Logitech K810 alternative. Does it exist?

[mveras1972]

I absolutely love EVERYTHING about the Logitech K810. The size, the comfort, the battery life, the backlight, it's wireless, etc.... except for one thing: it's Bluetooth! I absolutely hate Bluetooth as a connection method for keyboards. I understand the advantages, but it is also a bad choice for Windows computers. You have to wait for the PC to boot up to use the keyboard, which means you can't use the keyboard when the PC doesn't boot, go to the BIOS, boot to USB, etc. so I have to have an alternate keyboard handy when I need to do those things.
Is there another keyboard similar to the K810 that uses some other connection that is NOT Bluetooth? Any other wireless method like Unifying or some other proprietary method would be much better since it doesn't have to rely on Windows drivers to work.

 

[Bill_Bright]

which means you can't use the keyboard when the PC doesn't boot, go to the BIOS, boot to USB, etc.

Not true! It sounds like you don't have your USB ports configured properly. It sounds like you have your USB Hubs in Device Manager set to NOT allow them to wake the computer, or you have your power save features for your USB ports set to disable power when the computer is off.

I have Microsoft BT keyboards and mice on three computers here that use a BT dongle connected to USB port. I have no problems accessing the BIOS, booting into Safe Mode, or any other action I need to do with my mouse or keyboard.

 

[mveras1972]

Ok, I have a bit more knowledge on the subject, so I know this has nothing to do with USB port configuration, disabling power, etc. Bluetooth by definition does not work outside the OS because the drivers are not loaded so normally you can't have Bluetooth keyboards access the BIOS. You need more than just power to have a Bluetooth keyboard talk to a computer without the Bluetooth drivers loaded. The Bluetooth stack needs to be loaded in the OS or else a Bluetooth keyboard does not work. You can look this up.

In your case, I am willing to bet there is something proprietary about your configuration and I am curious to know exactly what it is. Please tell me the exact model of Microsoft keyboard and BT dongle that you have. Please be specific so I can look this up.

Thanks.

 

[newtekie1]

Bluetooth support is part of UEFI. So any modern computer with a UEFI based BIOS should natively support bluetooth and any bluetooth keyboard should work before the main OS boots to allow you to get into the BIOS and select boot options etc.

The only thing is you have to pair the keyboard with the Bluetooth receiver in the main OS. But once it is paired, it should work to control the UEFI BIOS and allow you to get into the UEFI BIOS.

However, offcial support for Bluetooth in UEFI was only added sometime last year. So some older hardware that hasn't had a UEFI BIOS update in a while might not natively support bluetooth. But more hardware should support it as time goes on.

Also, some USB Bluetooth dongles will register as a standard keyboard and work to control the BIOS even on old computers. Once they are paired in the main OS, the dongle will pair with the keyboard right when it receives power and report as a standard keyboard to the computer, so that it can be used to control the OS. I think you want to make sure you dongle supports standard HID functions, like this one does: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156257

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Just some info

(Devices with Bluetooth wireless technology generally do not work until the operating system is loaded. However, some Microsoft products start up with 2.4 GHz, and then switch to Bluetooth, so you can use your keyboard and mouse before the operating system is loaded.)

This could be if your keyboard comes with a bluetooth/2.4ghz dongle, possibly not the imbedded bluetooth on MB which then might have extra option in the bios to configure

 

[silentbogo]

If you don't mind cheap plastic and flimsy touchpad - then K400 or any other with Logitech Unifying interface.
It works as a regular USB HID device, and does support legacy mode, so it works out of the box with any OS on any PC with USB 2.0 (even old dinosaurs), and is fully functional in BIOS.
Sold mine few months ago. Used it extensively to test PC hardware and other stuff in my workshop, and never changed its AA batteries in over 12 months of use.

 

[mveras1972]

Thanks for all the great info guys! Much appreciated. Yes, there are Bluetooth dongles that have the HID Proxy feature and I am looking into that as an alternative since my computer doesn't have Bluetooth support in UEFI.

@newtekie1, how are you sure that the TrendNet TBW-106UB has HID Proxy support? I don't see that listed.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Bluetooth by definition does not work outside the OS because the drivers are not loaded so normally you can't have Bluetooth keyboards access the BIOS.

Not true. As I already noted, I have 3 computers here with BT keyboards and mice that work just fine outside the OS. And only two of those have UEFI BIOS.

In addition to the comments above, note the BT connection between the BT dongle and the BT keyboard and mouse that dongle came with is between the dongle and the motherboard and keyboard. It is not a BT connection between the keyboard/mouse and the computer/Windows. The dongle then communicates with the motherboard via USB but the computer sees a keyboard and mouse, not a BT device. For example, in Device Manager, there is no BT driver.

If you are using a universal BT dongle, then that may be the problem. I note the dongle that comes with most BT keyboards and mouse combinations (that I am aware of) are dedicated devices - that is, the "channels" for the keyboard and mouse are already configured in the firmware in the dongle for instant (and dedicated) pairing for that specific keyboard and mouse "set" the dongle came with. This serves several purposes. (1) It is pretty much all plug and play. And (2) it prevents interference from other BT devices. For example, I have the same Comfort 5050 Keyboard and Mouse "sets" on two computers in the same room and they do not interfere with each other.

The downside (though it is not to me) is I cannot pair any other BT device with this dongle.

 

[newtekie1]

@newtekie1, how are you sure that the TrendNet TBW-106UB has HID Proxy support? I don't see that listed.

It is listed in the specs on the Trendnet website: https://www.trendnet.com/products/USB-adapters/TBW-106UB#tabs-solution02

 

[mveras1972]

Not true. As I already noted, I have 3 computers here with BT keyboards and mice that work just fine outside the OS. And only two of those have UEFI BIOS.

In addition to the comments above, note the BT connection between the BT dongle and the BT keyboard and mouse that dongle came with is between the dongle and the motherboard and keyboard. It is not a BT connection between the keyboard/mouse and the computer/Windows. The dongle then communicates with the motherboard via USB but the computer sees a keyboard and mouse, not a BT device. For example, in Device Manager, there is no BT driver.

If you are using a universal BT dongle, then that may be the problem. I note the dongle that comes with most BT keyboards and mouse combinations (that I am aware of) are dedicated devices - that is, the "channels" for the keyboard and mouse are already configured in the firmware in the dongle for instant (and dedicated) pairing for that specific keyboard and mouse "set" the dongle came with. This serves several purposes. (1) It is pretty much all plug and play. And (2) it prevents interference from other BT devices. For example, I have the same Comfort 5050 Keyboard and Mouse "sets" on two computers in the same room and they do not interfere with each other.

The downside (though it is not to me) is I cannot pair any other BT device with this dongle.

Bill, when you insist that what I am saying is not true, it's like I am watching the ceiling in my own room is white and you insist it is black without even seeing it. So let's set the record straight. First, you stated that you have a Comfort 5050 keyboard. I encourage you to look up where the Comfort 5050 states it is a Bluetooth device. It does not say that. I think what you are confusing is that it has "Bluetrack" technology (I looked it up) but that is unrelated to the connection with the dongle, it has to do with how the mouse sensor tracks the surface to move the mouse cursor. I asked you to give me the model of your keyboard for a reason, and it is because I knew there was something proprietary about your setup. The Comfort 5050 uses a proprietary wireless 2.4Ghz dongle which is a proprietary wireless technology, so it only works with that keyboard/mouse.

If you have a Comfort 5050 keyboard, then you are NOT using a Bluetooth keyboard or dongle. If you look at the specs, the Comfort 5050 says it uses 2.4Ghz wireless technology which is proprietary. Just because something is wireless does not mean it is Bluetooth. Therefore, it makes sense when you say that you can't connect any other Bluetooth device to the dongle, because it is NOT a Bluetooth dongle. Your description of how your dongle and keyboards behave demonstrate that they are NOT Bluetooth.

I have another keyboard that uses a proprietary wireless USB dongle that is "fixed" to the keyboard, just like your Comfort 5050. That is NOT a Bluetooth dongle. If it was Bluetooth, then I should be able to pair it with other devices, but I cannot because it is NOT Bluetooth. Typically Bluetooth keyboards/mice do not come with a dongle, because you get to choose whichever Bluetooth dongle you want. However, keyboards/mice with proprietary wireless technologies are sold with the dongle included, because they do not work with any other dongle, and because the wireless dongle is "married" to the keyboard, you are able to use it to access the BIOS outside the OS because it does not depend on OS drivers. So once again, Bluetooth keyboard/mice do NOT work on computers unless the OS and Bluetooth drivers are loaded or you have some other setup that allows Bluetooth operation before the OS and drivers are loaded, such as a Bluetooth dongle with HID Proxy support (very rare) or Bluetooth support in UEFI. If I was wrong about this, I would stand corrected, but I can't. I hope this clarifies everything.

 

[FR@NK]

Yea whats the point of using bluetooth if you have to use a dongle? Might aswell just use proprietary wireless.

it's like I am watching the ceiling in my own room is white and you insist it is black without even seeing it

Yep thats Bill Anyways, welcome to techpowerup!

 

[mveras1972]

It is listed in the specs on the Trendnet website: https://www.trendnet.com/products/USB-adapters/TBW-106UB#tabs-solution02

I'm sorry, but I don't see HID Proxy listed in that page. However, I see it says Human Interface Device. Are you referring to this? That is not the same thing.

Just about any Bluetooth dongle on the market has the HID profile, but almost none of them have the HID Proxy function. HID Proxy is not a profile but a way to get around the fact that Bluetooth keyboards do not connect to the computer prior to the OS loading. HID Proxy is an additional intelligence built into some (very few) dongles and it is not part of the Bluetooth specification. It presents the keyboard/mouse to the computer directly to the BIOS as an HID device rather than a Bluetooth dongle and this is how it allows Bluetooth HID devices to interact with the computer prior to loading the OS. That is how Apple does it. On the PC it is much more difficult to get this done. When the OS loads, then the Bluetooth drivers kick in, and the dongle is switched from Proxy HID to HCI mode which is your regular Bluetooth functionality. I know of a couple of dongles that have HID Proxy but they are very hard to find since they don't make them anymore and are expensive.

 

[silentbogo]

Just about any Bluetooth dongle on the market has the HID profile, but almost none of them have the HID Proxy function. HID Proxy is not a profile but a way to get around the fact that Bluetooth keyboards do not connect to the computer prior to the OS loading.

I don't think you can find an aftermarket bluetooth adapter with HID proxy enabled out of the box (unless you are a Mac user).
I know my CSR Harmony adapter can be modified to support HID proxy on boot, but requires firmware update (which is nowhere to be found), and requires tweaking from within Windows to set it back to HCI mode.
Otherwise, you can butcher an old Apple bluetooth adapter to work over USB and install OSX for it to work ))

 

[Jetster]

I'm right there with you on Bluetooth. Don't like it

 

[Bill_Bright]

@mveras1972 - my point is you keep insisting you can't use a BT keyboard and mouse to, for example, go into the BIOS. As a blanket statement, that' just not true. I agree you can't use just any BT dongle - I already said that. So I am not and never did say, as a blanket statement, any BT keyboard and mouse will work.

Now you can keep looking at your white ceiling and I will believe you that it is truly white - even without me seeing it. Whether you believe BT keyboards and mice work outside the OS or not is up to you. But don't tell us or my next door neighbor. Because his BT mouse and keyboard work great in the BIOS of his ASUS Z170-A.

Yea whats the point of using bluetooth if you have to use a dongle? Might aswell just use proprietary wireless.

So how does proprietary wireless work? With a dongle or similar transceiver device connected to or installed in the computer.

 

[mveras1972]

Thanks @silentbogo. I can see you have a good understanding of what a Bluetooth dongle is and what it can do and the limitations. There are a couple of Bluetooth dongles I see some folks claiming will work in HID Proxy mode. I ran into this thread which I found quite interesting: http://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/bluetooth-usb-adapter-with-hid-proxy-mode.109961/

I also found this article. I am hoping others will find it informative and gain a bit more understanding of the limitations of Bluetooth and why by definition a BT keyboard isn't designed to be able to access the BIOS on a PC: http://www.0xf8.org/2014/02/the-crux-of-finding-a-hid-proxy-capable-usb-bluetooth-adapter/

I know this gap in the Bluetooth keyboards is slowly being closed with the addition of Bluetooth support on UEFI, but that solution is long overdue and slowly catching up with the times. If you have to go through this extraordinary length to get your BT keyboard to access the BIOS, then by definition this is a technology that was never designed to do that, so we have to deal with becoming the exception and get it working. This is why proprietary wireless keyboard solutions exist, otherwise, they would not be necessary. The problem is, no one offers a keyboard with proprietary wireless (non-Bluetooth) that is as well designed as the Logitech K810. If my next computer happens to have built-in BT support in UEFI, then my problem will be solved. But until then, I have to find an alternative, unless Logitech decides to be a bit smarter and make a version of the K810 that uses Unifying technology or other proprietary wireless.

 

[FR@NK]

So how does proprietary wireless work? With a dongle or similar transceiver device connected to or installed in the computer.

Correct Bill!

The main benefit of using a bluetooth keyboard is that it will pair up with any bluetooth device without having to connect any hardware(a dongle).

If you have to go through this extraordinary length to get your BT keyboard to access the BIOS, then by definition this is a technology that was never designed to do that

I think you are accessing your bios too much if this small inconvenience is making you replace your keyboard. Did you just build a new system or something?

 

[mveras1972]

I think you are accessing your bios too much if this small inconvenience is making you replace your keyboard. Did you just build a new system or something?

LOL! What can I tell you.... I am a computer technician so I make changes to my system every now and then. The reason for this thread is that I've been putting up with this small inconvenience for a couple of years now, and so it just builds up. I've been patiently waiting to see if Logitech or some Chinese vendor makes a nice comparable keyboard, but so far, nothing.

Now, I just had one of my hard drives go bad and needs to be replaced. Sometimes I boot to WinPE utilities using USB sticks to backup and create images. Sometimes I need to access Linux installed on my USB external drive, among other things. So this is not just about the BIOS. Like I said, I've been patiently waiting for the past two years for an alternative and I thought I would ask.

 

[Kos87]

It is 2018 and it sadly looks like Logitech K810 is still the best keyboard out there. I know this thread is old.

I was looking for a good keyboard - standard layout, good keys, reasonable size, without numeric keypad.
I was not looking for bluetooth, though I wanted a wireless keyboard.
I read that the best keyboard with all this features is K810, so I bought it.

Only after the first reboot with this keyboard I realized that I cannot use it outside of the OS.

I was searching the internet for the answers and found some, but it appears there is still no solution for this problem.
There is no Bluetooth dongle that supports HID proxy for K810 (k810 uses Bluetooth 3.0).
And Bluetooth support in UEFI depends on a particular manufacturer of the motherboard.

Maybe I am missing something and there is a better keyboard, or there is an option of how one can use Bluetooth keyboard in BIOS/UEFI/GRUB (outside of the OS)?

 

[Jetster]

What? Use a K400

 

[Bill_Bright]

It is 2018 and it sadly looks like Logitech K810 is still the best keyboard out there.

LOL Still? Many would argue it never was.

Using a wireless keyboard (or mouse) in the BIOS (or Safe Mode, or when booting to an external drive) should not be a priority. Just keep a cheap wired keyboard and mouse in your closet for troubleshooting.

 

[Kos87]

Using a wireless keyboard (or mouse) in the BIOS (or Safe Mode, or when booting to an external drive) should not be a priority. Just keep a cheap wired keyboard and mouse in your closet for troubleshooting.

Yeah, but I am using Arch Linux, and sometimes I need this ability to use the keyboard outside of the OS. Once a month on average. And it is super inconvenient to keep another keyboard near my computer.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yeah, but I am using Arch Linux, and sometimes I need this ability to use the keyboard outside of the OS. Once a month on average. And it is super inconvenient to keep another keyboard near my computer.

I understand that and that is specifically why I said "BIOS" or "when booting to an external drive".

But you are looking at this backwards. The problem is not your keyboard or mouse. If you want to use a wireless mouse and keyboard and ensure you have connectively at all times, what you need is a motherboard with a chipset that recognizes and supports the necessary USB dongle natively. If the BIOS does not know how to communicate natively with BT or RF dongles, it does not matter what OS you are trying to boot too.

I have a little, almost hidden shelf under my desk. I keep a wired keyboard and mouse under there connected to my computer. In this way, I know I can still navigate around the BIOS, in Safe Mode, or when I boot to an external drive without having to worry about ensuring the drivers for my wireless dongle are loaded.

I also use rechargeable NiMH batteries in my keyboard and mouse. Like Li-Ion batteries, they have a steady and flat discharge curve like this:

That is, they run and run and run, then suddenly, the voltage drops to near zero. Having a wired keyboard already connected means if my keyboard and mouse suddenly stop communicating with my computer, I can quickly grab the wired keyboard so I can finish what I was doing and then "gracefully" shut down my computer to swap in fresh batteries. Without the wired devices, I might have to force a crash kill of the computer by pressing the power button - not cool.

And of course, a wired keyboard and mouse ensure no connectivity issues on new builds - before any OS has been installed yet.

 

[Kos87]

Thanks! It is actually a good point about motherboard that natively supports Bluetooth dongles.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Thanks! It is actually a good point about motherboard that natively supports Bluetooth dongles.

Not necessarily BT dongles, but USB dongles since many wireless keyboards use different RF technologies besides BT. Check also that you are using USB 2.0 ports and not USB 3.0. That can sometimes be a problem "outside the OS".