"Unlimited Detail" Tech still being developed

[qubit]

There was a lively thread about this about 5/6 years ago on TPU where the impossible claim of "unlimited detail" in rendering engines was being made by Euclideon which had the skeptics like me and a few others, debunking it. Loudly. They are claiming an infinite number of points can be rendered using their technology which is patently false, as nothing infinite can exist in this universe. Well, they're still making that claim...

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/unlimited-detail-technology.117258

Well, surprisingly Euclideon are still here and with a new video to boot, dated September 2016. Their claims still look iffy to be honest, but at least they have more to show. Here's the video:

They've got more videos on their YouTube channel, too.

For those back then who thought that they don't ask for investors (and therefore must surely be legit) they actually do - see the description under the above video. Plus, the game engine is almost ready for release. I seem to remember things were quite close to release 5 years ago too with development having started way back in 2003. That's 13 years ago, an absolute age in the computer industry. Smell a rat yet?

Here are some demos on their website so have a play and see what you think:

http://udserver.euclideon.com/demo

And a somewhat skeptical video of what they're apparently actually doing in their demo (cheating by turning point clouds into meshes basically) from someone who seems to know what he's talking about:

Two HardOCP interviews with Euclideon's founder

First one (video interview by John Gatt) was rather fawning and didn't challenge anything Euclideon's founder Bruce Dell said. Really pertinent questions were not asked for some strange reason.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/08/10/euclideon_unlimited_detail_bruce_dell_interview

In a second interview (written Q&A style) by HardOCP's founder Kyle Bennett, it now turns out that the original interviewer, John Gatt, now works for Euclideon. Kinda explains that lack of hard-hitting journalism in the first interview, doesn't it?

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/09/12/bruce_dell_euclideon_holoverse_interview

Check all this out and see what you think, plus vote in the poll. I'm still not convinced that this is genuine, but at least there's more to go on and the company is still there, so that's something.

And finally, Notch's take on it, from 2011. Notch is the developer of the wildly successful Minecraft, so he probably knows what he's talking about.

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam

 

[remixedcat]

Vaporware and this is not a e s t e t i c......


More scam artist-a and this guy is as much of a fraud as the DNC.


This "company" hides comments on their YT vids, they refuse to contact game dev houses back, and they have been "working on this since 2006" and NOT A SINGLE GAME OR APP is released on this "tech" which is just fancy voxel shite.

This guy needs mental help.

 

[Vayra86]

When it looks too good to be true...

it always is

I don't even click this junk anymore, you just know it's a waste of time

 

[qubit]

"working on this since 2006"

It's actually 2003 making it even worse lol.

What gets me is how this scam can be perpetuated over such a long time and not be found out.

 

[remixedcat]

holy shite!

 

[FordGT90Concept]

If the technology is as good as they claim it is, they need to get it into developer's hands and actually use it. Until then, they might as well call themselves Theranos.

And finally, Notch's take on it, from 2011. Notch is the developer of the wildly successful Minecraft, so he probably knows what he's talking about.

No, not really. Minecraft was horribly coded.

The Crytek guy mentioned in the video is probably the most credible to take a hard look at it. As he said, it's technically possible to do. I mean, 3D laser scanners pretty much do what it does. I think the primary obstacle is the raw amount of data that is required to define "atoms" over, for example, a texture. One can also argue that "unlimited detail" as demonstrated, doesn't actually look much better than textures because they can't do as much (anything?) with lighting and lighting is more important than level of detail. It kind of turns into a self-defeating technology from that standpoint.


Edit: At the end of the video, he says they're working on their own engine. In other words, it's smoke and mirrors until they release it.

 

[Vayra86]

It's actually 2003 making it even worse lol.

What gets me is how this scam can be perpetuated over such a long time and not be found out.

I honestly don't think anyone cares

 

[RejZoR]

I've watched interview with someone from this company on PC Perspective Youtube channel.

Main reason why things are moving so slowly is because all the tools in existence are designed for work with polygons (all 3D games currently in existence). Unlimited Detail uses no polygons. Meaning they have to design new content creation tools from scratch, because NONE of the existing ones can even do anything with their technology. It's why they only presented static imagery in the beginning and only now showed first animated graphics. Why? Because existing animation tools were simply of no use for their tech. Companies who make games today have NO tools that can work with their tech. When you listen to that interview, things all of a sudden make sense. And the team behind it is rather small. They don't have 500 programmers to work on this stuff.

 

[qubit]

No, not really. Minecraft was horribly coded.

Yes really. You can't make a pithy blanket one liner dismissal like that. This is especially true as whether it's well coded or not is actually irrelevant to this point since Notch certainly knows about these graphics programming techniques whether he chooses to optimise well or not. On top of that, it sounds like your opinion that Minecraft was badly coded. Hence with all this, your dismissal doesn't hold water.

Yes, funny how that unlimited detail doesn't actually look so great after a supposed 13 years of development, does it? Remember the crucial point that the founder is still trying to claim that the performance is the same regardless of whether it's just one "atom" being rendered or zillions, a point you seem to have missed. This is clearly an impossible claim as I know you understand and one designed to keep the gullible hooked and "investing" money in the company.

Have you looked at the demo debunking video in my OP, yet? If not, check it out, it's quite illuminating. I tried the demo myself and it didn't look very impressive at all.

I honestly don't think anyone cares

They do:

holy shite!

 

[silentbogo]

The Crytek guy mentioned in the video is probably the most credible to take a hard look at it. As he said, it's technically possible to do.

The most credible was John Carmack, who kind of took a neutral stance on the Euclideon topic.
He did not disprove Notch's remarks on "unlimited detail" tech, but also noted that transition to voxels is quite possible in the near future.
This was in 2011, while still working on idTech 6, which uses SVO to some extent (not totally-voxelized as was speculated in 2014-15 before DOOM release).

Yes, funny how that unlimited detail doesn't actually look so great after a supposed 13 years of development, does it?

What's funnier, is that they follow the same scheme for the past 7-8 years:
1) Post the incredible demo video
2) Post some coverage/feedback from news networks who nobody knows or cares about
3) Wait for attention
4) Once you get too much criticism and get accused of fraud - become silent for a year or two
5) Start over
They still use the same "trees" demo from their first showcase from many-many moons ago.

 

[R-T-B]

On top of that, it sounds like your opinion that Minecraft was badly coded.

As a prominient minecraft reverse engineer, decompiler, and modder, frankly he's spot on. I think even Notch and Jeb have admitted this numerous times.

 

[qubit]

As a prominient minecraft reverse engineer, decompiler, and modder, frankly he's spot on. I think even Notch and Jeb have admitted this numerous times.

Ok maybe, but it's irrelevant to the point, as I explained.

 

[BiggieShady]

Their tech works, but it's not that impressive ...

... you can check the demo using chrome at http://udserver.euclideon.com/demo/index.html

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Yes really. You can't make a pithy blanket one liner dismissal like that. This is especially true as whether it's well coded or not is actually irrelevant to this point since Notch certainly knows about these graphics programming techniques whether he chooses to optimise well or not. On top of that, it sounds like your opinion that Minecraft was badly coded. Hence with all this, your dismissal doesn't hold water.

Minecraft was horrendously coded. It's extremely inefficient for what it does. Ehm, compare Notch's original Java Minecraft to the Windows Store version, for example. Yes, the Windows Store version isn't as feature rich as the Java version but it was written by professionals, not amateurs, and it shows. Just because the game went viral doesn't mean it is remotely good under the covers. Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing went viral as well (namely because of how bad it is) and it's bad inside and out.

Yes, funny how that unlimited detail doesn't actually look so great after a supposed 13 years of development, does it? Remember the crucial point that the founder is still trying to claim that the performance is the same regardless of whether it's just one "atom" being rendered or zillions, a point you seem to have missed. This is clearly an impossible claim as I know you understand and one designed to keep the gullible hooked and "investing" money in the company.

On top of that, you can see the framerate dips. It is far from fluid and anything high velocity just isn't feasible.

Have you looked at the demo debunking video in my OP, yet? If not, check it out, it's quite illuminating. I tried the demo myself and it didn't look very impressive at all.

I didn't see that. That said, I think there has to be a convergence of hardware and software. There's no doubt instructions that could be designed specific to point clouds that could hugely improve performance. Couple that with software optimizations and it will eventually be possible. I concur with him though that this is all very premature.

 

[R-T-B]

Ok maybe, but it's irrelevant to the point, as I explained.

I know, I'm just taking any opurtunity to rib Notch really. Before he became a billionaire or whatevs, him and I actaully briefly exchanged code snippets for his old MMO, wurm online. I doubt I'm important enough to remember now though...

Sorry for the tangent, ancient history, from back when Java was cool.

 

[erocker]

Why do people feel compelled to keep posting this scam? Do you know how long this has been going on?

 

[RejZoR]

How is it a scam when they have a functional thing on small scale? It's not like you just toss the tech into Maya and voila it churns out polygons converted to this thing. Things aren't that easy and they aren't a multibillion corporation.

 

[Frick]

I know, I'm just taking any opurtunity to rib Notch really. Before he became a billionaire or whatevs, him and I actaully briefly exchanged code snippets for his old MMO, wurm online. I doubt I'm important enough to remember now though...

Sorry for the tangent, ancient history, from back when Java was cool.

WTF YOU WORKED ON WURM? You hero you! Also, I had no idea Notch had to do with it. Makes kinda sense though, looking at Minecraft.

 

[R-T-B]

WTF YOU WORKED ON WURM? You hero you! Also, I had no idea Notch had to do with it. Makes kinda sense though, looking at Minecraft.

Not officially, I provided one fix pointer for them.

Notch was the Wurm client dev for a long ass time, when men hovered above horses...

 

[Frick]

Not officially, I provided one fix pointer for them.

Good enough.

 

[R-T-B]

How is it a scam when they have a functional thing on small scale? It's not like you just toss the tech into Maya and voila it churns out polygons converted to this thing. Things aren't that easy and they aren't a multibillion corporation.

It's a scam because infinite data points = impossible.

And actually, tech to convert polygons to rough voxel-likes exist. I worked on one for Minecraft of all things. This isn't that different.

 

[RejZoR]

I hope you do realize "infinite" doesn't actually mean infinite...

 

[Steevo]

It's being developed the way Solar Roadways is being developed.

Poorly, with no scientific basis, no real data provided, lots of promises based on feels instead of reals, lots of unrepeatable anecdotes and carefully worded requests for money so they can claim innocence when it doesn't work out due to unforseen or technical problems with hardware.

 

[silentbogo]

How is it a scam when they have a functional thing on small scale? It's not like you just toss the tech into Maya and voila it churns out polygons converted to this thing. Things aren't that easy and they aren't a multibillion corporation.

Here are at least few reasons:
1) They have this "revolutionary tech" since 2008, and so far it found no practical application beyond their proprietary 3D-scanning software
2) Regardless of their marketing bullshit, this tech is still limited by hardware.
3) They are marketing to the wrong crowd
4) They do not learn from their mistakes, because they are still doing #3
5) Euclideon is not invested into progress, because they are still fed with govt. grants from Australia

The problem is not the absence of tech, it's the absence of dev. tools or anything that the actual people can use... Not even a ridiculously-overpriced commercial game engine...
All they have is a geoverse and solidscan, same as in 2013.

I hope you do realize "infinite" doesn't actually mean infinite...

But that's their headline in promo videos: the Euclideon technology allows streaming voxels from a virtually infinite dataset without affecting the performance.
Nothing said about the actual rendering engine, since the streamlined selection is so small, that their froggies and palm trees look like mutated bricks.

 

[Slizzo]

Was just wondering about this the other day. I guess it's good to see they're still working on it? I don't know, I don't have any skin in that game so if it never happens, no sweat off my sack..