The Truly Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard

[VSG]

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in its current revisions 227 and 229 aims to get past the issues that plagued the predecessors to re-establish a loyal customer base. It features all new switches, updated firmware, support for niche keyboard layouts, full programmability and more in a form factor smaller than most keyboards.

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[Camm]

I know this sounds silly, but how did the layout survive with gaming? Specifically how the space bar is staggered in two.

 

[zo0lykas]

jess srsly ? look at price, nowadays peoples for this money can get a scrap car

i like this keyboard, but price... :/ max i would pay for keyboard is £70

 

[VSG]

I know this sounds silly, but how did the layout survive with gaming? Specifically how the space bar is staggered in two.

Surprisingly, not that bad. I played some Doom and Half Life 2 (because why not?) and I did not feel it was out of the ordinary. This was after 2 weeks of getting used to the layout though, and the first week was very hard- especially the buttons in the middle which I tended to use the index fingers on despite them being intended for the two thumbs. After a while it felt relatively normal.

jess srsly ? look at price, nowadays peoples for this money can get a scrap car

i like this keyboard, but price... :/ max i would pay for keyboard is £70

Ergonomic keyboards are an extremely small market, so pricing is always high due to the low volume sales as well as initial R&D. This keyboard, for example, involved a collaboration with some experts in the medical field and you know how expensive that can get

 

[mroofie]

Kill it with fire

 

[neatfeatguy]

Sweet! Mechanical ergo keyboard!

The price....argh! It also lacks a numeric keypad. Granted the same company offers a numeric keypad, but it costs $65! You're looking at nearly $300 for the keyboard + numeric keypad.

Now I'm sad. Plus, only a 1 year warranty....for nearly $300 for keyboard + keypad, I'd expect a much more robust warranty coverage.....

 

[VSG]

Sweet! Mechanical ergo keyboard!

The price....argh! It also lacks a numeric keypad. Granted the same company offers a numeric keypad, but it costs $65! You're looking at nearly $300 for the keyboard + numeric keypad.

Now I'm sad. Plus, only a 1 year warranty....for nearly $300 for keyboard + keypad, I'd expect a much more robust warranty coverage.....

The number keys are close enough to where I didn't feel a dedicated numpad is needed to be honest, but if you do there are less expensive options, including wireless ones with mechanical switches and even RGB backlighting

 

[notb]

Years go by and we see more and more "ergonomic" keyboards - basically each "perfect for human hands" and each different from the last one...

There is a reason why a typical keyboard looks how it looks. Most of these bent designs are simply trying to be different than the canonical one - I'd be amazed if someone actually makes a proper test of how they affect the user.
Also, think about other consequences: having to learn a new layout (touch typing, muscle memory) and a possibility, that it will affect your abilities to use a "normal" one.

As for the ergonomics - I think there is a good analogy with tools.
Let's look at axes (just because I like axes ^^).
We have all these weird designs that are meant to be "ergonomic", modern, effective or whatever. Every lumberman or orthopedist will tell you this is all bulls.it and that the best handle is a simple stick.
So as a result, this is what we get in survival / military-style products:

And this is how an actual professional axe looks ("professional" as in: meant to be used in high stress, for long periods of time):

 

[neatfeatguy]

Years go by and we see more and more "ergonomic" keyboards - basically each "perfect for human hands" and each different from the last one...

There is a reason why a typical keyboard looks how it looks. Most of these bent designs are simply trying to be different than the canonical one - I'd be amazed if someone actually makes a proper test of how they affect the user.
Also, think about other consequences: having to learn a new layout (touch typing, muscle memory) and a possibility, that it will affect your abilities to use a "normal" one.

As for the ergonomics - I think there is a good analogy with tools.
Let's look at axes (just because I like axes ^^).
We have all these weird designs that are meant to be "ergonomic", modern, effective or whatever. Every lumberman or orthopedist will tell you this is all bulls.it and that the best handle is a simple stick.
So as a result, this is what we get in survival / military-style products:

And this is how an actual professional axe looks ("professional" as in: meant to be used in high stress, for long periods of time):

When I started my last job and then moved to my current one, I'm at the computer 90% of my work day. Both companies had the cheap, Dell keyboards (see below). I had no issues using them aside from the fact that I have to constantly pull my arms in and over a long enough period, it becomes very uncomfortable.

After a few weeks of using these basic keyboards my elbows, wrists and especially my right shoulder started to hurt. I have pull in my elbows, turn my wrists and having a trick shoulder (dislocated it a few times), it put extra stress on my joints and causes a lot of discomfort.

I have a good ergonomic keyboard at home (at least the best one I've enjoyed using) and I have no issues like this when at home gaming or using the computer for everyday things. This is the one I use at home:

I know some people don't really care much about it, but having a keyboard that allows me to type without having to pull in my elbows and turning my wrists in keeps them and my shoulder from hurting. It got to a point where I ended up tracking down a couple more (prices can vary greatly on these things - $15 to $150+ if it's NIB since this keyboard was discontinued mid/late 2000s). A few days after getting a couple more of these keyboards and using them at my work my elbows, wrists and shoulder stopped hurting.

I've tried a handful of other ergonomic keyboards, but most of them are crappy. Cheap keys (letters wear off after a month or two), keys stick for no reason, have some crappy faux leather wrist support that crumbles away after a couple of months.

The only thing I don't like, but I've grown used to, are the arrow key layout on this keyboard. Usually the up arrow is on the top and the left/down/right arrows are in a row and not staggered like they are on this board. But, I've gotten used to it so I guess it really doesn't bother me anymore.

The number keys are close enough to where I didn't feel a dedicated numpad is needed to be honest, but if you do there are less expensive options, including wireless ones with mechanical switches and even RGB backlighting

I guess it's just habitual to use it when I'm typing out a lot of numbers into a spreadsheet. I can use the top row, but it's not as fast of a method for me. Also, I do have a MUD I play that I make use of the numeric keypad.

 

[notb]

When I started my last job and then moved to my current one, I'm at the computer 90% of my work day. Both companies had the cheap, Dell keyboards (see below). I had no issues using them aside from the fact that I have to constantly pull my arms in and over a long enough period, it becomes very uncomfortable.

Like this?

Well... so you can change your keyboard, but you might as well change how you hold your arms while typing.
Think about it: idut's very unlikely that we'll see many laptops with split/ergonomic keyboards...

I actually found a picture showing what seems to be a better way:

However, this is described as a wrong position, because the elbows are far from the body (they call this "winging": http://www.ergovancouver.net/Problems-Shoulder.htm)

I think this idea is excellent - it's the distance to keyboard that's wrong.
If you place the keyboard so that spacebar is ~40cm from your eyes, you'll have a lot of desk between you and the keyboard. It will support your arms and you'll have your elbows almost touching the breast.
IMO the issue that results in "winging" is: people buy very shallow desks - designed for laptops. If you check the ubiquitous IKEA, most desks are 50-60cm.
That's too shallow and makes you sit either:
- very close to the LCD and keyboard - abusing both eyes and arms
or
- very far from the desk, which makes your arms hang...

 

[VSG]

Great post, and I agree that desk space ends up being a massive factor here. This is also why most ergonomic keyboards coming out are split or at the very least shorter in length, and the former helps place the two pieces wherever you like such as this one I covered before: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ErgoDox_EZ/Shine/

I am planning to cover more of such designs because I think they deserve attention also, but a few things are common to most I have seen- ortholinear key caps, programmability, split key arrangement be it physically or simply placed apart as with this one.

 

[neatfeatguy]

Like this?

Well... so you can change your keyboard, but you might as well change how you hold your arms while typing.
Think about it: idut's very unlikely that we'll see many laptops with split/ergonomic keyboards...

I actually found a picture showing what seems to be a better way:

However, this is described as a wrong position, because the elbows are far from the body (they call this "winging": http://www.ergovancouver.net/Problems-Shoulder.htm)

I think this idea is excellent - it's the distance to keyboard that's wrong.
If you place the keyboard so that spacebar is ~40cm from your eyes, you'll have a lot of desk between you and the keyboard. It will support your arms and you'll have your elbows almost touching the breast.
IMO the issue that results in "winging" is: people buy very shallow desks - designed for laptops. If you check the ubiquitous IKEA, most desks are 50-60cm.
That's too shallow and makes you sit either:
- very close to the LCD and keyboard - abusing both eyes and arms
or
- very far from the desk, which makes your arms hang...

I've got roughly 13" between the edge of my desk at work and the spacebar on my keyboard - this was the same for the basic keyboard I was using and my current ergo one. My arms rest upon the desk and my elbows fall at a natural position and they also are resting on the desk.

Using a basic keyboard, no matter how you position yourself (at least me) or how much space you have, I still have to pull my elbows in and also still turn my wrists. After extended periods of time it just hurts my joints. I'm not old so that's not the issue, but the unnatural position I have to put my arms/wrists into for long periods makes it uncomfortable.

Ergo keyboards are great. They remove the unnecessary stress, for me, on my elbows, wrists and shoulder.

As for laptops - I don't use them. I hate the tiny little crappy keyboards and how my hands feel giant....almost like laptop keyboards were designed for children under the age of 10 and not suited well for the average adult.

 

[notb]

Using a basic keyboard, no matter how you position yourself (at least me) or how much space you have, I still have to pull my elbows in and also still turn my wrists. After extended periods of time it just hurts my joints. I'm not old so that's not the issue, but the unnatural position I have to put my arms/wrists into for long periods makes it uncomfortable.

I'd use the word "unnatural" more carefully.
We're talking about using a keyboard, but we're still pretty much monkeys. Sitting at a desk and using a PC is and (will be in our lifetime) something, which in my country's medical language is called "forced position" - you're forcing your body to do something it isn't prepared for.

If the ergonomic keyboard solves your problem (at least for now) - fine. I'm just saying good results can be achieved by changing the position yourself - without changing the equipment.

For me using an ergonomic (especially split) keyboard would be limiting, because I tend to use key combinations using both halves of the keyboard with one hand. Generally, I tend to move around the keyboard a lot. Maybe this helps, as I have a less fixed, stationary body position.

But in general, I think I'm simply prejudiced about using such a weird keyboard. It's a bit like with people remapping keys on their keyboards, because they decide something custom (or even the more common Dvorak).

As for laptops - I don't use them. I hate the tiny little crappy keyboards and how my hands feel giant....almost like laptop keyboards were designed for children under the age of 10 and not suited well for the average adult.

If you have the choice - fine. But most people don't. We get laptops at work or buy them ourselves - to be mobile or save space at home.
But saving space can't mean you're getting a "cramped" workplace.

As for the keyboard being too small - I think most of this impression comes from a poor design. Keyboards found in some laptops (namely: almost all cheap "home" ones and many gaming models) simply are bad. It has little to do with the size.

 

[n3m3515com]

I'm a computer programmer and gamer so I spend a fair bit of time in front of the computer. I touch type as well, which seems to be a lot rarer than I would have thought, so my hands and arms are usually in a constant position throughout the day and try and use the mouse as little as possible which isn't too hard once you get used to keyboard shortcuts (another thing people/developers/software seems to utilize less as time goes by).
Anyway.....I absolutely hate normal keyboards because of how it forces your elbows in and your hands to bend at angles (as shown in the image provided by notb above). I contract in many different companies and I take a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard wherever I go and would never go back to a normal keyboard again.

Sure I have to endure a little keyboard on my Surface but it is not sustained over a long period of time.
Because I'm a gamer I felt a little left out when it came to all the mechanical keyboards because there was little choice that catered for typing and gaming so I went with the Kinesis Advantage Pro which takes a bit to get used to.....

That is an expensive keyboard however!

I'm interested in trying the new ErgoDox Ez that VSG reviewed earlier.

 

[VSG]

Speaking of Kinesis and new ergo/split keyboards at a potential bargain: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/294674098/freestyle-edge-the-ultimate-split-gaming-keyboard

 

[n3m3515com]

Speaking of Kinesis and new ergo/split keyboards at a potential bargain: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/294674098/freestyle-edge-the-ultimate-split-gaming-keyboard

That is awesome.....thank you very much for posting that as I would have completely missed it otherwise. Definitely going to pledge some money for one of those.

 

[VSG]

That is awesome.....thank you very much for posting that as I would have completely missed it otherwise. Definitely going to pledge some money for one of those.

My pleasure, it looks like an interesting product and the company is well established so there should be minimal risk.

 

[neatfeatguy]

I'm a computer programmer and gamer so I spend a fair bit of time in front of the computer. I touch type as well, which seems to be a lot rarer than I would have thought, so my hands and arms are usually in a constant position throughout the day and try and use the mouse as little as possible which isn't too hard once you get used to keyboard shortcuts (another thing people/developers/software seems to utilize less as time goes by).
Anyway.....I absolutely hate normal keyboards because of how it forces your elbows in and your hands to bend at angles (as shown in the image provided by notb above). I contract in many different companies and I take a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard wherever I go and would never go back to a normal keyboard again.

I tried that MS keyboard - it sucks as a keyboard. The layout works for me (it's very similar to the MS Natural keyboard I use), but the actual quality sucks. The spacebar would stick to the point you'd have to hit it hard for it to depress, the letters faded off almost all the keys in about 3 months (made it too hard for my little kids and wife to use), the wrist rest covering flaked off and the foam padding below it crumbled.....what a POS. Thankfully I bought it on sale and only wasted about $25 on it after shipping charges. I thought it might be a nice upgrade from the old model I've been using.....but I was sorely mistaken. I threw it out after about 5 months and went back to my MS Natural Elite.

The only issue with my keyboard is that it's PS/2 and not USB. It's becoming a common thing now that PS/2 ports are not being included on motherboards. So if I have to take my keyboard somewhere, I need to be sure to take a PS/2 to USB adapter so I'm not SOL.

I've looked at that Kinesis Advantage Pro before - but the high price on some of these keyboards are what keep me from trying them. I'd hate to spend $100/200/300 on some of these "ergo" keyboards to find out they just don't work for me. I can't justify the high cost on these keyboards in taking a chance I might like using them.

 

[n3m3515com]

I tried that MS keyboard - it sucks as a keyboard. The layout works for me (it's very similar to the MS Natural keyboard I use), but the actual quality sucks. The spacebar would stick to the point you'd have to hit it hard for it to depress, the letters faded off almost all the keys in about 3 months (made it too hard for my little kids and wife to use), the wrist rest covering flaked off and the foam padding below it crumbled.....what a POS. Thankfully I bought it on sale and only wasted about $25 on it after shipping charges. I thought it might be a nice upgrade from the old model I've been using.....but I was sorely mistaken. I threw it out after about 5 months and went back to my MS Natural Elite.

The only issue with my keyboard is that it's PS/2 and not USB. It's becoming a common thing now that PS/2 ports are not being included on motherboards. So if I have to take my keyboard somewhere, I need to be sure to take a PS/2 to USB adapter so I'm not SOL.

I've looked at that Kinesis Advantage Pro before - but the high price on some of these keyboards are what keep me from trying them. I'd hate to spend $100/200/300 on some of these "ergo" keyboards to find out they just don't work for me. I can't justify the high cost on these keyboards in taking a chance I might like using them.

Unfortunately I would have to agree that the MS Natural 4000 keyboard isn't great build quality and as a result I've had to buy a few over the years. I also have the Microsoft Natural 7000 wireless version but a lot of places I do contract work with don't allow foreign USB devices to be connected to a computer so I have to stay with a USB connected device. The Kinesis Advantage is a great keyboard but it's one downfall is the fact that all the function keys aren't mechanical and now my F5 button doesn't work (Big deal for me because that is a shortcut for refreshing screen contents, browser, file explorer, and most other software).
The main concern I have about the ErgoDox Ez and other split keyboards is that there doesn't seem to be a device that keeps the two halves at the same orientation and distance apart so I would feel like I'm constantly trying to adapt to slight changes in the keyboards position and therefore forever adjusting them.

Might re-read VSG's review of the ErgoDox to see if he made mention of this?

 

[VSG]

Unfortunately I would have to agree that the MS Natural 4000 keyboard isn't great build quality and as a result I've had to buy a few over the years. I also have the Microsoft Natural 7000 wireless version but a lot of places I do contract work with don't allow foreign USB devices to be connected to a computer so I have to stay with a USB connected device. The Kinesis Advantage is a great keyboard but it's one downfall is the fact that all the function keys aren't mechanical and now my F5 button doesn't work (Big deal for me because that is a shortcut for refreshing screen contents, browser, file explorer, and most other software).
The main concern I have about the ErgoDox Ez and other split keyboards is that there doesn't seem to be a device that keeps the two halves at the same orientation and distance apart so I would feel like I'm constantly trying to adapt to slight changes in the keyboards position and therefore forever adjusting them.

Might re-read VSG's review of the ErgoDox to see if he made mention of this?

No, the two halves are independent of each other in terms of positioning. However, I never had them moving or fiddled with them myself.