Mitsubishi Intros 120 Hz Interpolated Full HD Monitor

[Wile E]

if your video card is actually outputing at 24hz, everything would be extremely choppy due to the very low frame counts, not just videos.

No, videos aren't choppy at 24fps, unless you run into pulldown issues. Movies have natural motion blur. You can't directly compare movies and games in terms of framerate.

Yes, quite - a 24Hz flicker on a CRT would be a 'delight'.

Every movie you have watched on a tube TV has been under 30fps. Movies and games are very different. There is no choppiness in a 24 or 30fps video.

All that does is make the judder uniform. Repeating a frame is very, very visible to the eye and looks crap. Doing it 5 times for a 120Hz display won't make a blind bit of difference. The picture is literally moving one, stopping for a bit and then moving again. This stop-go motion is highly visible and objectionable.

Here in the UK, we use a 50Hz/fps PAL video system. A 24fps film is played back at 25fps, which results in every frame being shown twice. This leads to very visible judder and looks very unpleasant. Some TVs have the frame interpolation function, making the film motion look smooth like on 50Hz video. Because the TV has to guess how the inbetween frames should look, frame interpolation works to varying degrees of success and can easily cause its own artifacts.

Also, I happen to be able to prove this at home. My DVR can play back smoothly at double speed (without sound). Do that with film and the judder disappears completely, as it's being shown only once. The motion is silky smooth and has no unpleasant artifacts.

Why they still insist on using cruddy old 24 or 25fps film for modern made-for-TV productions beats me.



+1

You don't see the frame repeats at all. It crams 5 frames in the same amount of time it was only supposed to do one. Your eye does not notice it. To your eye, it appears as a single 24fps frame. Instead of playing a single frame at 1/24 of a second, it plays the same frame 5 times at 1/120 of a second each time.

Again, a 24fps movie played on a 60hz display jitters because of pulldown. It plays one frame 3 times, then the next frame 2 times. It's this uneven amount of frame repeats that causes the jitter. 120hz screens repeat all frames the same amount of times.

Pal is completely unrelated to this discussion.

Playing your DVR at double speed does not prove your point. It is also a completely unrelated phenomenon.

 

[Mussels]

the judder people are talking about, is related to frame rate vs refresh rate.

24 FPS on 24Hz looks fine.

The problem is that when you get a 24FPS signal and try and up it to run at 60Hz, they double it for 48FPS and then have to make up 12FPS difference by either doubling frames, skipping them or speeding up parts of the signal - this is what causes the judder, when it doesnt work right.

its becoming less and less relevant as more things move to 30/60Hz/FPS sources (bluray ftw!) because pretty much everything now is a multiple of 30 - 60Hz, 120Hz, and so on.

the 50/100/200Hz screens work better with 24Hz/FPS sources, but they wont work as well with the new stuff.

 

[Wile E]

the judder people are talking about, is related to frame rate vs refresh rate.

24 FPS on 24Hz looks fine.

The problem is that when you get a 24FPS signal and try and up it to run at 60Hz, they double it for 48FPS and then have to make up 12FPS difference by either doubling frames, skipping them or speeding up parts of the signal - this is what causes the judder, when it doesnt work right.

its becoming less and less relevant as more things move to 30/60Hz/FPS sources (bluray ftw!) because pretty much everything now is a multiple of 30 - 60Hz, 120Hz, and so on.

the 50/100/200Hz screens work better with 24Hz/FPS sources, but they wont work as well with the new stuff.

Actually Mussels, every BD I've ripped so far is 24fps.

 

[Mussels]

Actually Mussels, every BD I've ripped so far is 24fps.

i've not ripped any to find out. ah well.

i know for fact that its the difference in FPS and refresh rate that causes judder, cause i've seen on AV forums where they suggest dropping to 50Hz instead of 60Hz on HDTV's to reduce it.

 

[Wile E]

i've not ripped any to find out. ah well.

i know for fact that its the difference in FPS and refresh rate that causes judder, cause i've seen on AV forums where they suggest dropping to 50Hz instead of 60Hz on HDTV's to reduce it.

Yep. That's what I've been trying to explain to them, but I just can't seem to word it in a way that makes sense to them.

 

[pr0n Inspector]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to explain to them, but I just can't seem to word it in a way that makes sense to them.

No you are the one that is confused. I said "everything". Your desktop is always perfectly sharp. There will be no motion blur to trick your eye.If your video card is outputting at 24hz you will notice it. You only think you can force your monitors to accept 24hz signal.

Mitsubishi advertised this monitor's frame interpolation ability because it is not a true 120hz display. It takes the standard 60hz signal and run its magic to make it look unrealistically smooth, like those fake 120hz TVs.

 

[Wile E]

No you are the one that is confused. I said "everything". Your desktop is always perfectly sharp. There will be no motion blur to trick your eye.If your video card is outputting at 24hz you will notice it. You only think you can force your monitors to accept 24hz signal.

Mitsubishi advertised this monitor's frame interpolation ability because it is not a true 120hz display. It takes the standard 60hz signal and run its magic to make it look unrealistically smooth, like those fake 120hz TVs.

You are focusing on completely the wrong thing. Forcing the video card to 24Hz on a 60Hz display will make everything jerky, but not on a 120hz display (aside from the normal lack of smoothness associated with a non-smoothed source, like games or desktop).

But, output a 24fps video to this screen at 24fps, and it will be smooth. Make more sense that way?

 

[pr0n Inspector]

You are focusing on completely the wrong thing. Forcing the video card to 24Hz on a 60Hz display will make everything jerky, but not on a 120hz display (aside from the normal lack of smoothness associated with a non-smoothed source, like games or desktop).

But, output a 24fps video to this screen at 24fps, and it will be smooth. Make more sense that way?

Because the point is, this monitor, and most other monitors, only accepts a 60hz signal(some declare itself 75hz capable, but drop one in five frames in actuality). Your LP2475w, cannot actually accept 24hz, the choppiness of a v-synced Aero desktop at 24hz/fps would be painfully obvious and unbearable.

This monitor, takes a 60hz signal, then do frame interpolation to get a 120hz picture. It's the thing that was popular in the TV market. I say was because at least the TV market is getting more and more 24p/120hz TVs and true 120hz TVs.

 

[qubit]

@Wile E: Thanks for your reply, but I don't agree and it looks like you've missed a point or two there, but I don't fancy going round in circles over it.

 

[Wile E]

Because the point is, this monitor, and most other monitors, only accepts a 60hz signal(some declare itself 75hz capable, but drop one in five frames in actuality). Your LP2475w, cannot actually accept 24hz, the choppiness of a v-synced Aero desktop at 24hz/fps would be painfully obvious and unbearable.

This monitor, takes a 60hz signal, then do frame interpolation to get a 120hz picture. It's the thing that was popular in the TV market. I say was because at least the TV market is getting more and more 24p/120hz TVs and true 120hz TVs.

Almost all HD capable monitors and TVs do accept 24hz. That's where the misunderstanding is. If this one doesn't, it's out of the ordinary. 24hz is a standard BD output format, and almost all HD screens support it as input. Whether it wroks well or not, is what's up for debate here.

My monitor does accept 24Hz input. I've done it myself. In fact, all of my HD capable monitors and TVs accept a 24hz input. Of course it's choppy because it's trying to interpolate 24hz into 60hz. Doesn't work. On a 120Hz monitor, this DOES work, because 24Hz converts to 120Hz beautifully.

Sorry, but unless this monitor doesn't accept 24hz input (which would be the only 120Hz monitor I know of with this condition), you are simply mistaken here.

@Wile E: Thanks for your reply, but I don't agree and it looks like you've missed a point or two there, but I don't fancy going round in circles over it.

Please point out what I missed. I don't see anything off hand.

 

[Mussels]

Almost all HD capable monitors and TVs do accept 24hz. That's where the misunderstanding is. If this one deosn't, it's out of the ordinary.

My monitor does accept 24Hz input. I've done it myself. In fact, all of my HD capable monitors and TVs accept a 24hz input. Of course it's choppy because it's trying to interpolate 24hz into 60hz. Doesn't work. On a 120Hz monitor, this DOES work, because 24Hz converts to 120Hz beautifully.

Sorry, but unless this monitor doesn't accept 24hz input (which would be the only 120Hz monitor I know of with this condition), you are simply mistaken here.



Please point out what I missed. I don't see anything off hand.

so that people get your point...

120/24=5 (so it can display each frame 5 times)
60/24=2.5 - it either has to skip half a frame, or speed up to make it work.

 

[qubit]

Please point out what I missed. I don't see anything off hand.

You haven't done anything "off hand" or wrong Wile E, it's just one of these conversations I can see going round in circles and I'd rather not.

 

[pr0n Inspector]

Almost all HD capable monitors and TVs do accept 24hz. That's where the misunderstanding is. If this one doesn't, it's out of the ordinary. 24hz is a standard BD output format, and almost all HD screens support it as input. Whether it wroks well or not, is what's up for debate here.

My monitor does accept 24Hz input. I've done it myself. In fact, all of my HD capable monitors and TVs accept a 24hz input. Of course it's choppy because it's trying to interpolate 24hz into 60hz. Doesn't work. On a 120Hz monitor, this DOES work, because 24Hz converts to 120Hz beautifully.

Sorry, but unless this monitor doesn't accept 24hz input (which would be the only 120Hz monitor I know of with this condition), you are simply mistaken here.



Please point out what I missed. I don't see anything off hand.

For FSM's sake stop repeating how 120hz works. I know that perfectly well. What I'm disagreeing with you is that most computer monitors do not take 24hz.

 

[Mussels]

For FSM's sake stop repeating how 120hz works. I know that perfectly well. What I'm disagreeing with you is that most computer monitors do not take 24hz.

all monitors with HDMI do. its part of the spec.

 

[pr0n Inspector]

all monitors with HDMI do. its part of the spec.

I don't see this requirement anywhere.
http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/whitepaper/SilicaonImageHDMIWhitePaperv73(2).pdf

 

[shevanel]

I have a Mitsubishi 40" hdtv with the 120hz doo-dad thingy. It makes all the HD movies look incredible, totally smooth and very sharp. When I disable it, things just look average.

One thing I have noticed though, some movies, and I don't know why on certain ones, but The Dark Knight for instance gives off that "soap opera" look when played @ 120hz setting... maybe its the file idk, but I don't have a blu ray player, just MPC.

Ya know what I mean about the "soap opera" look?

 

[Wile E]

For FSM's sake stop repeating how 120hz works. I know that perfectly well. What I'm disagreeing with you is that most computer monitors do not take 24hz.

Every single one I have ever tried or owned with an HDMI input that is capable of 1920x1080 takes a 24Hz input, period. Tons of HD peripherals output at 24hz. It would be completely stupid to not allow 24hz input on a monitor that might be used with a BD player, as an example.

 

[pr0n Inspector]

I have a Mitsubishi 40" hdtv with the 120hz doo-dad thingy. It makes all the HD movies look incredible, totally smooth and very sharp. When I disable it, things just look average.

One thing I have noticed though, some movies, and I don't know why on certain ones, but The Dark Knight for instance gives off that "soap opera" look when played @ 120hz setting... maybe its the file idk, but I don't have a blu ray player, just MPC.

Ya know what I mean about the "soap opera" look?

it's a technique called "frame interpolation". basically it creates a new intermediate frame from true frames.

 

[pr0n Inspector]

Every single one I have ever tried or owned with an HDMI input that is capable of 1920x1080 takes a 24Hz input, period. Tons of HD peripherals output at 24hz. It would be completely stupid to not allow 24hz input on a monitor that might be used with a BD player, as an example.

it's stupid to produce wide-gamut 8-bit monitors too. doesn't stop them from doing it.

 

[Wile E]

it's stupid to produce wide-gamut 8-bit monitors too. doesn't stop them from doing it.

I can't argue there. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.