Third GK104-based Single GPU Graphics Card SKU Detailed

[atticus14]

I disagree. Theres plenty of people who are comfortable enough to "take a chance" installing a videocard but dont know jack about the hardware. Really from personal experience I'm amazed that I have friends who know how to build computers or do significant upgrades but dont really know jack about the hardware besides buzz words. Lots of people have the ability to follow directions but not a lot of people care about researching parts, they just tend to take a recommendation or buy whatever they think is good/cheap enough.

 

[N3M3515]

I'm so depressed with these motherfucking prices............

Where's my $200 mid range HD 7870 v GTX 660Ti . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[zomg]

I'm so depressed with these motherfucking prices............

Where's my $200 mid range HD 7870 v GTX 660Ti . . . . . . . . . . .

don't hold your breath until christmas

 

[blibba]

you even said Nvidia wants people who think they need more ram to go to the next tier...

Yes, but not because Nvidia doesn't have a 2GB card in that tier, but because, given that they can afford 3 1080p monitors or whatever, they'll be looking to spend more anyway.

also if consumers can decide their "budget" based on weighing in factors its not really a budget. A budget should be a set amount and cant go any higher;

So if your budget is $200, but one of your options is only $180, that lower price wouldn't be weighed up in your buying decision?

if you can randomly go "erm i think ill spend 150 more for the next tier" then your not really on a budget or your going in debt.

I don't believe I ever suggested that.

 

[Inceptor]

I disagree. Theres plenty of people who are comfortable enough to "take a chance" installing a videocard but dont know jack about the hardware. Really from personal experience I'm amazed that I have friends who know how to build computers or do significant upgrades but dont really know jack about the hardware besides buzz words. Lots of people have the ability to follow directions but not a lot of people care about researching parts, they just tend to take a recommendation or buy whatever they think is good/cheap enough.

One of the most common mistakes people make is to assume that their circle of friends and acquaintances constitute the majority opinion or level of ability. It's an extension of the bias that causes people to think that 'everyone else' either operates at the same level of intelligence as them, or that they're complete morons.
Most average, non-technical computer owners/users are at the level of the much maligned average Apple Macintosh user; they want something that does what they want it to do, that is comfortable to use, and that is not a hassle.
Most computer users are not in their teens, twenties, or thirties, they're in their fourties, fifties, and sixties as they statistically make up a larger percentage of the population.
Most new personal computer purchases are Laptops; people want mobility and ease of use. They don't want a large clunky box underneath or on top of their desk, they want to sit on their couch, lie on their bed, sprawl out on the floor, or sit at their kitchen/dining room table and use their computer in the most comfortable way possible.

 

[N3M3515]

don't hold your breath until christmas

Honestly i don't think that even then you could get a 7870 for $200, maybe $250 if you're lucky.

AMD set the pricebar so high that a 7870 for $250 (which is the price it should have started at) is a "bargain".

Long gone are the days where a X870 started at $240

 

[Inceptor]

Honestly i don't think that even then you could get a 7870 for $200, maybe $250 if you're lucky.

AMD set the pricebar so high that a 7870 for $250 (which is the price it should have started at) is a "bargain".

Long gone are the days where a X870 started at $240

Well, at the moment, at newegg.ca/newegg.com, 7850s range from $250-270.
Once the 660Ti, 660, 650 cards are released, that price will drop. But I don't think it'll drop to ~$200 for a 7870 until they're almost EOL; at the moment a 6870 still sells for $175-200 new.

 

[N3M3515]

Well, at the moment, at newegg.ca/newegg.com, 7850s range from $250-270.
Once the 660Ti, 660, 650 cards are released, that price will drop. But I don't think it'll drop to ~$200 for a 7870 until they're almost EOL; at the moment a 6870 still sells for $175-200 new.

When was the last time you saw a mid range card at $350?

At the moment $155 for a 6870, yeah it's been at $175 avg like for more than 8 months now.(an at this very moment that EOL card has in newegg 11 diferent versions, all of them available ranging from $155 to $222, not including rebates)
When was the las time you saw a X850 at $250 and a X870 for $350? (excluding 5870 and 5850 that where highend when released)
3850 at release $180 . 3870 $220
4770 at release $170 . 4850 $200 (note that 4850 was the second fastest amd card at the time)
5770 at release $170 . 5850 $260 (again, amd second fastest card, if we compare to present it would be to $450 release price of the 7950, even at $380 still $130 bucks more)
6850 at release $180 . 6870 $240

.....and then magically 7850 at release $250 & 7870 $350 LOLZ! WTF??
Do you understand what i'm trying to say?

 

[blibba]

.....and then magically 7850 at release $250 & 7870 $350 LOLZ! WTF??
Do you understand what i'm trying to say?

• Limited supply of 28nm.
• Desire to clear existing large inventories of 40nm products.
• Lack of competition for 28nm mid-range.

 

[Inceptor]

When was the last time you saw a mid range card at $350?

At the moment $155 for a 6870, yeah it's been at $175 avg like for more than 8 months now.(an at this very moment that EOL card has in newegg 11 diferent versions, all of them available ranging from $155 to $222, not including rebates)
When was the las time you saw a X850 at $250 and a X870 for $350? (excluding 5870 and 5850 that where highend when released)
3850 at release $180 . 3870 $220
4770 at release $170 . 4850 $200 (note that 4850 was the second fastest amd card at the time)
5770 at release $170 . 5850 $260 (again, amd second fastest card, if we compare to present it would be to $450 release price of the 7950, even at $380 still $130 bucks more)
6850 at release $180 . 6870 $240

.....and then magically 7850 at release $250 & 7870 $350 LOLZ! WTF??
Do you understand what i'm trying to say?

You seem to think that a company has to charge what you think is appropriate. If only that were so, so many of us would be happy with our cheap and good technology.
Blibba mentioned some very good reasons for the pricing. And don't get caught up with absolutes, 'reasons' are not a consumer's reasons, 'reasons' are AMD's and NV's reasons for making as much money as possible at all times.

To partially reiterate Blibba, in more detail:
1)Any pricing from previous generations is rendered meaningless now, the economy is not as bad as it was for the 4000-6000 series. This means they can charge more money on initial introduction to market.

2)TSMC has not had a smooth rollout on its 28nm process; we don't know how successful the wafer manufacturing is, how many errors, how many unusable dies, but we know it's not absolutely great. We also don't know how much TSMC is charging AMD and NV.

3)They can charge more money if they don't have counterpart gpus from NV and capitalize on the system builders and upgraders with low purchase-impulse control.

No point constantly crying about it, man.

 

[RigRebel]

Can I call it or can I call it... (stated on this thread creator's previous thread - awhile ago- about the GTX 660 Ti that it was going to be GK -104 )

Post from German website 9 hours ago speculating or stating (can't tell which it's a translation) that the GTX 660 TI will be the smallest GK 104 chip..

Here's the link > http://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/news/hardware/grafikkarten/22377-nvidia-geforce-gtx-660-ti-dritter-gk104-ableger-in-planung.html


Here's first page translation.
Even if only NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690's tonight officially unveiled the "Kepler" is far from being complete generation. That will supervene the GeForce GTX 680 (Hardwareluxx test) and a smaller version is no big secret. The GeForce GTX 670 (Ti) finally haunts for several weeks through the Internet. Only this morning we were able to make a supposedly real photo of a reference map identified. As the rumor mill always well served will now have learned to the Californians to the GeForce GTX 690, GeForce GTX 680 and GeForce GTX 670 (Ti) and a fourth branch of the GK104 plan based on GPU. This will later move to 249 U.S. dollars on the counter, compared to the existing NVIDIA line-up but have to accept some compromises.

The NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 (Ti) is still at least about 1152 CUDA cores and 1536MB of GDDR5 video memory along with 192-bit interface have
While the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 (Ti), only one unit-SMX should be removed, should be taken in smaller GeForce GTX 660 (Ti) are two such groups, the shader red pencil to the victim. Thus the smallest GK104 representatives were at least six units and SMX-1152 to CUDA cores and 96 texture units receive. The memory interface will also be curtailed, and include only 192 data lines. Thus, the number of grid amplifiers of 32 would reduce to 24 ROPs. For this is the GeForce GTX 660 (Ti), but require only one additional connection to the electricity supply. A single 6-pin PCI Express connector to meet her.
Reported to be NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 670 (Ti) follow in the first two weeks of May. When the fourth version to be supplied later in the group is still open.


Ops.. ps just now read previous posters. looks like AMD fanboys are still at it trying to defend AMD lol .. hey what happened with the GTX 680 ? lmao

 

[N3M3515]

You seem to think that a company has to charge what you think is appropriate. If only that were so, so many of us would be happy with our cheap and good technology.
Blibba mentioned some very good reasons for the pricing. And don't get caught up with absolutes, 'reasons' are not a consumer's reasons, 'reasons' are AMD's and NV's reasons for making as much money as possible at all times.

To partially reiterate Blibba, in more detail:
1)Any pricing from previous generations is rendered meaningless now, the economy is not as bad as it was for the 4000-6000 series. This means they can charge more money on initial introduction to market.

2)TSMC has not had a smooth rollout on its 28nm process; we don't know how successful the wafer manufacturing is, how many errors, how many unusable dies, but we know it's not absolutely great. We also don't know how much TSMC is charging AMD and NV.

3)They can charge more money if they don't have counterpart gpus from NV and capitalize on the system builders and upgraders with low purchase-impulse control.

No point constantly crying about it, man.

Those reasons are not enough for such rip off prices. Stop justifying it man it's getting lame now...

PD: No point constantly defending/justifying escandalous prices, man

 

[Inceptor]

Those reasons are not enough for such rip off prices. Stop justifying it man it's getting lame now...

PD: No point constantly defending/justifying escandalous prices, man

You seem to understand the individual words, but when they're grouped together to form more complex constructions you can't translate properly in your mind.
You didn't understand what I said... :shadedshu

There's nothing for me to defend.
Nvidia does what I described as well as AMD.
Every tech company that sells consumer products does it and has always done it.
You seem to be ignorant of what goes on in the world beyond playing computer games and sitting in front of your computer. The economics of the world at-large play a role in everything, including how computer components are priced.

Yes, it sucks, I agree. It would be so much easier if things stayed the same and companies never raised prices for their newer products, whatever they happened to be, but that's not how the world works.
Things are not simple, safe, and predictable, it only seems that way when you are young.

It's time to grow up and learn what 'trolling' means, my friend.

 

[blibba]

making as much money as possible at all times

This is the bit you seem to have missed.

 

[N3M3515]

It would be so much easier if things stayed the same and companies never raised prices for their newer products, whatever they happened to be, but that's not how the world works.

Everything has a limit, including price abuse and price fixing.
If you build a pencil, it costs you $1, and you sell it at $2, you are getting a good profit.
The case now, is that they are selling the same pencil for $20.

And there are a lot of naive people that justifies that prices because 28nm, no competition, etc. The fact is that 40nm had a LOT of problems and you never saw a mid range card at $350. So, no i'm not shuting up, and i'll continue pointing that out because while it is ok to up the prices for those reasons, they're going to an extreme. Just like HDD manofacturers.

And for the record, i do spend a lot of time "sitting in front of a computer", because i have a job and that is programming in front of a computer.

 

[blibba]

Everything has a limit, including price abuse and price fixing.
If you build a pencil, it costs you $1, and you sell it at $2, you are getting a good profit.
The case now, is that they are selling the same pencil for $20.

And there are a lot of naive people that justifies that prices because 28nm, no competition, etc. The fact is that 40nm had a LOT of problems and you never saw a mid range card at $350. So, no i'm not shuting up, and i'll continue pointing that out because while it is ok to up the prices for those reasons, they're going to an extreme. Just like HDD manofacturers.

You'll continue pointing out that things are more expensive. Great, good for you. What on earth do you expect to achieve?

When we "justify" or give reasons for high prices, don't mistake us for proposing some kind of moral justification - yes, it's terrible that shit's so overpriced and big companies have such massive profit margins. Under the right conditions (say a wood shortage or a monopoly in production), you would find pencil's at $20. And that'd be ridiculous too. But it'd also be companies behaving optimally. Just like they were when pencils were $2. Only difference is now they have an opportunity to make far bigger profits at our expense, and of course they'll take that opportunity. They are no more evil than you are evil when you fail to donate your earnings above the national average to those poorer than yourself. Love it or loathe it, that's just the world we live in.

 

[RigRebel]

Those reasons are not enough for such rip off prices. Stop justifying it man it's getting lame now...

PD: No point constantly defending/justifying escandalous prices, man

lol if you have to skimp pennies from mom for second rate products by all means go ahead but $319.00 for @1100 cuda cores is not too much money for me. Infact, I'm a gonna buy two broke betty! lol Especially since one will beat the pants off the the 7870 which is priced higher.

i think you're the one that is constantly defending the wrong position... if you're talking about nivida having to high of priced cards then what the heck is the 7870 ? lol the proposed GK 104 660ti has been stated way back in Feb. as projected around $319.00 that's about 30-40 less for than the low end 7870s.... lol do some more homework!

PS.... if you want to rant about prices of GPUs and how they effect the market which makes your AMD better than do it on a freaking thread created for that NOT THIS ONE .. you're taking the thread off subject. This thread is about the GK104 based processors and NOT a soapbox for you to jump on so you can scream .. "the end is near Nivida to high run to AMD" lolz fail
GET ON SUBJECT or TAKE YOUR AMD FAN BOY STUFF TO A THREAD WHERE IT WANTED!
consider it a warning before moderate contact.

Ps this is what the 3rd time i've run in to you.. the last time you were dead wrong about omega drivers being vapor ware and about 5 long time users and the site admin came in to prove it lol GIVE IT UP

 

[N3M3515]

When we "justify" or give reasons for high prices, don't mistake us for proposing some kind of moral justification - yes, it's terrible that shit's so overpriced and big companies have such massive profit margins.

That's what i wanted to know.

Back on topic, anyone thinks this card could outperform the 7870?

 

[RigRebel]

That's what i wanted to know.

Back on topic, anyone thinks this card could outperform the 7870?

me
Provided they don't have set back. rumor mill is they are... Hey in all fairness if AMD can build a better mouse trap i'll buy it. but i want good tessallations without DX9 sacrifice for legacy games and i want the FPS.

 

[blibba]

In terms of processing power, the 1536 cores of the GTX680 just about beat the 2048 of the 7970. So that's a 1:1.33 ratio for an NV win. This card has 1152 to the 7870's 1280, a ratio of 1:1.11, suggesting a bigger margin of victory. Of course the 7870 has more bandwidth, but then so does the 7970 vs. the 680.

 

[RigRebel]

In terms of processing power, the 1536 cores of the GTX680 just about beat the 2048 of the 7970. So that's a 1:1.33 ratio for an NV win. This card has 1152 to the 7870's 1280, a ratio of 1.11, suggesting a bigger margin of victory. Of course the 7870 has more bandwidth, but then so does the 7970 vs. the 680.

agreed, lets' talk more about this bandwith because i myself am seeing reports of 192Bit for GTX 660 (non ti) and i think @256 rumored for GTX 660 ti. Seems wierd seeing how the GTX 560 TI 448 core was way up at @320bit but I'm chalking this up for more effeciency for the GX 104 and GX 106 660s thus less horsepower needed ... Comments ?

PS .. on another avenue. I'd really like to see what the new txAA (I think it's called that) is like on the GTX 660-660ti.. if it is really as beautiful as it looks on the GTX 680 without decreasing FPS at all, as Nvidia boasts, then that will be a another big plus for me in Nivida's favor.

 

[blibba]

Fermi had some issues with memory management that meant firstly that it couldn't run GDDR5 at such high speeds and secondly that it was inefficient with bandwidth. Kepler appears to have overcome these issues.

Bandwidth seems to be one of those things that doesn't matter so much once you have enough - observe the difference between the 192 and 256 bit versions of the GTX460.

All that said, it seems to me that 256-bit is already pushing it for these performance levels, so we'll see.

 

[RigRebel]

Fermi had some issues with memory management that meant firstly that it couldn't run GDDR5 at such high speeds and secondly that it was inefficient with bandwidth. Kepler appears to have overcome these issues.

Bandwidth seems to be one of those things that doesn't matter so much once you have enough - observe the difference between the 192 and 256 bit versions of the GTX460.

All that said, it seems to me that 256-bit is already pushing it for these performance levels, so we'll see.

... yeah i was kind of thinking that same thing just not put together in clear facts
=effeciency swing

thanks for reply

really the couple of things that are keeping me more towards the GK 104 660 ti are things like
1. the new AA, that looks sweet.
2. the four independent monitors off a single card with 2D/3D off same card aswell. (glad they caught up to AMD on that one. that's one i'll give AMD the props on first)
3. Tessallations without loosing too much DX9 for older RTSs i still play every now and then. (more or less for DX11 games/future proffing)
4. And price.
I'm sure FPS will be close to current 7870 offerings.

 

[Casecutter]

I think we all want this shrink to trend like all recent TSMC node process changes, where chip reduction improved price per chip and that got passed along to use consumers'. This time TSMC said, "Sorry this time no real price adjustment". That basically wiped the normal pricing advantage of moving to a new shrink. I think Nvidia might have a slight advantage in GK104 die-size performance, but wonder as to the clocks they can garner from cutting out entire graphics processing cluster that provides the advantages from the more challenging HG HkMG process. AMD stuck with a straightforward 28Nm LP production, and prices seem high at first, but as we now see with the 7950/7970 there’s room to wiggle, once Nvidia has cards to lay out.

We might see a GTX660(Ti) like a 7850 (who knows) and asking $270 upon release, I don’t see many of that variant encroaching into the 7870 it will bee a volume leader and pricing will be agressive.

The real question is where, what, and how many GK104 can Nvidia mix in the $300-450 opening? Sound like they have a GTX670 that’s pretty much a full chip disabling only one SMX units, but I’m doubt with supplying it with “boost clock”. The question I keep trying to get a consensus on is can Nvidia provide the components and PCB to offering dynamic clock support at say $400? I see just them going with traditional approach; holding to 950 MHz top FTW limit, because I think they’d likely want to hold to two 6-pins. While another scenario is they skip the "Ti" on the GTX 660 (discussed above) and disable some other sections (more SMX units?) and insert another GTX660 that has the Ti? I almost think they need 4 variants to cover the spread and get full use of GK104 yields.

 

[RigRebel]

I think we all want this shrink to trend like all recent TSMC node process changes, where chip reduction improved price per chip and that got passed along to use consumers'. This time TSMC said, "Sorry this time no real price adjustment". That basically wiped the normal pricing advantage of moving to a new shrink. I think Nvidia might have a slight advantage in GK104 die-size performance, but wonder as to the clocks they can garner from cutting out entire graphics processing cluster that provides the advantages from the more challenging HG HkMG process. AMD stuck with a straightforward 28Nm LP production, and prices seem high at first, but as we now see with the 7950/7970 there’s room to wiggle, once Nvidia has cards to lay out.

We might see a GTX660(Ti) like a 7850 (who knows) and asking $270 upon release, I don’t see many of that variant encroaching into the 7870 it will bee a volume leader and pricing will be agressive.

The real question is where, what, and how many GK104 can Nvidia mix in the $300-450 opening? Sound like they have a GTX670 that’s pretty much a full chip disabling only one SMX units, but I’m doubt with supplying it with “boost clock”. The question I keep trying to get a consensus on is can Nvidia provide the components and PCB to offering dynamic clock support at say $400? I see just them going with traditional approach; holding to 950 MHz top FTW limit, because I think they’d likely want to hold to two 6-pins. While another scenario is they skip the "Ti" on the GTX 660 (discussed above) and disable some other sections (more SMX units?) and insert another GTX660 that has the Ti? I almost think they need 4 variants to cover the spread and get full use of GK104 yields.

I believe the GTX 670 or 670 ti is projected to have dynamic clocking at @ $400.00 from what I've read and I'm not sure but that german post (see my post at top of this page) may say the GK 104 660 Ti might as well. I'm hoping the GTX 660 Ti lives up to the 7870, or possibly out perform, and I agree with you 100% for stating what we want is more for less. The thing i'm wondering, and this maybe what you're saying as well, is the new GTX 660 Ti with @1100 "shader" cores going to respectively out gun the previous GTX 560 Tis having 448 Cuda Cores... on paper seeing the words @"1100 Cores" for a GTX 660 Ti makes my eyes jump out of my head but am I missing the preverbal meat ? Are they cleverly re-phrasing the core nomenclature or like you said is "cutting entire graphics clusters" going to equate into @ the same performance?

Reminds me of how Intel and AMD started Doubling and Quadrupling RAM FSB numbers for both ways of throughput and Dual channel throughput to make it look better.
Am I wrong or way off base?
Ps forgive me if I'm miss quoting related press on GTX 660 Ti. I'm at work and trying to remember without searching previously read related info.