AMD Radeon R9 Nano Review by TPU...Not

[cadaveca]

Straw man argument.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Unquestionably AMD have had problem, made mistakes. deserved to be at the wrong side of a reviewers conclusion.....

Yet Nvidia's problems are far less reported, they have issues with Drivers right now, you would not know it outside of their own forums which has been going crazy about issues these past few months.

Aside from that AMD have put a lot of work and money into a lot of good things, HBM and Mantle to name the most recent, As i have already said Mantle (Now Vulkan) was a pretty big and important thing and yet its reception among almost all reviewers was conspicuously underwhelming or outright dismissive of it.

Ehm, the GTX 970 3.5 GiB issue was heavily reported. The fact Maxwell does async compute synchronously where GCN does async compute asynchronously is also being heavily reported.

Driver issues are nothing new. They're not unique to NVIDIA nor AMD. WDDM 2.0 exposed problems neither side was prepared for. NVIDIA just happened to be less prepared than AMD this time around.

It was hard for reviewers to get excited about Mantle when only a few games support it. The technology ending up in Direct3D 12 and Vulkan was AMD's doing. AMD could have milked that cash cow for a while but elected not to. Personally, I applaud AMD for it but that doesn't help AMD's bottom line.

 

[abundantcores]

Straw man argument.

Call it what you will i'm not wrong.

 

[cadaveca]

Call it what you will i'm not wrong.

If you're wearing rose-coloured glasses, than sure.

And yes, I know how to spell. Welcome to Canada, Eh?

Go back through the past 5 years of motherboard reviews I've done, and see both AMD and NVidia cards used. I dropped AMD cards from my personal rigs because NVidia didn't have the same driver problems. I've seen far less problems on NVidia than AMD (and yes, I still use a 7970 daily, before you even go there). The 7970 is nothing but problematic, my 780 Ti's work great.



That's the thing, most driver problems are highly dependent on complete system configuration, and installed software. You can't exactly pin every problem in video rendering on the videocard. I still have issues with video rendering on the 7970, the same problems I've had for the past 3-4 years that I've had the card.

 

[abundantcores]

If you're wearing rose-coloured glasses, than sure.

So where am i wrong?

 

[arbiter]

Tech Report might of started the frame pacing but Ryan over at PCPerspective took it further collaborating with Nvidia to bring FCAT. If AMD wanted to avoid anyone it would be PCPerspective I would think but he has one and said he would look at it closely from all sides.

Ryan did share all results of the FCAT with AMD so really they did AMD a favor showing them what issue AMD had with CF setup's. If you remember it was going on for years people complained of issues of micro stutter when using CF.

This is AMD knowing that the R9 Nano will be measured extremely close to GTX 970 Mini ITX in 1080p and 1440p and they will not be able to defend the BS $650 price point for the card when the GTX 970 Mini ITX cost $300.

Well even a 4k i bet it will be pretty close as well maybe 10%, gotta remember the settings AMD used to claim the 30% are settings that are shader based settings. They used same settings to compare a 980ti vs fury X when they claimed 20%

What should have been:
Fury X: $550
Fury: $450
R9 Nano: $400
imo

Well Rumored price was starting at 850$. Problem is 2 weeks before hand Nvidia dropped the 980ti on the market for 650$ and that forced AMD to price match. In likely hood AMD is barely even making a profit or even breaking even.

AMD are often expected to be much cheaper than Nvidia by reviewers, regardless of performance, they are often treated as the punch-bag among reviewers,

Well if you look at AMD's offerings and claims last few years, well they have claimed more then they end up giving end user. Most recent one is Fury X claimed 20% faster then 980ti but turned in to being 5-10% slower.

On Mantle, not one reviewer tested that properly, some even went as far as to use the most powerful overclocked CPU they could find and test the least CPU intensive scenario they could and then concluded "Mantle doesn't do anything"
i mean really????????? quite obviously being deliberately dumb for an uneducated reader because they didn't want to upset Intel, Nvidia or Microsoft, or all.....
Mantle doesn't do anything? check this out.....

I think that shows More and Ashes game how BAD AMD's drivers are for DX11. Reason they use super powerful cpu is to eliminate any bottle next of the cpu from the review.

 

[cadaveca]

So where am i wrong?

AMD problems are reported more often because they are more prevalent, and driver releases are less often. Used to be the other way around. That has NOTHING to do with reviewers.

Ryan did share all results of the FCAT with AMD so really they did AMD a favor showing them what issue AMD had with CF setup's. If you remember it was going on for years people complained of issues of micro stutter when using CF.

I was probably the first to complain about it, too. I can find the posts if I look a little.

 

[arbiter]

AMD problems are reported more often because they are more prevalent, and driver releases are less often. Used to be the other way around. That has NOTHING to do with reviewers.

Pretty much any time AMD's PR opens their mouth there is a problem.

 

[cadaveca]

Pretty much any time AMD's PR opens their mouth there is a problem.

Yes and no. AMD's PR is actually doing a really good job in the grand scheme of things, currently, in my opinion. Yes, they have some problems, but every single one of those problems is very obvious. AMD has a huge social media presence, and that's a good thing.

 

[abundantcores]

Ryan did share all results of the FCAT with AMD so really they did AMD a favor showing them what issue AMD had with CF setup's. If you remember it was going on for years people complained of issues of micro stutter when using CF.

Well even a 4k i bet it will be pretty close as well maybe 10%, gotta remember the settings AMD used to claim the 30% are settings that are shader based settings. They used same settings to compare a 980ti vs fury X when they claimed 20%

Well Rumored price was starting at 850$. Problem is 2 weeks before hand Nvidia dropped the 980ti on the market for 650$ and that forced AMD to price match. In likely hood AMD is barely even making a profit or even breaking even.

Well if you look at AMD's offerings and claims last few years, well they have claimed more then they end up giving end user. Most recent one is Fury X claimed 20% faster then 980ti but turned in to being 5-10% slower.

I think that shows More and Ashes game how BAD AMD's drivers are for DX11. Reason they use super powerful cpu is to eliminate any bottle next of the cpu from the review.

AMD DX11 drivers are not as good as Nvidia but having both i know Mantle destroys Nvidia DX11 performance.
Ashes has nothing to do with Mantle, what it does show is problems Nvidia have with DX12 and the fact that despite all the noise about having better DX12 support than AMD they don't have Hardware ASync while AMD do. and that actually matters.

 

[Batou1986]

and that actually matters.

If game devs actually use that feature

 

[abundantcores]

If game devs actually use that feature

Its a good point and there is no way of telling if they will.
One argument is: given AMD own all the consoles which all have their GCN ASync hardware devs will use it.
Another argument is given that AMD only have a 20% PC market share (and falling) with Nvidia owning 80% devs are not going to bother.

 

[arbiter]

AMD DX11 drivers are not as good as Nvidia but having both i know Mantle destroys Nvidia DX11 performance.
Ashes has nothing to do with Mantle, what it does show is problems Nvidia have with DX12 and the fact that despite all the noise about having better DX12 support than AMD they don't have Hardware ASync while AMD do. and that actually matters.

Funny you say it destroy's DX11 in performance but yet no one ever noticed that in reviews. The performance AMD claimed mantle gave them in theif for example using a 290x. My lowly gtx780 at the time was only 2-3fps slower. Mantle never really destroyed DX11, it only looked that way cause AMD's DX11 drivers were so bad.

One argument is: given AMD own all the consoles which all have their GCN ASync hardware devs will use it.
Another argument is given that AMD only have a 20% PC market share (and falling) with Nvidia owning 80% devs are not going to bother.

Another arguement would be cause console hardware is pretty weak compared to most desktops that is why they would use it on a console but cause desktop hardware is so powerful they could turn it off if it makes debugging easier.

 

[Batou1986]

Another argument is given that AMD only have a 20% PC market share (and falling) with Nvidia owning 80% devs are not going to bother.

That and Nvidia will push DX12 gameworks on developers saving devs time and money and further screwing AMD

 

[abundantcores]

Yeah, ^^^^ probably. great for us all that....

Funny you say it destroy's DX11 in performance but yet no one ever noticed that in reviews.

The answer to that is simple, an overclocked i7 powering a throttling reference 290 on game test that puts no strain what-so-ever on the CPU isn't going to make a blind bit of difference DX11 to Mantle.

This however, does.

Anyone who has even the faintest idea what Mantle is and does would not test it in the way 90% of reviewers did, the conclusion they came to was utterly inevitable with their testing methodology.

 

[cadaveca]

hurr hurr.

Yeah, ^^^^ probably. great for us all that....



The answer to that is simple, an overclocked i7 powering a throttling reference 290 on game test that puts no strain what-so-ever on the CPU isn't going to make a blind bit of difference DX11 to Mantle.

This however, does.

Anyone who has even the faintest idea what Mantle is and does would not test it in the way 90% of reviewers did, the conclusion they came to was utterly inevitable with their testing methodology.

All of which has nothing to do with why TPU isn't going to have a nano review on launch day.

More straw man stuff. Nobody is going to fall for your misdirection.

Also, reviewer's won't kill AMD, their lies in PR and product availability will. I used to get AMD samples direct from AMD, they fired the staff that I dealt with, then never contacted me again, and getting in touch with the right people is damn near impossible.

 

[arbiter]

Yeah, ^^^^ probably. great for us all that....



The answer to that is simple, an overclocked i7 powering a throttling reference 290 on game test that puts no strain what-so-ever on the CPU isn't going to make a blind bit of difference DX11 to Mantle.

This however, does.

Anyone who has even the faintest idea what Mantle is and does would not test it in the way 90% of reviewers did, the conclusion they came to was utterly inevitable with their testing methodology.

Problem with your video, there is 0 credibility behind it. so DX11 seems to run slow on 8350 and 290. problem is hundreds of reviews debunk that mantle is that much faster. if DX11 is that slow then something wrong with machine its on, but then again you are talking about an AMD cpu, AMD gpu, AMD sponsored game, so maybe AMD didn't even bother to spend any time with DX11 drivers for it?

 

[abundantcores]

Mantle smashes Nvidias DX11 performance on the same rig on the same run ^^^^ nothing but the GPU is different. R9 290 to GTX 970.

hurr hurr.

All of which has nothing to do with why TPU isn't going to have a nano review on launch day.

It kinda does, which is really why i'm at this, for a start AMD are broke, they are also paranoid, they have been unfairly treated by many reviewers and they cannot afford any more of it, its pushing them out of existence, they just don't know who to trust, they are in a state of panic.

 

[cadaveca]

Problem with your video, there is 0 credibility behind it. so DX11 seems to run slow on 8350 and 290. problem is hundreds of reviews debunk that mantle is that much faster. if DX11 is that slow then something wrong with machine its on, but then again you are talking about an AMD cpu, AMD gpu, AMD sponsored game, so maybe AMD didn't even bother to spend any time with DX11 drivers for it?

He's trying to say that Mantle only works in CPU-limited situations, like, when using a slow dualcore, or perhaps on a laptop. 8350 perforamcne can't be fixed due to cache problems in the chip.

It kinda does, which is really why i'm at this, for a start AMD are broke, they are also paranoid, they have been unfairly treated by many reviewers and they cannot afford any more of it, its pushing them out of existence, they just don't know who to trust, they are in a state of panic.

AMD used to send me CPU samples...

Then they fired my contact, and getting a new one is nigh on impossible. See no AMD board reviews? Ever wonder why? It's because I won't buy chips to review them, and I shouldn't have to go to board makers to get one. AMD can afford the $25 to send me a CPU to have their boards covered here, but they won't. That's all it would cost them.. $25.

AMD pays a dude to sit on twitch and stream, and you claim they are broke? lol. They simply spend their marketing dollar the wrong way.

 

[abundantcores]

He's trying to say that Mantle only works in CPU-limited situations, like, when using a slow dualcore, or perhaps on a laptop. 8350 perforamcne can't be fixed due to cache problems in the chip.



AMD used to send me CPU samples...

Then they fired my contact, and getting a new one is nigh on impossible. See no AMD board reviews? Ever wonder why? It's because I won't buy chips to review them, and I shouldn't have to go to board makers to get one. AMD can afford the $25 to send me a CPU to have their boards covered here, but they won't. That's all it would cost them.. $25.

AMD pays a dude to sit on twitch and stream, and you claim they are broke? lol. They simply spend their marketing dollar the wrong way.

Claim? they are broke, unless you have been under a rock for the last two years you should know that, they are loosing hundreds of millions a year and the coffers are now dry, they have had it.

Anyway. i need to get to bed.

 

[cadaveca]

Claim? they are broke, unless you have been under a rock for the last two years you should know that, they are loosing hundreds of millions a year and the coffers are now dry, they have had it.

That doesn't matter. They hold intellectual property that will keep them afloat. They've actually been doing good the past few years in my books, but a certain CEO decided to not focus on mobile products (for which he got fired), and that has left them in the state they are in now.

Not reviewers. It's their CEOs, and their marketing.

Nice try though. Still doesn't explain why they decided to not send me chips, and thereby minimizing their exposure...

AMD CPU reivews here on TPU, done by me:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FM2_APU_Preview/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FM2_APU_Review/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FX-8350_Piledriver_Review/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/A10-6800K/

If I wanted to take your way of saying things... oh look at the date since I've done a review... oh, look, that time period matches when you say they have been having issues... maybe they should have kept ME happy? Maybe their lack of sending me samples fucked them over, and now they are paying the price?

NOw here again we have an issue of not sending samples... whose fault is that?

A..M...fukin..D.

 

[Batou1986]

That doesn't matter. They hold intellectual property that will keep them afloat. They've actually been doing good the past few years in my books, but a certain CEO decided to not focus on mobile products (for which he got fired), and that has left them in the state they are in now.

Not reviewers. It's their CEOs, and their marketing.

Nice try though. Still doesn't explain why they decided to not send me chips, and thereby minimizing their exposure...

AMD CPU reivews here on TPU, done by me:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FM2_APU_Preview/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FM2_APU_Review/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FX-8350_Piledriver_Review/

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/A10-6800K/

If I wanted to take your way of saying things... oh look at the date since I've done a review... oh, look, that time period matches when you say they have been having issues... maybe they should have kept ME happy? Maybe their lack of sending me samples fucked them over, and now they are paying the price?

NOw here again we have an issue of not sending samples... whose fault is that?

A..M...fukin..D.

They stopped sending you samples because there was no change in performance except increased power consumption.

 

[cadaveca]

They stopped sending you samples because there was no change in performance except increased power consumption.

LuLz. really though, it was because they fired my contact, and none of the new staff would give me the time of day.


BE that as it may, abundantcores has been trying to say that AMD isn't sending samples out because reviewers fucked them over, so much so that they are now bleeding millions. Reviewers made them fail.

I think not.

 

[HumanSmoke]

Nice try though. Still doesn't explain why they decided to not send me chips, and thereby minimizing their exposure...

They send you a chip and they get a review.
They don't send you a chip and they hope you go out and buy one - and they get a review. They're hoping for the sale and the review....probably the same strategy they're hoping for with Nah,No!

BE that as it may, abundantcores has been trying to say that AMD isn't sending samples out because reviewers fucked them over, so much so that they are now bleeding millions. Reviewers made them fail.

It couldn't have anything to do with AMD having to service a $2bn debt that AMD's own BoD, including Hector Ruiz, managed to saddle the company with? The same debt servicing that's crushing the life out of their R&D budget?
It's a pity AMD's board seem less interested in the company than the people who rally behind it - still, there isn't much incentive to succeed I suppose, Lisa will pick up her $11.5 million compensation either way - and with a raft of built-in excuses and apologists, they always have mitigating circumstances : Nvidia, Intel, reviewers, Microsoft, GlobalFoundries, TSMC, game developers, the buying public...basically anyone except the people who saddled them with a debt burden that is grinding the company down to dust.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

We've moved on from one form of stupidity, to a conversation I think is worth having.

May I pose the question as such. Is AMD trying to market their brand in an entirely new way, or better yet are they competently marketing the brand?



I'd like to offer the following. I occasionally (upon release of new product lines) get e-mails from Nvidia about their latest and greatest cards. I never seemed to get those e-mails from AMD, until the 3xx series cards had a date. In the last three months I've been inundated with requests to follow AMD on Twitch, where they'd be giving away a brand new card after you were forced to watch somebody stream with it.

AMD has limited the amount of people who were offered Fury and Nano samples. You can argue this as AMD being paranoid, but it seems to be a stupid point. Nvidia have said that they won't release an HBM1 powered card, because of a severe limitation on the available stock and the memory limits. This is the company that proudly released a nearly 1600 USD card, that could be outperformed by an SLI setup with cards that were 1/2 the price and less. If you're willing to place that kind of albatross around your neck, yet still pass on HBM1, what does that say about the maturity and availability of HBM1?

Is AMD pricing themselves out of the game? It seems that way, but only because of incompetence of message. Nvidia can put the 970 (340ish USD), 980 (520ish USD), and Titan Z (1600ish USD) into a generation and "win." AMD on the other hand offers the 380 (200ish USD), 390 (320ish USD), and the Fury (650ish USD). Rather than focus on the high resolution benefits of the current product stack, or perhaps working with a B or C level studio to get a competent DX12 coded game onto the market to demonstrate their technological prowess, AMD are demonstrating the fact that they offer an excellent price to performance ratio (even if the performance per watt is not great). While that does get you something, the reality is that it doesn't translate to sales if you aren't marketing yourself as a value brand. AMD is still trying to be the king of performance, when they could do so much better this generation by selling themselves as the king of value, which will be reaped in the next several years as DX12 actually gains traction.

Is AMD actually focused on the high-end market? I have to ask the question, because it seems like everybody fails to do so. Nvidia has released a high end card with each of the last few generations, which does nothing for most people. Realistically, gaming on a console isn't as great, but when I could have two consoles for less than your single GPU, the cost to performance is pretty screwy. Likewise, the Nano demonstrates a rather unique focus on GPU size, not on massively increased performance. If, as was posed by the OP, Nano was stretched to Fury size and the pricing was reduced what would be on offer? A card that performs very well of the price per watt metric, demonstrates a new memory technology, and might well compete with the 980ti favorably on overclocking performance. Instead, what we receive is a lackluster Fury and a massively priced Nano. It really seems like AMD targeted two traditional market segments, fired everything, and forgot that there might be someone in-between.


In short, I think AMD marketing needs to be fundamentally reworked. There's such a fundamental disconnect between what they are selling, and how they are selling it, that I can't understand how their PR doesn't go home each evening and drink themselves to sleep. Social media pressure is great for low cost items. Traditional reviews are great for higher cost items (this is why Consumer Report and Car & Driver still exist). There's a fundamental stupidity demonstrated in trying to sell one with another though. You won't see Consumer Report passing judgement on deodorant, yet Old Spice has a better marketing engine through viral videos than the objective quality of their product. AMD is trying to be both a modern PR machine, and sell an expensive product. That kind of disconnect is hurting their bottom line more than objective silence on products ever could. Either support your expensive product with traditional reviews, or sell your cheap product with social media campaigns. What you are doing now is just painful to watch.