General discussion based on Extreme Overclocking

[EarthDog]

The fan dissipates the gas so you can see levels on LN2 or alcohol when using dry ice

Its main use is to keep that cold away from the board/pot to slow the build up of condensation and ice. It does help with seeing inside the pot I suppose, but mostly we use the temperature gauge to judge when to add more LN2 if we are not full pot benching (a la AMD and IB) as most of the time, at least in the pots I use on CPUs that have CB's, there is none in there and you are using the properties of the copper to hold some of the temperatures until you load the CPU.

I personally don't use alcohol when I was on DI. It only allows temps to be in the -30 or so range versus the correct material, acetone, which goes down to -79. I also have never added acetone to a pot once I had the correct amount in.

 

[torgoth]

is lapping CPUs & heatsinks still something relevant or has it become a thing of the past?

thanks in advance

 

[EarthDog]

IMO, its a thing of the past... most people dont need to do it as there isnt a need to get the every degree C for most users. Also, the concave IHS that was there on what, i7 920 (Nehalem) isnt nearly as bad or there anymore, period.

Now, for some silly reason, people risk their chips in a worse way by delidding IB CPUs... yikes... scary for almost no gains (depending on the situation).

 

[Sasqui]

Now, for some silly reason, people risk their chips in a worse way by delidding IB CPUs... yikes... scary for almost no gains (depending on the situation).

Temps my friend, temps. 15c drop from delidding, another 2-5c naked. Gave me stability at 4.8 Ghz with managable temps.

 

[EarthDog]

Temps my friend, temps. 15c drop from delidding, another 2-5c naked. Gave me stability at 4.8 Ghz with managable temps.

Not going to get in to it after this...(not the thread for it).

I disagree with the process as there are little gains clockspeed wise in most situations. I personally ONLY suggest voiding the warranty of your $330 CPU and taking a chance at the worst paper weight ever, if you had voltage headroom AND were temp limited. I wouldnt touch it solely to lower temps. Not me buddy. You all, where for most it doesnt matter can take that risk, as well as bios flashing your GPUs, for little reason... The gains for most just don't outweigh the risk IMO.

To each their own though.

 

[torgoth]

Now, for some silly reason, people risk their chips in a worse way by delidding IB CPUs... yikes... scary for almost no gains (depending on the situation).

delidding? how why? do they apply a new "lid"? or if no how do they put thermal paste on the delidded cpu?

PS: sorry FireKillerGR I went a bit off on your thread...

 

[FireKillerGR]

Temps my friend, temps. 15c drop from delidding, another 2-5c naked. Gave me stability at 4.8 Ghz with managable temps.

Thread is about extreme overclocking... What you gain cant be more than 100 mhz and still that is the best case scenario.

PS. CPU with removed IHS never survived more than a week based on people who did it. So dont compare extreme overclocking with ambient cooling oc

 

[Sasqui]

Not going to get in to it after this...(not the thread for it).

I disagree with the process as there are little gains clockspeed wise in most situations. I personally ONLY suggest voiding the warranty of your $330 CPU and taking a chance at the worst paper weight ever, if you had voltage headroom AND were temp limited. I wouldnt touch it solely to lower temps. Not me buddy. You all, where for most it doesnt matter can take that risk, as well as bios flashing your GPUs, for little reason... The gains for most just don't outweigh the risk IMO.

To each their own though.

No problem if you don't agree with delidding, I'm not trying to sell it. Just as with running IB chip at 1.7v - 2.0v under LN2 or Phase to get 6 Ghz, it's all part of the hobby. I was just glad to get to 4.8 with temps under 80c... my goal was 5Ghz but nothing ventured nothing gained. My chip is fine.

 

[FireKillerGR]

Temps my friend, temps. 15c drop from delidding, another 2-5c naked. Gave me stability at 4.8 Ghz with managable temps.

No problem if you don't agree with delidding, I'm not trying to sell it. Just as with running IB chip at 1.7v - 2.0v under LN2 or Phase to get 6 Ghz, it's all part of the hobby. I was just glad to get to 4.8 with temps under 80c... my goal was 5Ghz but nothing ventured nothing gained. My chip is fine.

Not the same for sure, you can RMA your dead chip if it died under ln2, you cant if it is delidded.
Delidding a cpu seems ok for air and watet but as I said most processors die after a while under xtreme coolimg. :/

 

[Sasqui]

you cant if it is delidded.

Well aware of that going into it and I'd do it again for the sake of hobby!

 

[m1dg3t]

Not personally into "Extreme" OC but more is always better!

RE deliding: It was so easy to do, i don't understand the hang up/s? If you are using a vice or box cutter razor to delid, NEWSFLASH! You're doing it wrong! LoL

An old school shaving razor and about 3 minutes and 49 seconds and you have a topless CPU. I was delidded before dousing my spliff

But yes, deliding for extreme cold is a no - no, from what i've seen people post anyways...

It kinda funny to me that some guys who use vmods & extreme colds in search of every MHz suggest to others who are using lesser cooling that delidding in a search for max MHz is a waste... Does. Not. Compute.

 

[EarthDog]

Its pretty clear, to me and in my post as well as FireKGR, the reasons... take a re-read of those posts?

1. VOIDING THE WARRANTY. When I pay my $25 to do what I do, I can return it while keeping my ethics in check. You delidders have NO CHANCE to return that CPU.. and if you try that is an unethical move to me.
2. Gains are just not worth it to me to void your warranty and take a chance at bricking the CPU. While its not high chance, its significantly more than NONE if you dont touch the CPU. Like anyone notices, outside of benchmarking a 100-200Mhz gain...

The risk does not make up for the reward in a lot of cases (to me). Thats it.

anyway, I digress...again. LOL!

 

[m1dg3t]

Its pretty clear, to me and in my post as well as FireKGR, the reasons... take a re-read of those posts?

1. VOIDING THE WARRANTY. When I pay my $25 to do what I do, I can return it while keeping my ethics in check. You delidders have NO CHANCE to return that CPU.. and if you try that is an unethical move to me.
2. Gains are just not worth it to me to void your warranty and take a chance at bricking the CPU. While its not high chance, its significantly more than NONE if you dont touch the CPU. Like anyone notices, outside of benchmarking a 100-200Mhz gain...

The risk does not make up for the reward in a lot of cases (to me).

anyway, I digress...again. LOL!

You mad?

I thought this was an "Extreme" overclocking thread? Pissing on a warranty & taking a razor to a brand new chip seems a tad extreme, no? At least. Why aren't you raping FireKiller for soldering a daughterboard to his GFX in order to enable high voltage? Or bitching out all those who hardmod their MoBos to supply more volts?

Some people

I digress.

Edit: In ~15 years i have NEVER had a CPU fail. Never.

 

[FireKillerGR]

You mad?

I thought this was an "Extreme" overclocking thread? Pissing on a warranty & taking a razor to a brand new chip seems a tad extreme, no? At least. Why aren't you raping FireKiller for soldering a daughterboard to his GFX in order to enable high voltage? Or bitching out all those who hardmod their MoBos to supply more volts?

Some people

I digress.

A) I dont want anyone to rape me... LOL xD

B) This mod was done for the AOOC and PRO OC Cup. We did the all in move
Now we will go in Moscow to compete for the finals.

C) Nobody mods mobos anymore, no need.

 

[cadaveca]

Not all users are going to think of "Extreme" as the same thing. Might have been more produnt to lavel this as "LN2 OC" or "Sub-Zero OC", not "Extreme".

Aircooling and watrercooling can be "extreme too".


Labels suck, m'kay?

 

[m1dg3t]

A) I dont want anyone to rape me... LOL xD

I was being facetious. I don't want anyone to rape you either!

B) This mod was done for the AOOC and PRO OC Cup. We did the all in move

Now we will go in Moscow to compete for the finals.

Just using it as an example as it voids warranty on a brand new 500 euro card, not trying to knock your mod Good luck & please share results when you're done

C) Nobody mods mobos anymore, no need.

Again, was just making an example.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

[m1dg3t]

Not all users are going to think of "Extreme" as the same thing. Might have been more produnt to lavel this as "LN2 OC" or "Sub-Zero OC", not "Extreme".

Aircooling and watrercooling can be "extreme too".


Labels suck, m'kay?

@ bold

Agree with title suggestion

I'm not trying to say watercooling is extreme, even though you can sub 0 with LC, just was commenting on Sasquis POV and the subsequent "Fallout" it created...

My NON extreme, overclocking self will now depart the thread. Good day to all and apologies for diluting your elite thread with my non elite self

 

[cadaveca]

your elite thread with my non elite self

That's why extreme clocking isn't all that popular in the first place, by it's own nature, it IS very elitist. FireKilerGR's comment "Can't stream video when other teams are chasing your scores..." ...so he feels he cannot share since someone may find something in that video that gives THEM the edge instead of HIM...I aksed Earthdog about something, he said "oh, it's listed on our forum, register and you'll get he help"...and then..."Oh, it's only viewable by our bench team, you cannot see, sorry". W-T-F!!!


And then he expects me to help him....?:shadedshu


Yes, yes he does.

When I realized this many years ago, that this sort of thing was unavoidable, I left the scene. I want us to be a community that shares info, not a bunch of geeks huddled over LN2 pots in the their basement, shielding their scores from scrutiny.

It's just too competitive for it to be any other way. There's no magic to Extreme clocking...you are just using the tools provided by the OEMs in the first place(especially since hard-modding isn't needed by FireKillerGr's own admission), and the rest is part of the silicon lottery. Not that I am trying to belittle sub-zero clocking, far from it, as it is a rather time intensive thing, and does take some skill in honeing your trouble-shooting abilities. There are a few guys out there that continually bring new tweaks forward...they all work at these companies that make the hardware. And if they don't...well...though luck. Competition means that good guys face jealousy when maybe they shouldn't.

 

[m1dg3t]

That's why extreme clocking isn't all that popular in the first place, by it's own nature, it IS very elitist. FireKilerGR's comment "Can't stream video when other teams are chasing your scores..." ...so he feels he cannot share since someone may find something that gives THEM the edge instead of HIM...


When I realized this many years ago, that this sort of thing was unavoidable, I left the scene. I want us to be a community that shares info, not a bunch of geeks huddled over LN2 pots in the their basement, shielding their scores from scrutiny.

It's just too competitive for it to be any other way. There's no magic to Extreme clocking...you are just using the tools provided by the OEMs in the first place, and the rest is part of the silicon lottery. Not that I am trying to belittle sub-zero clocking, far from it, as it is a rather time intensive thing, and does take some skill in honeing your trouble-shooting abilities.

That is the joy to ALL OVERCLOCKING. Taking what is available and applying ALL known means to achieve max fequency. Some people have acces to LN2/DICE and other forms of extreme cooling to help them exploit the silicone to the MAX! Others are less fortunate and are limited to more "standard" tools to coax MHz from sand & electrons. You'd think an extreme OC would last more than a few minutes, right? Right?

Anyways, i'm out.

 

[EarthDog]

That's why extreme clocking isn't all that popular in the first place, by it's own nature, it IS very elitist. FireKilerGR's comment "Can't stream video when other teams are chasing your scores..." ...so he feels he cannot share since someone may find something in that video that gives THEM the edge instead of HIM...I aksed Earthdog about something, he said "oh, it's listed on our forum, register and you'll get he help"...and then..."Oh, it's only viewable by our bench team, you cannot see, sorry". W-T-F!!!


And then he expects me to help him....?:shadedshu


Yes, yes he does.

What the heck are you talking about? I don't recall asking you for any benchmarking tricks when I'm under extreme cooling (or ambient for that matter)... I have asked advice on boards before, sure, but am really struggling to (remember?) figure out when I asked you for advice on extreme overclocking... specifically in the context of tricks/efficiencies of benchmarks as that is your talking point. You have been out of the game so long, I wouldn't think of you to be a better resource than what I have available already. Not that you are remotely a bad resource, but I have others at my finger tips with more up to date knowledge that I lean on (our team, and PURE defectors that were on our team). Perhaps a random question maybe? But dear god your wording makes me feel like I lean on you for sub ambient benchmark efficiency advice when that couldnt be further from the truth. . I ask for help with boards I am reviewing and your experience with it. Not sure what one thing has to do with the other honestly...

Yes, we do have a private section for the benchmarking team (there is a public section too). Yes, that private section does contain a repository of all the tricks we learned internally (none of which work for any company that matters, note). Some of those help us climb the team ladder @ hwbot certainly (7th in the world! LOL!). If we didn't keep the tricks we found out a secret this hobby/hwbot would become even more what you dont like about it, those with the most money (to bin hardware) win. Those tricks that we learned help our team compete with daddy dollars and sponsored people, that, not sure if you know, have their own group now, so that point is kind of dead. The other still remains, LOL!

As we have discussed before, I agree to a certain extent that it should be more transparent. However, like anything competitive, like this is with Hwbot, there will always be secrets. What is the point if everyone knows all the secrets? I mentioned it above, then it comes down to money and binning whereas the efficiency tricks mitigate that to a certain extent. I can be more competitive overall knowing things others do not without having to spends thousands to bin CPUs and GPUs.

I vaguely recall you asking me something about a benchmarking trick or tweak, and that being the result. But I didnt share the answer with you? I also vaguely recall that. I would share it with you as you are completely harmless. That doesn't make sense I wouldn't give you an answer to a specific question if I knew it.

 

[cadaveca]

Not sure what one thing has to do with the other honestly...

Help and sharing is just that, no matter the context. the fact you think it's different is why my comments seem strange to you.

I vaguely recall you asking me something about a benchmarking trick or tweak, and that being the result. But I didnt share the answer with you? I also vaguely recall that. I would share it with you as you are completely harmless. That doesn't make sense I wouldn't give you an answer to a specific question if I knew it.

Don't take it personally. Really. What I describe is just how the scene works(which you just basically affirmed), and really, I do not see it as a problem...just the nature of the game.

I mean, you know me, I care not for such things, really.

 

[EarthDog]

Competitive benchmarking and the tricks we learned there have nothing to do with asking about a board you are reviewing that I have, correct. The fact that you hold that against me is perplexing, yes.

You care enough to hang me personally in public over nothing...

 

[cadaveca]

Competitive benchmarking and the tricks we learned there have nothing to do with asking about a board you are reviewing that I have, correct. The fact that you hold that against me is perplexing, yes.

I don't hold it against you...but info sharing is info sharing. To me, anyway. Since you are part of a team with that access, your perspective on this topic may not relate to what users outside of that scene may understand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining here.

You care enough to hang me personally in public over nothing...

I'm not "hanging you", you admitted that the "event" took place..I don't think it matters, just part of reality. It's no big deal. If you feel that I am "hanging you", perhaps you should re-assess some things. Nobody here is really going to care about some conversations we have or whether we ask each other for help and tips.

 

[EarthDog]

Just to clear the air, I DID give you, and I think in public here in the thread. Here is a SS of my PM to you...

Retraction please? LOL!



I care that your recollection of the events wasn't accurate more than anything.



If I didn't have anything to do with it, leave my name out of it and be sure to get the story straight next time.

 

[cadaveca]

Just to clear the air, I DID give you, and I think this place, the information in the thread. Here is a SS of my PM to you...

View attachment 51431

You don't have anything to do with it...you were merely an example of how things may not all be out in the open. IF you want to take it to a personal level..well, that's not something that we accept for public posting.

No retraction, my opinion stands as is.

See, this is my point. Here we are "bickering" about pointless stuff. That's the extreme scene, through and through. It has nothing to do with you personally...at all.

If I didn't have anything to do with it, leave my name out of it and get the story straight next time.

Well, you do play a role though. You wanted to help, and you did, but really, any other user wouldn't get that info so easily. They'd not even know where to look. You are skewing the events as they transpired, not me. I just related them in the order they happened, not the final conclusion.

The scene is buillt around "secrets", that really aren't that secret. I find it amusing.

If your bench team didn't have a private section with tweaks, there'd be no issue. The fact that being a member of the forum doesn't immediately provide access to the info is where the problem is, not in what you did. You technically side-stepped how your team has stuff organized, and helped me out by answering my question, sure, but the fact that you told me first, to just register, and I'd find what I needed, to only have to then reply again saying, no, it's locked up tight and only our bench team can see...well..says it all. I am not skewing anything here. My story is perfectly straight. That info is still there, hidden in a private forum, that only bench team members can access.

As far as I know, here, there are no hidden forums. There is no bench team. The only thing users cannot see is our unpublished reviews, and a section for the mods to discuss things in. Very much a different thing than what is offered by your site and many others with clocking teams. I don't see that as an issue. But it IS fact. It also prevents us from being able to grow the "Extreme" scene as big as it could be. A couple hundred users around the globe having this "private" hobby is no big deal, but it could be thousands.

The potential remains...join the wrong team, you're SOL.