DOOM with Vulkan Renderer Significantly Faster on AMD GPUs

[R-T-B]

And with that statement you just poked a hole in your own argument. "The API just facilitates access to the hardware". Yeah hardware Nvidia just straight up doesn't have.

I know here you come to say "Oh but AMD doesn't have tess..." - let me cut you off right there. AMD can run tessellation just fine (In fact better than most Nvidia cards at this point) because they don't have to emulate hardware.

I will make another analogy - what you are saying is the equivalent of someone going "This API is AMD biased because it allows the game to use 3GB of VRAM instead of just 2GB. A lot of people said this when BF4 came out about their 680's. Again, having larger textures isn't biased - it just allows the use of more hardware. If Nvidia users wanted Ultra textures they should have bought a card with more VRAM, but dont worry because you can simply turn the setting down. Nvidia cards gave RAM, just not as much. You can't "Turn down Async", you are better just turning it off because Nvidia doesn't have the hardware in any way.

None of this has anything to do with the point I was making, which is that the API doesn't care what the hardware has. It just facilitates access to it.

Please support your tesselation claim. Last I checked, AMD is far inferior in it due to a serial tesselator. I could be wrong though.

Nvidia cards gave RAM, just not as much. You can't "Turn down Async", you are better just turning it off because Nvidia doesn't have the hardware in any way.

You seem to mistake me for a fanboy. I am not. NVIDIA lacks async hardware. There, I said it. This has nothing to do with optimizing for a platform, which is the basis of DX12. You again, do not "make" a platform for DX12. You make your game for the platform. That's what "low level" means.

 

[Captain_Tom]

Also keep in mind that Nvidia has recently (i.e. this year) released a driver for GeForce 8 series. And that's 10 years old.

You do know that AMD still supports all the way back to HD 2000 series cards... Right? Those launched 10 years ago.

Maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about before you talk?



Also are you enjoying your 8800 GTX? Not sure how considering it literally cannot run DX11 or newer....

 

[R-T-B]

You do know that AMD still supports all the way back to HD 2000 series cards... Right? Those launched 10 years ago.

Maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about before you talk?

No.

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/Driver-Support-for-AMD-Radeon™-HD-4000,-HD-3000,-HD-2000-and-older-Series.aspx

 

[bug]

You do know that AMD still supports all the way back to HD 2000 series cards... Right? Those launched 10 years ago.

Maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about before you talk?



Also are you enjoying your 8800 GTX? Not sure how considering it literally cannot run DX11 or newer....

Sure they do. The latest driver for Windows 7 is Catalyst 13.9. For Windows 8 and later the website says the driver is only available through Windows Update, so I can't verify the version (but it's probably the same 13.9). And if you go look for an Ubuntu driver, you get a page informing you that: "Since the AMD Radeon™ HD 4000 and older products were move to a legacy support model in 2013, they were not included in the list of supported products for these specific distributions." (For those who don't know, AMD dropped everything pre GCN before switching to their new driver.)
Other than that, yeah, it's the same level of support Nvidia provides.

 

[Captain_Tom]

Sure they do. The latest driver for Windows 7 is Catalyst 13.9. For Windows 8 and later the website says the driver is only available through Windows Update, so I can't verify the version (but it's probably the same 13.9). And if you go look for an Ubuntu driver, you get a page informing you that: "Since the AMD Radeon™ HD 4000 and older products were move to a legacy support model in 2013, they were not included in the list of supported products for these specific distributions." (For those who don't know, AMD dropped everything pre GCN before switching to their new driver.)
Other than that, yeah, it's the same level of support Nvidia provides.

Exactly. After 7 years, there is no need for specific game-by-game optimization. The driver is as efficient as it will ever get.

But R-T-B said "No" and posted the link I already checked myself. So I guess I am just wrong because he can't read...

 

[Aquinus]

Exactly. After 7 years, there is no need for specific game-by-game optimization. The driver is as efficient as it will ever get.

But R-T-B said "No" and posted the link I already checked myself. So I guess I am just wrong because he can't read...

No it's not. It's old and they stopped supporting it. Supporting it means that they're actively maintaining drivers, it doesn't mean they're perfect. Maybe you should take your own advice...

Maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about before you talk?

 

[looncraz]

No it's not. It's old and they stopped supporting it. Supporting it means that they're actively maintaining drivers, it doesn't mean they're perfect. Maybe you should take your own advice...

AMD is actually still supporting back to the HD2000 series through Microsoft's hardware compatibility programs. You can use those cards in Windows 10, but you won't be able to use all the latest bells and whistles with any support from AMD... however, some people have managed to install CCC nonetheless.

http://www.wagnardmobile.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64

The R600 architecture is a decade old - and works with AMD drivers on Windows 10. AMD simply doesn't offer a download on their web-site.

 

[Aquinus]

AMD is actually still supporting back to the HD2000 series through Microsoft's hardware compatibility programs. You can use those cards in Windows 10, but you won't be able to use all the latest bells and whistles with any support from AMD... however, some people have managed to install CCC nonetheless.

http://www.wagnardmobile.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64

The R600 architecture is a decade old - and works with AMD drivers on Windows 10. AMD simply doesn't offer a download on their web-site.

Windows 10 doesn't require WDDM 2.0 drivers. It can run off of older Windows 7 drivers. I'm willing to bet that the 13.1 drivers probably are the ones being downloaded by Windows Update with the older cards. That's not what's being disputed though. Being able to install or use a driver versus ones that's actively being supported are two very different things.

 

[cdawall]

I question why a company should be wasting money on such a minute portion of the population. So the highest usage of those cards is the HD5450, with a huge .61% of the machines on steam.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

 

[looncraz]

Windows 10 doesn't require WDDM 2.0 drivers. It can run off of older Windows 7 drivers. I'm willing to bet that the 13.1 drivers probably are the ones being downloaded by Windows Update with the older cards. That's not what's being disputed though. Being able to install or use a driver versus ones that's actively being supported are two very different things.

There's not much difference, really. AMD doesn't release drivers to the public except through Windows Update - but they ARE updated drivers. They receive important fixes, but no new features. Besides nVidia including the Control Panel and AMD not including CCC in their legacy drivers, there is really no difference.

For nVidia, having the Control Panel is vital as their defaults are horrendous (such as defaulting to limited color ranges), but AMD has not had that problem - their defaults tend to be to fully enable a capability. And if you want CCC, you can still install it and use it without issues.

 

[BiggieShady]

i also was interested in power consumption and found something interesting... vulkan increase performance/watt in same tdp.. :

Finally, Vulkan puts RX 480 where it should be ... I'm amazed how Maxwell holds its own on 28 nm tech next to 14 nm FinFet efficient Polaris, also how up to date nvidia is with opengl support

 

[Melvis]

What card are you referring to?

In my experience AMD cards age WAY WAY better than Nvidia. The only exception imo is the power hungry Fermi cards, but that even that is only if you ignore the paltry amounts of VRAM on the high-end offerings (Which is a big deal).

Im talking about as far back as the 8800GT series of cards and onwards where I find driver support for even these old cards (maybe not so much anymore) will work in modern OS's and games where AMD cards stopped after the HD 4000 Series and made my (at the time) 4870X2 alot harder to use even in Windows 7 and games considering the card still had alot to offer at the time.

I got 6 years of driver support for my 6870s, I wouldn't call that bad. On the other hand you have products like the E-350 which they dropped support for pretty quickly. I suspect that support for most GCN GPUs will last as long as my 6870s did.

I dont consider the HD 6XXX series old and I was more so referring to the HD3000 and 4000 series of cards which at the time were great cards and still had lots to offer but AMD decided to stop support for them where as Nvidia still support there cards from that era, this is why I think you get longer life out of an Nvidia card compared to a AMD card.

 

[Captain_Tom]

Im talking about as far back as the 8800GT series of cards and onwards where I find driver support for even these old cards (maybe not so much anymore) will work in modern OS's and games where AMD cards stopped after the HD 4000 Series and made my (at the time) 4870X2 alot harder to use even in Windows 7 and games considering the card still had alot to offer at the time.



I dont consider the HD 6XXX series old and I was more so referring to the HD3000 and 4000 series of cards which at the time were great cards and still had lots to offer but AMD decided to stop support for them where as Nvidia still support there cards from that era, this is why I think you get longer life out of an Nvidia card compared to a AMD card.

Where are you people getting your information from? They are still supported just fine lol. Check their page, you can download drivers for your 2006 HD 2000 card!

 

[Captain_Tom]

Windows 10 doesn't require WDDM 2.0 drivers. It can run off of older Windows 7 drivers. I'm willing to bet that the 13.1 drivers probably are the ones being downloaded by Windows Update with the older cards. That's not what's being disputed though. Being able to install or use a driver versus ones that's actively being supported are two very different things.

Let me get this straight. You think Nvidia is working right now on optimizing 8800 GTX cards for.... What? Borderlands: TPS?! No game in 2016 even uses below DX11. And everything else runs fine with legacy drivers.

 

[Melvis]

Let me get this straight. You think Nvidia is working right now on optimizing 8800 GTX cards for.... What? Borderlands: TPS?! No game in 2016 even uses below DX11. And everything else runs fine with legacy drivers.

And you think AMD do? same boat but at least Nvidia still has (or at least did) have where if you ran an older card that is still supported in new OS's and games. Nvidia Driver for 8 series Release Date: 2016.3.16

 

[cdawall]

And you think AMD do? same boat but at least Nvidia still has (or at least did) have where if you ran an older card that is still supported in new OS's and games. Nvidia Driver for 8 series Release Date: 2016.3.16

Nvidia also rebranded the 8 series for many many more years.

Also 341.95 was the last driver for that batch of cards they are no longer supported.

 

[Captain_Tom]

And you think AMD do? same boat but at least Nvidia still has (or at least did) have where if you ran an older card that is still supported in new OS's and games. Nvidia Driver for 8 series Release Date: 2016.3.16

I think neither of them do. I believe they both finished perfecting the drivers of 2006's cards 6 years ago! They can say their driver is "newer" all they want. It doesn't do a damn thing.


And then I have to play devils advocate here: What new game does an HD 2000 series card need optimization for from this or last year? It can't even run games above DX9, so there is literally no point in releasing new drivers when no big DX9 game has come out for 2 years!!! This is just PR for Nvidia so they can make it look like their cards age well when in reality a 7870 = 680 right now!

 

[R-T-B]

There's not much difference, really. AMD doesn't release drivers to the public except through Windows Update - but they ARE updated drivers. They receive important fixes, but no new features. Besides nVidia including the Control Panel and AMD not including CCC in their legacy drivers, there is really no difference.

I'll bet a real $5.00 paypal bucks they are just repacks of the 13.1 drivers. First come first serve with proof. Note it may take me up to 24 hours to make payment as I don't live here.

I think neither of them do. I believe they both finished perfecting the drivers of 2006's cards 6 years ago!

Yes, that's basically what I was saying before someone (I wonder who?) threw out that HD2000 was still being actively supported.

 

[bug]

Where are you people getting your information from? They are still supported just fine lol. Check their page, you can download drivers for your 2006 HD 2000 card!

Not if you're on Win8, 8.1 or 10 you can't.

Let me get this straight. You think Nvidia is working right now on optimizing 8800 GTX cards for.... What? Borderlands: TPS?! No game in 2016 even uses below DX11. And everything else runs fine with legacy drivers.

They're probably not optimizing anything at this point, but they still fix the occasional issue. A game that runs just fine on Win7 may not run as such on Win10.

 

[I No]

Who here thinks that from a business's point of view it's profitable to actively support EOL tech? Or people still think AMD is playing "good and fair" to their 6 year old customers? Or nVidia for that matter. As a customer you are only good when you actually buy the card not 6 years after you bought it. As far as expecting support for EOL tech you're barking up the wrong tree. Who in their right minds would put money into developing new software for the hardware that was in use 5, 6, 20 years ago. The only reason why GCN is getting it's support it's that it's in use for a very long time now. I'm just wondering what's going to happen to it if Vega turns out to be different than GCN. Although i wouldn't put my money on it being changed due to AMD's current budget for RnD being less than the department store across the road compared to the competition.

 

[bug]

Who here thinks that from a business's point of view it's profitable to actively support EOL tech? Or people still think AMD is playing "good and fair" to their 6 year old customers? Or nVidia for that matter. As a customer you are only good when you actually buy the card not 6 years after you bought it. As far as expecting support for EOL tech you're barking up the wrong tree. Who in their right minds would put money into developing new software for the hardware that was in use 5, 6, 20 years ago. The only reason why GCN is getting it's support it's that it's in use for a very long time now. I'm just wondering what's going to happen to it if Vega turns out to be different than GCN. Although i wouldn't put my money on it being changed due to AMD's current budget for RnD being less than the department store across the road compared to the competition.

Well, AMD users are used to that line of thinking. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But the initial assertion was that AMD hardware ages better. Now, as a Nvidia user I'm used to knowing that I can use a 10 years old video card whether I'm on Windows or Linux (or Solaris, if I'm feeling particularly kinky). And this makes sense from a business PoV because support is the reason I stick to Nvidia in the first place. Plus, Nvidia uses a unified driver and keeping it up to date is more cost effective than it is for AMD. Of course, Nvidia doesn't support products forever, at some point architectures are relegated to a legacy branch, but even that continues to receive updates for a while, before being officially retired. For example, I can find a linux driver for GeForce 6 series (12 years old) updated in Nov 2015. And that gives me confidence when buying.

 

[Captain_Tom]

I'll bet a real $5.00 paypal bucks they are just repacks of the 13.1 drivers. First come first serve with proof. Note it may take me up to 24 hours to make payment as I don't live here.



Yes, that's basically what I was saying before someone (I wonder who?) threw out that HD2000 was still being actively supported.

Hahaha come on now. Just because everyone is piling on you doesn't mean you can play the "That's what I was trying to say" card. You made it sound like AMD doesn't have any drivers at all and Nvidia is still making sure 8800 GTX's can srun BF1. The fact is both companies stop doing active optimization after about 6 years, and its because they don't need to.

 

[Captain_Tom]

They're probably not optimizing anything at this point, but they still fix the occasional issue. A game that runs just fine on Win7 may not run as such on Win10.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that HD 2000 cards have a Windows 10 driver download.


And why are you talking about Windows 7? You have to go all the way back to Windows XP to check this buddy, and I would like someone to check it because all I am seeing is conjecture. No one here actually had a problem.

 

[Aquinus]

Hahaha come on now. Just because everyone is piling on you doesn't mean you can play the "That's what I was trying to say" card. You made it sound like AMD doesn't have any drivers at all and Nvidia is still making sure 8800 GTX's can srun BF1. The fact is both companies stop doing active optimization after about 6 years, and its because they don't need to.

Support indicates that they're still going to make improvements for the driver for particular hardware. We're not saying they don't have drivers available, what we're saying is that they're out of support and haven't been updated for almost 3 years.

You do realize that HD 2000 cards have a Windows 10 driver download.

Yeah, it's the same driver from Windows 7. WDDM 1.1 drivers can run on Windows 10, just as WDDM 1.2 drivers can as well. I bet you can go on AMD's website, download the old driver for Windows 7, then use hardware manager to install the display driver directly. None of this means that the hardware is still being supported though, it just means that old drivers for Windows 7 still work on Windows 10.

 

[Captain_Tom]

Well, AMD users are used to that line of thinking. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But the initial assertion was that AMD hardware ages better. Now, as a Nvidia user I'm used to knowing that I can use a 10 years old video card whether I'm on Windows or Linux (or Solaris, if I'm feeling particularly kinky). And this makes sense from a business PoV because support is the reason I stick to Nvidia in the first place. Plus, Nvidia uses a unified driver and keeping it up to date is more cost effective than it is for AMD. Of course, Nvidia doesn't support products forever, at some point architectures are relegated to a legacy branch, but even that continues to receive updates for a while, before being officially retired. For example, I can find a linux driver for GeForce 6 series (12 years old) updated in Nov 2015. And that gives me confidence when buying.

The problem is you're trying to negate how terribly Nvidia's cards age by saying "They technically last longer". In reality no one is out there complaining that their old 8800 or 3870 can't run BF4. ZERO. Not a single person.

However there are a lot of people who paid $700 for a 780 Ti that is beat by my overclocked 7950 in the latest games. I paid $100 for this card to do some extra Darkcoin mining a couple years ago (My temporary card until I upgrade to Pascal/Polaris/Vega). Stop using this made up driver issue to deflect the truth that an Nvidia card only lasts about a year before AMD's last-gen cards start beating it.