X-Fi Support Syndicate & Owner's Clubhouse

[windbag]

its probably just a dead card. i wouldnt waste my time with it.

So why was it recognised when I ran "Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi series driver 2.18.0013-SBXF_PCDRV_LB_2_18_0013.exe" ?

 

[Mussels]

So why was it recognised when I ran "Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi series driver 2.18.0013-SBXF_PCDRV_LB_2_18_0013.exe" ?

perhaps i should have said 'faulty' or 'bad' instead of 'dead' which implies total non functionality.

 

[imperialreign]

Thanks for keeping up with this thread, guys! y'all are sooooo teh awesum!1!

Does no-one have any ideas?

As Mussels mentioned, it's very possible the card has failed - usually having something powerful enough to take down your PSU and SATA cables doesn't bode well for other hardware . . .

BUT, it's quite possible the OS is simply borked, or there's a conflict that's not being shown.

Remove the card, then reboot and run driver sweeper - clear out all Creative drivers and software without the card being installed. Make sure, too, that onboard audio is disabled, and that you've disabled any other audio hardware within WIN Hardware Manager (i.e. if you're running newer ATI cards, disable their audio output), and remove any associated drivers and software that may be installed.

Once that's done, re-boot to make sure everything has been cleaned, and that WIN isn't trying to recognize any newly "found hardware." Once that's a go, turn off, install the X-Fi and boot up. From there, install the drivers and software that are on the X-Fi installation disk first, if everything works, go ahead with the updated drivers.

Some of the updated drivers build off of older ones it seems - I've had instances where the only driver pack that works correctly is off the disk, too.

Also - DO NOT let WIN detect and install updated drivers for the X-Fi, for some reason those kill functionality. I'm not sure if WIN Update simply isn't detecting the right hardware or what, but it rarely if ever works correctly. Creative's AutoUpdate tends to be sketchy, too, and will sometimes try and grab drivers that aren't compatible with hardware you're running. Grab the updated drivers manually from Creative's site.

Good luck!



===============================

Regarding everything else . . . Mussels - nice audio thread you've started! Some good info there, too. If I could make the recommendation, you might also want to give some thought to linking the guide thread I started as well into your post. Especially the debate of expansion card vs. onboard, there are tangible "viewable" results of the differences clearly displayed.

As to my abscence - RL has been crazy the last few months. Broke up with my gf of 8 years, so I'm sure you all know how that goes . . . especially when you've got a potential interest around too

Been slam busy with mods for STALKER (somet things never change, eh?), and have become "enlisted" in helping with a few high-profile mods for the series . . . a lot of free time has been devouted to that work.

Everything else just falls into the realm of BS . . . y'know, work, work, work . . .

I ain't dead yet, though - I'll still be around

 

[Mussels]

imperialreign: PM me the information (formatted as you want it), and i'll look it over and add it into the stickied thread.

 

[windbag]

...it's quite possible the OS is simply borked, or there's a conflict that's not being shown.
Remove the card, then reboot and run driver sweeper....

Thanks for picking this up with a positive suggestion, imperialreign.

I hadn't heard of drive sweeper, but my searches to download/use it have run into problems, with Guru's home pages not having links to it any more, others disowning new versions with ads etc - I didn't come up with a link to a Vista 32 bit version that anyone would let me have.

If you know a link, please point me at it & I'll have a bash at what you say, as it sounds like it MIGHT be a possible explanation for what I observed before - and it's worth a go, as X-Fi Elite Pro's ain't cheap!

 

[imperialreign]

imperialreign: PM me the information (formatted as you want it), and i'll look it over and add it into the stickied thread.

Will do this weekend as time permits.

Regarding the 24-bit debate, I entirelly agree with that article . . . to an extent. The consumer can easily have use for 24-bit audio - if they're ripping it straight from a CD or DVD-A . . . it will sound it's best in an uncompressed, raw format. Compressed audio completely negates the broader range that 24b is capable of, for numerous reasons. But, most consumers don't rip their audio in a raw format, and the amount of space a single disk would take up is hefty . . .

But, I completely agree with the notion that 24b is going to turn into a major con - the whole audio industry is moving towards a massive con as it is, everything from the audio we purchase, to the hardware we run it with.

The Loudness War is destroying the quality of the musicians recordings, and it's fueling spec wars (specifically SNR) with the hardware manufacturers. Sure, having a higher SNR is great and all, but past 115db the average consumer won't notice the difference unless they're pushing some semi-professional or extreme high-end playback equipment. We've seen Creative and ASUS starting to go full-steam with this conflict, where it seems the only real updates to their audio cards are the SNR ratings (via replacing the DAC). ASUS has taken it a step further by using a specific DAC for the LF/RF channel output, and different ones for the remaining channels.

With the labels and distributors now pushing compressed audio left and right, and consumers demanding higher quality mp3s - I've about come to the conclusion that they're still compressing these files available online in a lower bitrate, then bumping them up to "320 kbps" just to "make the sale."

IDK - I guess it really boils down to what kind of music you specifically listen to. Everything mainstream and pop has started to sound like utter shite over the last few years due to these practices. Most underground labels haven't fallen prey to this BS yet, but it depends on who's doing the mixing. Electronic acts, though, seem to be heavily against the Loudness War, and are one of the few remaining musical genres where audio still has a broad range cause it hasn't been boosted to hell and tarnation.

Buyer beware, right?

Of note - there's a small push being started in the industry to start moving recording to 32-bit. The hardware is starting to make itself available . . . it'd give the recording industry a little more room with their insane loudness levels, but I don't think it's going to take off too soon yet . . . we'll see . . .

Thanks for picking this up with a positive suggestion, imperialreign.

I hadn't heard of drive sweeper, but my searches to download/use it have run into problems, with Guru's home pages not having links to it any more, others disowning new versions with ads etc - I didn't come up with a link to a Vista 32 bit version that anyone would let me have.

If you know a link, please point me at it & I'll have a bash at what you say, as it sounds like it MIGHT be a possible explanation for what I observed before - and it's worth a go, as X-Fi Elite Pro's ain't cheap!

Try this one: http://download.cnet.com/Driver-Sweeper/3000-2094_4-75219868.html

If need be, I'll get the latest version and upload it to my SkyDrive for ya.

Once you do have the app - when you run it, boot into WIN Safe Mode to run it. There are some files and drivers that can't be removed when WIN is running normally.

 

[windbag]

Recognised by Vista but not by Creative!

Thanks, imperialreign, that link worked & I downloaded drive sweeper V3 OK.

Then it was interesting. There was one Registry entry item Driver sweep couldn't clear out - and on manual inspection it wasn't there.
What was sad were the hundreds of Creative entries still in the registry after uninstallation and driver cleaning - and only a few "kosher" ones for an MP3 player. Loads and loads of shared files areas, sharedDLLs, even driver Desc entries with "Creative X-Fi Audio Processor (WDM)" as their data, one saying the driver was version 6.0.1.1.1575 - when it had just been cleaned out. Is Creative noted for leaving so many broken registry items after uninstallations?

So, nothing like installing for the first time.

Anyway, I disabled the onboard Sound, reinstalled the card and, lo, the entry
"Creative X-Fi Audio Processor (WDM)" was there in Device Manager. Is that the right entry for an X-Fi Elite Pro?
Windows didn't try to install drivers , though, which I thought was odd.
Then the installation CD said it couldn't find a product to install to.
Eh? Vista can.

I aborted the registration thing, then the Software Autoupdate said it couldn't find any Creative product, either.

So, there it sits, showing in Vista Device manager, not being picked up by the original installation discs of the AutoUpdate process.

Any ideas what next?

 

[imperialreign]

Thanks, imperialreign, that link worked & I downloaded drive sweeper V3 OK.

Then it was interesting. There was one Registry entry item Driver sweep couldn't clear out - and on manual inspection it wasn't there.
What was sad were the hundreds of Creative entries still in the registry after uninstallation and driver cleaning - and only a few "kosher" ones for an MP3 player. Loads and loads of shared files areas, sharedDLLs, even driver Desc entries with "Creative X-Fi Audio Processor (WDM)" as their data, one saying the driver was version 6.0.1.1.1575 - when it had just been cleaned out. Is Creative noted for leaving so many broken registry items after uninstallations?

Most manufacturer's are actually really bad about their installation packages not cleaning up old traces - the video manufacturer's are notorious for it as well. WIN is also bad about not cleaning itself up, either. Come to think of it, you might want to try running a reputable registry cleaner to remove anything DS might have missed. Just make sure to make a system backup/restore point, and back up the registry first - just incase something gets borked.

So, nothing like installing for the first time.

Anyway, I disabled the onboard Sound, reinstalled the card and, lo, the entry
"Creative X-Fi Audio Processor (WDM)" was there in Device Manager. Is that the right entry for an X-Fi Elite Pro?
Windows didn't try to install drivers , though, which I thought was odd.
Then the installation CD said it couldn't find a product to install to.
Eh? Vista can.

I aborted the registration thing, then the Software Autoupdate said it couldn't find any Creative product, either.

So, there it sits, showing in Vista Device manager, not being picked up by the original installation discs of the AutoUpdate process.

Any ideas what next?

If after cleaning everything up and removing all drivers/software - once you put the card back in, if WIN is actually recognizing it as a "Creative X-Fi" in Device Manager; something didn't get cleaned right . . . more than likely WIN still has it's drivers stashed away somewhere that weren't cleaned - it sees the hardware ID matches the driver, so it goes ahead and applies the driver to the hardware (which is why it doesn't pop up with the window "new hardware found").

If you can move the card to a different slot: try the process again - open WIN's control panel and remove all Creative software and drivers, turn off, remove the card, boot into safe mode, run Driver Sweeper, yadda yadda . . .

BUT, when you re-install the card, install it into a different slot. This will force WIN to assign a new IRQ to the device, and a different DMA path.

The way it's starting to look, though, you might have to re-install WIN to attempt to clean up the problem. It's starting to sounds like something within the OS kernel is borked. If you do re-install win, after first boot, install the drivers for the chipset, then install the drivers for the audio device before installing drivers for any other hardware. WIN doesn't assign a "permanent" IRQ to a device until drivers have been installed for the first time, and the X-Fi's work best with higher priority IRQs.

 

[AphexDreamer]

Guys does anyone know how I can use Dolby Pro Logic IIx?

Or get 7.1 channels off my X fi Titanium?

Currently I'm using Dolby 5.1 Encoding via Digital Out to my 7.1 capable Wireless Headset but I'm only getting 5.1 and can't enable 7.1 via windows?

Any way of getting 7.1 channels up and running via digital out?

Also which is better? Dolby Pro Logic IIx or Dolby 5.1?

I think my Xfi Card can't do real time Encoding of Dolby 7.1 via Digital out.

So I've concluded that I might get this HT | OMEGA CLARO Plus+ 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz ...

I just want to be sure and get some "Ok's" before I buy it. So that will output 7.1 via Digital out, correct?

 

[Wile E]

Dolby 5.1 is better than PLII. PLII is "fake" surround.

And optical and coax digital does not support 7.1 channel output. A new sound card won't do it. You need either HDMI or analog going to your 7.1 device.

 

[imperialreign]

Wile E is right here - but to give you a little broader explanation . . . althougth the Titanium series support 7.1 output, you won't get that through optical or SPDIF; the medium itself doesn't support it. Optical can *kinda* support 7.1, but not raw formating (not enough bandwidth); only HDMI is capable of that.

Here's where it gets muddy: to date, the only type of media that directly supports 7.1 right out of the box are Blu-Ray players, and unless you're watching BR on your PC, the audio stream goes through countless hoops to being 7.1. Your game, movies, or other media will need to be upmixed from their current source number of channels (with 90% of al media, this is standard 2-channel) to 7.1, encoded, set to your reciever, decoded and played back. So, you're essentially getting 2-channel that has been upmixed and glorified to multi-channel output. Even 5.1 will have to go through upmixing to 7.1.

Some games support 5.1 (not many, and the majority that do "support" 5.1 aren't natively 5.1 - Call of Duty I'm looking squarely at you :shadedshu ), and only DVD-media is natively 5.1. so . . .

In regards to the Dolby thing, IIRC the only Dolby encoding that natively supports 7.1 is TrueHD. The rest will leave your hardware to downmix to 5.1, encode and send, and your reciever will end up doing the upmixing back to 7.1 (literally panning and expanding the rear side channels).

Aside from HDMI, the only other way to get proper 7.1 output is multi-jack analog connections - letting your hardware directly control the output . . . but this isn't always a viable option (nor does every audio card support this anymore).

Sorry for any rants - but this all kinda falls into the grey-area specification muddying that I've seen a lot of in the audio industry the last few years; as consumer knowledge remains low, manufacturers are stouting more and more BS cause customers simply don't know any better - misleading them into uninformed purchasing .

 

[AphexDreamer]

I appreciate the information but I was talking about Dolby Pro Logic IIx not Dolby Pro Logic II.

Dolby® Pro Logic® IIx is an extension of Dolby Pro Logic II matrixing technology that delivers enveloping 6.1 and 7.1 surround sound from both stereo and 5.1 content.

I know sound cards exist that can do that ^^^. So I just wanted to be sure that the sound card I posted would do that via Digital Out.

I know it must be possible unless my TB PX5 Manual is providing me with false information. It states the following.

1. If the digital input source is Dolby Digital 5.1/7.1 signal , the front DD LED turns on and Dolby Headphone processes the channels to create surround sound in the headset.

2. If the digital input source is Dolby Pro Logic IIx signal , both Dolby LEDs will turn on and Dolby Headphone processes creates surround sound in the headset.

3. If the Digital input source is stereo, the DPL IIx turns on and expands the stereo.

Currently I'm doing 1. with 5.1 but want to do either 1. with 7.1 or get 2 working which I think I need new hardware for.

You guys see where I'm coming from now?

 

[Wile E]

I appreciate the information but I was talking about Dolby Pro Logic IIx not Dolby Pro Logic II.

Dolby® Pro Logic® IIx is an extension of Dolby Pro Logic II matrixing technology that delivers enveloping 6.1 and 7.1 surround sound from both stereo and 5.1 content.

I know sound cards exist that can do that ^^^. So I just wanted to be sure that the sound card I posted would do that via Digital Out.

I know it must be possible unless my TB PX5 Manual is providing me with false information. It states the following.

1. If the digital input source is Dolby Digital 5.1/7.1 signal , the front DD LED turns on and Dolby Headphone processes the channels to create surround sound in the headset.

2. If the digital input source is Dolby Pro Logic IIx signal , both Dolby LEDs will turn on and Dolby Headphone processes creates surround sound in the headset.

3. If the Digital input source is stereo, the DPL IIx turns on and expands the stereo.

Currently I'm doing 1. with 5.1 but want to do either 1. with 7.1 or get 2 working which I think I need new hardware for.

You guys see where I'm coming from now?

We understood you just fine, but you seem to be misunderstanding how these things work.

Your headphones are mislabeling things (or just over simplifying), because PLIIx is not a digital signal like dolby digital, it's a processing effect that is done on the decoder itself. Read the entire link you gave. It does not happen at the computer level, it happens at the decoder level, which would be your headphones.

But that doesn't change the facts. No sound cards put out 7.1 channel sound over optical or coax. In fact, no consumer device exists on the market that does 7.1 over spdif. There is not enough bandwidth available in spdif (coax and optical both included) to do 7.1, period.

HDMI or analog out are your options. The only other way you'll be able to get 7.1 is if there is a usb input option on your headphones, and they handle all decoding.

 

[imperialreign]

^^ Agreed.

Be wary of headphones claiming 7.1 support, man. I've yet to see any headsets that are true 7.1 (with multiple drivers in each ear piece). They're all 2-channel that are using some form of positional audio to "simulate" a 7.1 experience. Usually they come with their own little decoder box, and support one of the Dolby methods to do this, as the platform they're typically targeted at doesn't support positional audio effects.

Really, it's bad marketing - these headsets (typically labeled "gaming") are targeted more-or-less at console gamers than the PC community, where misinformation seems to abound.

Here's a prime example of what I'm refering to: [URL="http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2132584&postcount=364"]http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2132584&postcount=364[/URL]

If you see anything labeled "matrixing," "expanding," "upmixing," etc. - it ends up meaning that it's a 2-channel setup that's using some IT to give the impression that it supports more channels than it natively does.

But, to get back to your question, the audio cards don't support "native" 7.1 output via optical. The card will downmix the signal to 5.1 during encoding, and pass along an identifier for the decoder to expand it back to 7.1.

To do what you'd like, as natively as possible without breaking up the output signal - you'd need to run the analog 7.1 cables from the back of the card to a reciever that can run output directly to your headphones.

 

[imperialreign]

Regarding my last statement (see above), I'm going to have to change that tune about the 7.1 headsets:

http://www.razerzone.com/tiamat/en

I'm defi looking forward to this item - hopefully I can convince some friends or relatives for a nice christmas present (as I won't be able to afford them for a while ), if the unit ships by the end of the year.

I guess only time will tell how they compare to 5.1 headsets.

 

[velma41]

hi windbag, I use dodownload.net for download creative sound card software. This software very handy.

 

[windbag]

My "Card not recognised" Saga Still Unresolved

Since the thread has slipped away from my topic, but is still live, I thought I'd update it with where I am from my first post.

I eventually found it was the main PC power supply that had caused the failures (even though it's nominal power handling was comfortably in spec). Since swapping it to a new one, no more problems. But that took me months to work out, moving through all the quick/cheap changes to the more esoteric.
In June, I started having a go at reinstalling the card, but got all the same old problems, even with the suggestions made here.

perhaps i should have said 'faulty' or 'bad' instead of 'dead' which implies total non functionality.

In a last ditch attempt, I paid for a local professional to take my existing card and build it into a new Vista machine. It worked (works) perfectly. No errors, fully functional. So it is NOT a faulty card of any sort.

Accordingly, I started raising the issue with Creative support. I kept dealing with someone called Arman. I did a whole load of "runaround" tasks, none of which actually got the issue on any further, part from show that Creative driver upgrade programs are unable to recognise the card in my system as it is.

Then in August, Arman said he had checked the serial number of the card, and accused me of using an OEM version of the card and closed the support ticket. This really infuriated me, as it was NOT OEM - but with Creative acting as judge and jury, I was somewhat stuck.
I did open another ticket to try and get out of Creative how to identify an OEM card from the serial numbers, which they kept avoiding answering. I also managed to find my original PC supplier (who had nominally closed, but had retreated to another town), and they sent Creative an email saying it was not OEM (via yet another support ticket ref).

Eventually, in late August, Creative finally responded and admitted they had made a mistake and that it was not OEM - and immediately started to ask me to re-perform the same "runaround" jobs that I had done at the start in July!

I got fed up with this, and asked that the three existing support ticket numbers be merged and escalated to a senior support engineer to make some progress.
They acknowledged escalation request, then at the beginning of September said they wanted to confirm the card didn't install - which I told them it didn't, even though it did/does on a newly-built Vista machine. I reminded them a week later that I'd not heard anything - it took another 9 days to get a terse reply to "be patient".

So I waited another 7 weeks, when I reminded them that I've not actually made any progress on this issue since the end of July. Since then I have heard nothing - diddly squat.

I'm thinking of writing to the national PC press on this one, as I am well brassed off.

There is nothing wrong with my card, it works on a new-build Vista machine, so it is a combination of the Creative update-driver procedure and/or their un-installation methodology that is causing the problem, and I don't feel it is unreasonable that Creative support should be able to provide a fix without a rebuild (a solution which is NOT acceptable to me).

 

[Wile E]

Regarding my last statement (see above), I'm going to have to change that tune about the 7.1 headsets:

http://www.razerzone.com/tiamat/en

I'm defi looking forward to this item - hopefully I can convince some friends or relatives for a nice christmas present (as I won't be able to afford them for a while ), if the unit ships by the end of the year.

I guess only time will tell how they compare to 5.1 headsets.

If they are anything like other Razer headphones, they are overpriced, low quality garbage.

 

[imperialreign]

Since the thread has slipped away from my topic, but is still live, I thought I'd update it with where I am from my first post.

. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .

There is nothing wrong with my card, it works on a new-build Vista machine, so it is a combination of the Creative update-driver procedure and/or their un-installation methodology that is causing the problem, and I don't feel it is unreasonable that Creative support should be able to provide a fix without a rebuild (a solution which is NOT acceptable to me).

Sorry to hear of your troubles, man . . . but what you're describing is exactly one of the reasons I started this thread ages ago. Creative's support is mental.

Thei un-installation rarely works correctly, also . . . many times I've found the only way to be certain is to boot in safe mode and use Driver Sweeper to clean up the residuals; then use a registry cleaner to clean WIN registry, and manually go through the HDD's folder tress to make sure all folders were nixxxed too.

Which is why I started pushing and heavily recommending properly installing the hardware in a specific fashion - to eliminate the possibilities of something go awry and having to re-install later down the road.

Glad to hear you've gotten your hardware working, but sorry to hear of your adventures in Creative land.

If they are anything like other Razer headphones, they are overpriced, low quality garbage.

Probably - the HP-1's were definitely . . . and what kicked me was that they were the only true 5.1 headsets at time of release, and audio quality was actually decent. It was simply the construction materials were trash. It felt like constantly fighting to keep the headset from falling apart. All their other offerings I wouldn't touch even if paid.

I'm curious to hear how true 7.1 headset will sound, and if it offers a major upgrade in terms of both quality and that "edge" gamers like to have, once the headset is configured properly. At the very least, a true 5.1 headset can prove to be a major tool for a serious gamer . . . in theory 7.1 should allow for even better positional accuracy and determination . . . I guess we'll see.

At the very least, this release might be what kick-starts the industry into developing more. I'm getting sick of all these rubbish headsets that claim "5.1" or "7.1," even though they're only 2-channel being plumbed by a decoder box with a digital connection with the signal being upmixed by some Dolby standard or another. multi-channel hints at multiple drivers . . . not two. :shadedshu

 

[windbag]

hi windbag, I use dodownload.net for download creative sound card software. This software very handy.

Ha, you were posting this while I was writing my update. Can't see how this helps - the drivers from Creative are the correct ones - they just won't install as the part of the executable that is supposed to recognise the card doesn't work!

 

[imperialreign]

Ha, you were posting this while I was writing my update. Can't see how this helps - the drivers from Creative are the correct ones - they just won't install as the part of the executable that is supposed to recognise the card doesn't work!

There's another way to "hard" install the drivers . . . I'll look into it, as I can't remember how (it's been years since I've had to), but it might help if you run into headaches later on.

 

[windbag]

. . . what you're describing is exactly one of the reasons I started this thread ages ago. Creative's support is mental.

Indeed. That's why I came back with the update. Creative make an awful lot of money out of punters - to then treat them like idiots, try to abandon them on invalid grounds (OEM unit my arse) or just abandon them completely without explanation/response is the mark of a corrupt/inept/incompetent company, and posting my experiences is the only way I can see to move the dot back the other way.

Their un-installation rarely works correctly, also . . . many times I've found the only way to be certain is to boot in safe mode and use Driver Sweeper to clean up the residuals; then use a registry cleaner to clean WIN registry, and manually go through the HDD's folder tress to make sure all folders were nixxxed too.

I have tried Drive Sweeper, but it didn't get me there. Registry Cleaning is so fraught with dire possibilities that I haven't gone there, except the special utility I was recommended - which also didn't get me there, nor did it eliminate all Creative entries. But that's Creative Uninstaller's job!!!

 

[imperialreign]

Yeah - from what I've seen over the years, their hardware is the only thing decent they offer . . . everything else isn't worth the bother. It's a shame, really - Creative didn't used to be like this.

It's a big reason why I try to recommend Auzen's hardware more often now, they make use of the X-Fi APUs, their cards have better audio quality and customer service is much better . . . it's like the best of both worlds. They just tend to be pricy.

 

[windbag]

There's another way to "hard" install the drivers . . . I'll look into it, as I can't remember how (it's been years since I've had to), but it might help if you run into headaches later on.

Thanks, imperialreign, if you can, that could be helpful.

Not sure how I can use the latest drivers that are embedded into the faulty executable that won't recognise my card. Perhaps you can enlighten me if you find how to do the "hard" install - I'll be all ears !

 

[imperialreign]

IIRC, this is the way to go for both installing and uninstalling:

Go to C:\program files\creative\sound blaster x-fi\program\setup.exe (if running x64, use program files (x86))

That's the "back-door" installer. you can use it to uninstall/install the drivers. Select the box that reads "overwrite existing" or "delete all shared." IIRC, this will repair the driver installation with the existing drivers, or remove them entirelly.

It won't handle any of the other software apps that are installed alongside the drivers - just the drivers themselves. Other apps will have to be un-installed manually via the control panel and such.

I'd still recommend Driver Sweeper afterwards. Sometimes you have to run DS, then after it's done cleaning, have it go through again. Occasionally Creative's stuff wants to hold on for dear life. Make sure to run it in WIN Safe Mode, too (hit F5 during boot time, right after the HDDs are read to get to the WIN boot options menu).