards for the good of all consumers, but when it's time to standardize something they have created they are nowhere near to "share" it. And in fact, they are promoting it as an AMD exclusive feature, more than Nvidia ever promoted PhysX or 3D Vision. It's just hypocrite to do so.

- PhysX is a feature too, one that only works on Nvidia cards, because AMD wanted that too, so where does it come all the complaints then?

- Antialiasing in BAtman is a feature too, one created specifically for Nvidia cards, because the UE3 doesn't support AA, so why complaints?

When did they ever say they only support open standards?

 

[PaulieG]

Play nice guys, or I see an infractions coming. Let's not turn this into a fanboy thread. Both ATI and Nvidia love to play games in order to gain market share. It's the nature of competitive big business. Nvidia has been at the top of the food chain for awhile, so they look like the bully. However, rest assured that ATI would be trying to control the destiny of other companies that affect their bottom line, if they have a reason to, and feel they can get away with it. There are no heroes and villians here. Just companies trying to hold a market share, and sometimes its ruthless.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Play nice guys, or I see an infractions coming. Let's not turn this into a fanboy thread. Both ATI and Nvidia love to play games in order to gain market share. It's the nature of competitive big business. Nvidia has been at the top of the food chain for awhile, so they look like the bully. However, rest assured that ATI would be trying to control the destiny of other companies that affect their bottom line, if they have a reason to, and feel they can get away with it. There are no heroes and villians here. Just companies trying to hold a market share, and sometimes its ruthless.

QFT. This summed it up perfectly.

 

[wolf]

^ +1 I could not agree more.

It's called Business.

 

[Benetanegia]

Play nice guys, or I see an infractions coming. Let's not turn this into a fanboy thread. Both ATI and Nvidia love to play games in order to gain market share. It's the nature of competitive big business. Nvidia has been at the top of the food chain for awhile, so they look like the bully. However, rest assured that ATI would be trying to control the destiny of other companies that affect their bottom line, if they have a reason to, and feel they can get away with it. There are no heroes and villians here. Just companies trying to hold a market share, and sometimes its ruthless.

That's the point I'm making from the start. From the start of the off-topic conversation I mean.

 

[Deleted member 3]

the eye in the nvidia logo is an "I" invidia means envy in latin. I think you're right that is probably is nvidia, but I prefer it the other way.

I agree Mike.

I prefer Mike over theubersmurf, and since we get to call things whatever we prefer I'll stick to Mike. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[PaulieG]

I agree Mike.

I prefer Mike over theubersmurf, and since we get to call things whatever we prefer I'll stick to Mike. Thank you for your understanding.

LOL. You always have such a unique way of making a point.

 

[theubersmurf]

I agree Mike.

I prefer Mike over theubersmurf, and since we get to call things whatever we prefer I'll stick to Mike. Thank you for your understanding.

That works You got my name right

But you know what, you're right, instead of referring to them by a name I made up...I'll refer to them as what they are, from now on I'm calling them "Little Intel". Trying to foist proprietary standards on everybody as a general standard, using a ham fisted method of dealing with people who jeopardize their technologies place in the market, using their market share to do it...Seems apt.

 

[DonInKansas]

SHUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN the nonbelievers!

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the title.

 

[imperialreign]

Play nice guys, or I see an infractions coming. Let's not turn this into a fanboy thread. Both ATI and Nvidia love to play games in order to gain market share. It's the nature of competitive big business. Nvidia has been at the top of the food chain for awhile, so they look like the bully. However, rest assured that ATI would be trying to control the destiny of other companies that affect their bottom line, if they have a reason to, and feel they can get away with it. There are no heroes and villians here. Just companies trying to hold a market share, and sometimes its ruthless.

100% agreed - and with the way the market has been moving more in ATI's favor since the release of the HD4000 series, and the success the HD5000 series have been gaining, we're starting to see ATI kicking their "stunts" up a notch, too.

I'd bet good money that if ATI completely takes the upper hand in sales over nVidia's upcoming series - we'll see the tables turn . . . that is, ATI becoming more aggressive in their tactics, and nVidia playing it more quietly.

 

[Edito]

I think the world has problems with Japaneses but i will support till the end.

Hydra is with no doubt a good thing but don't forget this is business and in this field company's use to fight with all they got and nvidia is trying to protect they cake and everybody here in the skin of nvidia will do the same thing im trying to tell that they are the good guys all the way its not that but this is business.

Who complains about intel not supporting USB 3.0??? nobody

Let them fight with all they got in the end will be good for us this is what drives the tech forward and i want to be able to connect different GPUs like my actual GTX285 + GT300 with no probs but please don't forget that this is business...

 

[OneCool]

Let them fight with all they got in the end will be good for us this is what drives the tech forward and i want to be able to connect different GPUs like my actual GTX285 + GT300 with no probs but please don't forget that this is business...

Thats what this thread has been on about for 8 pages.nvidia isnt going to let that happen.

There drivers will "break" the Hydra connections rendering the GPU not functional on Hydra installed motherboards.

Im about sick of nvidia doing this kind of bullshit.I guess thats why I havnt supported them (bought any of their products) in 4 years now.

 

[Yukikaze]

Does anyone know if Crossfire support is being charged for by AMD, or is it completely free for say, Intel, to introduce it to their motherboards ?

I hate this very promising idea to go down the drain because of NV's business practices, but I suspect that this exactly what will happen. I also suspect that there is nothing anyone can do about it. I also hold absolutely no faith in any idea of a boycott, and I also think just about everyone so riled up about it here will quickly buy up the GT300 cards if they perform well and are decently priced.

Of course, if Lucid paid X dollars for each chip sold to nVidia, I bet nVidia would very quickly adopt it and support it.

 

[Mussels]

Does anyone know if Crossfire support is being charged for by AMD, or is it completely free for say, Intel, to introduce it to their motherboards ?

I hate this very promising idea to go down the drain because of NV's business practices, but I suspect that this exactly what will happen. I also suspect that there is nothing anyone can do about it. I also hold absolutely no faith in any idea of a boycott, and I also think just about everyone so riled up about it here will quickly buy up the GT300 cards if they perform well and are decently priced.

Of course, if Lucid paid X dollars for each chip sold to nVidia, I bet nVidia would very quickly adopt it and support it.

free as far as anyone knows. Remeber that crossfire has been available on AMD (pre merger) chipsets, intel, and ALI/ULI - maybe more i dont even know of

nvidia has been with their chipsets and their chipets only (until x58)

 

[shevanel]

People say fuck nvidia i want hydra. then you want hydra so you can get more nvidia so you can run gpus of different nvidia models together?

I am missing something here?

 

[Mussels]

People say fuck nvidia i want hydra. then you want hydra so you can get more nvidia so you can run gpus of different nvidia models together?

I am missing something here?

ATi users? lol

 

[Disparia]

People say fuck nvidia i want hydra. then you want hydra so you can get more nvidia so you can run gpus of different nvidia models together?

I am missing something here?

As a consumer loyal to no company, I'll "turn on a dime".

nVidia will play, and I'll consider their cards in a Hydra system.

nVidia will not play, and I'll pair my existing 4870 with one or more 5xxx.

ATI and nVidia won't play, Hydra dies, f' them both, but I'll most likely move on with with ATI (triple output).

ATI won't play and nVidia does, f' ATI, I'm back to nVidia.


Of course everything is wrapped in one big "IF" statement, does Hydra perform adequately at all? Does it null a feature that I want/need? It could possibly come down to "f' Lucid".

 

[smuggler]

No need to get hyped. market will sort it out if Hydra is good enough.

I am not sure about my path of logic but I believe it will not matter if Nvidia shuns Hydra. here is what i think.

The latest Nvidia GPU came out months ago. So their drivers have matured enough there will be no immediate need to update drivers. And most probably Lucid tested Hydra using those drivers. That means Hydra works with current Nvidia drivers.

Old Nvidia users will still have the option to use their existing Nvidia GPU with an ATI 5800. And if they are happy with the results, next time they change to a new GPU it will be an ATI since they can use the existing ATI with the next generation.

That will hurt Nvidia's sales and in order to not to lose market share Nvidia will give way to Hydra in future drivers.

And if that works Hydra will speed up the release of new hardware from Ati or Nvidia (really new technology or tweaking of same stuff) because these companies will feed the need to be the best in the market.

Am i missing something here?

 

[kylew]

True to an extent, but AMD has not been so quiet and has definately not played fair. They do try to look like they play fair, but I don't think they are at all. PhysX is the best example. Their reasons for declining it are completely false, because they did support Havok and although they said propietary tech must die, etc. on the one hand Havok is propietary too and on the other one the demo they did of GPU Havok was running in Stream (propietary) and not OpenCL, because they didn't have OpenCL drivers yet. On top of that, they forgot to mention that Nvidia is working with Havok too. Basically they lied, but they have managed to get away with that, because Nvidia is not saying we are supporting all those things, even they are actually supporting much more thinga than AMD. It's something that escapes my understanding tbh. AMD in that case did say we are not supporting PhysX and they did block it from running on their hardware, is there a difference if you do it on drivers or you do it by othr means? Not in my book. Now there's this thing with Hector Ruiz. I've been very aware of the false image of AMD fr long, for me it doesn't make a difference if a company does something "in your face" like Nvidia or in the shadows while your reps smile and say beautiful things that are then never fullfilled. They themselves have been engaged in a deprestigiation campaign against Nvidia, like saying everywhere they could that Nvidia doesn't support open standards like OpenCL, when in fact Nvidia had the drivers 2 months before them and have an SDK, which AMD doesn't and have Visual Studio integration and so on. But they get away with that lie, or distortion of reality, because people believe them.

This is not bashing or anything, I'm just showing that AMD is far from being the good company that pretends to be. It's just like any other company.

EDIT: Also what about Eyefinity. I don't see they have made it an open standard before using it and it's not as if they have not promoted it. I don't see them working to make it an open standard either. All I see is a very nice feature that only works on their hardware and very little chances of that being different in the future. So where did it go the mantra of open standards?

There's nothing stopping nVidia implementing their own "version" of Eyefinity.

Eyefinity is just a name, and the name is the only thing owned by ATi itself, the actual result of the feature (running games across multiple monitors) isn't "Owned" by anyone as such.

If nVidia don't add this feature themselves, nVidia users still have the option of using TH2G.

 

[grimeleven]

Zomg people check this out... Hydra does indeed seem to be valid 100% scaling in performance http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/644/benchycopy.jpg

Using 3x GTX295 with http://www.elsa-jp.co.jp/english/products/pes/vridge_x100_quad8/index.html

Crysis 191FPS avg...