The TPU UK Clubhouse

[FreedomEclipse]

Completely different kettle of Fish and totally Irrelevant
Postal Service and the use of Temporary Workers is an ongoing Seasonal demand thing ( Think Christmas post ) like carrot and cabbage pickers in Norfolk.

Security is not a Seasonal Thing

we had a massive influx of agency staff to the point where RM's own temps that they personally recruited were marginalised

 

[dorsetknob]

we had a massive influx of agency staff to the point where RM's own temps that they personally recruited were marginalised

"Ah you poor things with fragile Ego's">>>> 6 weeks later their all gone
what you were talking about is untrained/unvetted/unskilled people being given Security powers over the General Public
A big no no No NO
The British government have a large pool of trained/training people who are paid part time who could be Deployed for Internal Security as needed
they are called the T.A

 

[TheMailMan78]

Yall could round up 9% of the population and throw them out. Problem solved.

OR you could stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings and round up the few trouble makers. This dude was on the radar. Lock his ass up. I mean whats the point of living in a police state if you aint even safe. From an outsiders perspective (Somewhat educated on UK culture but NOT a authority by any means.) you guys have become too PC in the past 30 years. Yall need to go a little Churchill on this bullshit.

Again I'm speaking as an outsider that doesn't know the ins and outs of the average UK citizen. But the whole super tolerance thing isn't working.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

"Ah you poor things with fragile Ego's">>>> 6 weeks later their all gone
what you were talking about is untrained/unvetted/unskilled people being given Security powers over the General Public
A big no no No NO
The British government have a large pool of trained/training people who are paid part time who could be Deployed for Internal Security as needed
they are called the T.A

We're not untrained/unvetted/unskilled btw -- we all have to be vetted & trained to the Security Industry Authority Standards. The S.I.A are a Non-departmental public body which has some ties to the government.

but of course, you dont know because you dont work in that field.

The T.A would be better suited for the job, but they would struggle to cover the entire of the UK and they cost more to train and would expect to get paid more where as security guards in general dont unless youre working on very high tier contracts where some get paid £13p/h or higher.

 

[the54thvoid]

Yall could round up 9% of the population and throw them out. Problem solved.

OR you could stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings and round up the few trouble makers. This dude was on the radar. Lock his ass up. I mean whats the point of living in a police state if you aint even safe. From an outsiders perspective (Somewhat educated on UK culture but NOT a authority by any means.) you guys have become too PC in the past 30 years. Yall need to go a little Churchill on this bullshit.

Again I'm speaking as an outsider that doesn't know the ins and outs of the average UK citizen. But the whole super tolerance thing isn't working.

We're actually not super tolerant. It's why we're leaving the EU. But it only takes one person to commit murder. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't practical or sensible.
Timothy McVeigh is still high on the US list for terrorist deaths. In the UK we have our own white, non religious mass murderers (Thomas Hamilton with Dunblane etc).
We also do arrest a lot of possible terrorists but proof is often hard to get.
It's all about the ideology and the rhetoric. I agree though that people are too afraid to say there is a Muslim issue but the problem is, it's a significant minority. It's also a Sunni issue, not Shia, not other sects. And guess who the biggest Sunni state is? Saudi. And both UK and US governments suck up to the sheik because of the arms deals.

There are no answers to the problems, short of religious genocide and that's hardly fair or proportionate.

 

[TheMailMan78]

We're actually not super tolerant. It's why we're leaving the EU. But it only takes one person to commit murder. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't practical or sensible.
Timothy McVeigh is still high on the US list for terrorist deaths. In the UK we have our own white, non religious mass murderers (Thomas Hamilton with Dunblane etc).
We also do arrest a lot of possible terrorists but proof is often hard to get.
It's all about the ideology and the rhetoric. I agree though that people are too afraid to say there is a Muslim issue but the problem is, it's a significant minority. It's also a Sunni issue, not Shia, not other sects. And guess who the biggest Sunni state is? Saudi. And both UK and US governments suck up to the sheik because of the arms deals.

There are no answers to the problems, short of religious genocide and that's hardly fair or proportionate.

Naaa you could round up people and send em out. No need for genocide.

 

[dorsetknob]

but of course, you dont know because you dont work in that field.

I suggest that seeing as you have no knowledge of the Fields i have worked in or my acquaintance of others who may work it those Fields that you quietly exit the Thread before you drop further lumps of brown matter into your conversation

 

[FreedomEclipse]

I suggest that seeing as you have no knowledge of the Fields i have worked in or my acquaintance of others who may work it those Filds that you quietly exit the Thread before you drop further lumps of brown matter into your conversation

I work those fields so i dont need to back out of anything

 

[TheMailMan78]

GUYS, GUYS, CAN WE JUST AGREE THAT PEOPLE NEED TO DIE? WHO DOES IT, DOESNT MATTER.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

"Ah you poor things with fragile Ego's">>>> 6 weeks later their all gone
what you were talking about is untrained/unvetted/unskilled people being given Security powers over the General Public
A big no no No NO
The British government have a large pool of trained/training people who are paid part time who could be Deployed for Internal Security as needed
they are called the T.A

Also for arguments sake -- I was with Royal Mail for 6 years, Not 6 days, 6 weeks or 6months.

as for your comment about about "untrained/unvetted/unskilled people being given Security powers over the General Public" - you have no idea who i work for Unless your friends are a bunch of 'untrained/unvetted/unskilled people'.

With G4S its a different story as they bit off a bit off more then could chew with the olympics and other incidents.

you dont know where I work, or how I work but its easy to be ignorant and tar us all with the same brush without any knowledge

 

[scevism]

On a sad day for humanity again! R.I.P and my favourite james bond actor rodger moore passed away today. GUTTED

 

[FreedomEclipse]

 

[the54thvoid]

Naaa you could round up people and send em out. No need for genocide.

I agree with that. We actually did try quite a few times in the past but you know what stopped us? The European Convention on Human Rights. The ECHR is a great piece of work but the fucking lawyers got all over it and made it a safe haven for hate preachers. That's one of the reasons I dont like Europe - it's court has jurisdiction over our own national soverignty. Bye bye ECHR, hello UKCHR.

It's a real shame because most people of faith are very reasonable but its the right wing nut jobs that ruin the fun for all.

 

[TheMailMan78]

I agree with that. We actually did try quite a few times in the past but you know what stopped us? The European Convention on Human Rights. The ECHR is a great piece of work but the fucking lawyers got all over it and made it a safe haven for hate preachers. That's one of the reasons I dont like Europe - it's court has jurisdiction over our own national soverignty. Bye bye ECHR, hello UKCHR.

It's a real shame because most people of faith are very reasonable but its the right wing nut jobs that ruin the fun for all.

With Brexit this could change no? I mean you are a sovereign nation for shit sakes. Round up the alah-peanutbutter sandwiches and throw em out if they wont adapt to the queens law.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

I agree with that. We actually did try quite a few times in the past but you know what stopped us? The European Convention on Human Rights. The ECHR is a great piece of work but the fucking lawyers got all over it and made it a safe haven for hate preachers. That's one of the reasons I dont like Europe - it's court has jurisdiction over our own national soverignty. Bye bye ECHR, hello UKCHR.

It's a real shame because most people of faith are very reasonable but its the right wing nut jobs that ruin the fun for all.

One thing which is funny, is they'll shout their hate for the West & the western way of life to the high heavens, cause atrocities against innocent people but yet. Here they are living in the UK/USA, eating, sleeping and breathing on British soil...... BUT... Yet they hate it so much.... We should give these people a free one way ticket out of the country and forward their details on to organisations like Interpol and have their passports voided


If you hate this place so much, Why stay??

 

[dorsetknob]

The T.A would be better suited for the job, but they would struggle to cover the entire of the UK and they cost more to train

Yes they ARE better suited for the job They Receive the same Training as the FULL TIME ARMY including how to kill in defense of the Realm and the political needs/whims of the goverment in Power
AS a unified Command and part of the Armed Forces they COVER THE ENTIRE UK and DEPENDENT OVERSEAS TERRITORIES

and would expect to get paid more where as security guards in general dont unless youre working on very high tier contracts where some get paid £13p/h or higher.

WRONG ON THAT
They Serve the Government of Queen Elisabeth and receive the Same Pay as the Regular Army ( pro rata) and as such do as they are Ordered.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Yes they ARE better suited for the job They Receive the same Training as the FULL TIME ARMY including how to kill in defense of the Realm and the political needs/whims of the goverment in Power
AS a unified Command and part of the Armed Forces they COVER THE ENTIRE UK and DEPENDENT OVERSEAS TERRITORIES


WRONG ON THAT
They Serve the Government of Queen Elisabeth and receive the Same Pay as the Regular Army ( pro rata) and as such do as they are Ordered.

COST -- It costs a lot more time and money to train people like this for full coverage. Also the public might not like the fact that these people are armed even though it may be a necessary evil. Not everyone can join the T.A and your comparison of a trained security guard vs a trained T.A 'soldier' are on different ends of the scale and cant be compared Thus its not completely 100% feasible unless you have them take over guarding the tourist hotspots.

We already have armed police guarding tourist hotspots but my comment was pointing out that Private Security patrolling the streets where Police do not or cant provide coverage to provide a some form of security presence in that area. Not to mention the fact that these crazy people will be out to kill or kidnap them. Remember drummer Rigby and the missing RAF guy who is still missing AFIK??

What im talking about goes beyond what the T.A can cover unless you bring back National Service to make sure everyone is trained to that standard so it would be easy to recruit people and have them out patrolling your local streets


:EDIT::

if youre going to be going down that road, you may as well call Martial Law or turn the UK into a military state

 

[Tatty_Two]

A number of points here I would comment on, as objectively as possible, interesting read with some interesting thoughts and opinions. Firstly, there is indeed a "watch list", 20 years ago it used to have around 4000 people on it, as of around last October, if my memory serves me correctly there was around 64,000 on it, I agree that today the police and counter terrorist services are woefully under resourced, so there are now 4, maybe even 5 tiers within that watch list, apparently we have the resources to only really "watch" in the truest sense of the word around 2000 I think, I don't comment just based on my past experience but of that I will explain no further.

As for the TA (now just simply called the regular reserve as they also comprise of ex regulars most of which have a reserve commitment until they are 55), apart from the fact that they have full time jobs and employers are only required to release them under certain circumstances and with very clear legislation (one example is the legal declaration of war, voted for in the UN etc), in many cases, Ops such as Afghanistan and Iraq sought volunteers to plug gaps because legally the TA could not be deployed without that declaration of war, there are some exemptions for certain specialisations. Thing is, even if they could the majority are not equipped for urban counter terrorism roles, pretty much all the real expertise we had in this field ended with peace in Northern Ireland, most TA unit's have specialist roles (Medical, Logistics, Communications, Engineers), this enables them to have just 10% of the training time of the Regular Army but still have highly skilled reserve Forces, it's just in narrow fields of expertise if you get my drift. Of course you also have TA Infantry, some of these units are "role specific", so a few may have a "Home defence" role but in general terms they are in some cases "Jack's of all trades", there is a very good reason why law enforcement has specialist anti terrorist units and the Armed forces have the SAS, SBS etc and that's because that's all they do, day in and day out, train, train, then train again to make them the very best, sadly gone are the days where a regular Infantry battalion would move to Catterick Garrison having spent 5 years in Cyprus in a peacekeeping role to then spend 5 years in a Northern Ireland reinforcement role.

So, we find ourselves in 2017, with a police force roughly half the size it was 30 years ago, with an Armed Forces roughly half the size it was 30 years ago and with budgets to match (when I joined there was still a cold war, the British Army had 7 operational warfighting divisions), 4 of which were permanently located in Germany, we now have only 1 truly deployable Division and what......... we wonder why, when the threat during those 30 years has increased 10 fold, despite the end of the cold war and peace in NI that we struggle to cope? Answer? (just to divide opinion), when we have significant terrorist threats, don't let them fester for 10 or 15 years paying lip service to trying to minimise the impact and holding hands with those that either encourage or harbour them, go in there and eradicate the problem with massive force and viable intelligence from the get go, you can't cock about with these people, give them half a chance and they will take your loved ones away from you.............. I stress, I am not including the likes of the Iraq invasion in this which was a different scenario and one that I on a personal level did not support.

Apologies for rant, at best if you read this you may sleep well tonight

 

[Beastie]

If they know who he was so soon after he must have been known to the police. Someone has dropped a big bollock.

Problem is that until they do something wrong there is no reason to lock them up. And locking up innocent people is a pretty sure way to radicalise them and make the problem worse.

Maybe we need a bigger police force and security services enough to counter these threats??

For one. my company is looking to move into that side of the industry. As frontline police officer numbers dwindle due to cuts, Private Security Services will be the ones to take over patrolling the streets (according to my company) and my company is looking for a pretty big peice of that pie

Great, police specials are bad enough, the last thing I need is for rentacops to mess me around while I go about my lawful business.
Plus most of these companies like G4 and Serco couldn't be trusted to run a piss up in a brewery.



The ony sure fire way is to tackle this at source, which is in large part Saudi Arabian fundamentalism. But we are too busy selling weapons to them and buying oil off them. Easier to demonise some tin pot dictator like Saddam or Assad from whom there is no revenue stream, even if they are no threat to us.

Terrorism actually plays into the hands of politicians as it gives them the chance to increase state power and garner votes by talking "tough on terrorism" while doing nothing useful.
Hark at May talking up the police and emergency services when it was her who oversaw their budgets being slashed when she was running the Home Office.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Problem is that until they do something wrong there is no reason to lock them up. And locking up innocent people is a pretty sure way to radicalise them and make the problem worse.



Great, police specials are bad enough, the last thing I need is for rentacops to mess me around while I go about my lawful business.
Plus most of these companies like G4 and Serco couldn't be trusted to run a piss up in a brewery.



The ony sure fire way is to tackle this at source, which is in large part Saudi Arabian fundamentalism. But we are too busy selling weapons to them and buying oil off them. Easier to demonise some tin pot dictator like Saddam or Assad from whom there is no revenue stream, even if they are no threat to us.

Terrorism actually plays into the hands of politicians as it gives them the chance to increase state power and garner votes by talking "tough on terrorism" while doing nothing useful.
Hark at May talking up the police and emergency services when it was her who oversaw their budgets being slashed when she was running the Home Office.

and i work for neither of these companies

 

[the54thvoid]

Question: If I call your god a fanny will you get aggressive?

If the answer is yes - lock them up and deport their family to Saudi. If they're christian, deport them to Hull or Dundee. Jews never get offended.

If the answer is no - shake their hand and let them get on their way.

 

[Beastie]

and i work for neither of these companies

I don't know where I said you did.

But they would be likely to win contracts for private security, if such were put out to tender.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

They just raised the UK threat level to Critical....which means a perceived Imminent attack

What i read in to that is that the cell has been rumbled and they are on the loose.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Problem is that until they do something wrong there is no reason to lock them up. And locking up innocent people is a pretty sure way to radicalise them and make the problem worse.



Great, police specials are bad enough, the last thing I need is for rentacops to mess me around while I go about my lawful business.
Plus most of these companies like G4 and Serco couldn't be trusted to run a piss up in a brewery.



The ony sure fire way is to tackle this at source, which is in large part Saudi Arabian fundamentalism. But we are too busy selling weapons to them and buying oil off them. Easier to demonise some tin pot dictator like Saddam or Assad from whom there is no revenue stream, even if they are no threat to us.

Terrorism actually plays into the hands of politicians as it gives them the chance to increase state power and garner votes by talking "tough on terrorism" while doing nothing useful.
Hark at May talking up the police and emergency services when it was her who oversaw their budgets being slashed when she was running the Home Office.

As someone from Manchester I'm obviously wounded by this though I know few directly affected and no one hurt by last night's incident, I've been thinking like many.
And I went down some wrong avenues of thought but resolved them to be wrong via intelligent thinking.
Its lead me to feel like in a way we as a nation have in a way let down both the victims and the terrorist , he was unfortunately(in a way to me) a fellow Mancunian , went similar schools to mine , mine were roman Catholic biased very very heavily.
But some how he left school ,able to be turned into a extremist without the mental reasoning that would stop that , people learn what they are taught ,we know this and we educate kids against some kinds of bad man or thought or event, maybe we should be more focused on training life skills to kids and working harder to educate against extreme view's.

I can't see any bad points about my school's but have to admit on reflection they were secular.
Segregation doesn't help though we all need to know and understand our neighbour , ive a few Muslim friends i hold dear, respect and trust impecably but i likely don't have many because i lived in a Irish community, not mixed.

It's really so few this mental, remember that , in my early years the Ira were in full swing and my Longford Ireland, born dad occasionally got stick for his heritage though he's no more then a sweet funny man , time heals but we never forget.

 

[TheMailMan78]

A number of points here I would comment on, as objectively as possible, interesting read with some interesting thoughts and opinions. Firstly, there is indeed a "watch list", 20 years ago it used to have around 4000 people on it, as of around last October, if my memory serves me correctly there was around 64,000 on it, I agree that today the police and counter terrorist services are woefully under resourced, so there are now 4, maybe even 5 tiers within that watch list, apparently we have the resources to only really "watch" in the truest sense of the word around 2000 I think, I don't comment just based on my past experience but of that I will explain no further.

As for the TA (now just simply called the regular reserve as they also comprise of ex regulars most of which have a reserve commitment until they are 55), apart from the fact that they have full time jobs and employers are only required to release them under certain circumstances and with very clear legislation (one example is the legal declaration of war, voted for in the UN etc), in many cases, Ops such as Afghanistan and Iraq sought volunteers to plug gaps because legally the TA could not be deployed without that declaration of war, there are some exemptions for certain specialisations. Thing is, even if they could the majority are not equipped for urban counter terrorism roles, pretty much all the real expertise we had in this field ended with peace in Northern Ireland, most TA unit's have specialist roles (Medical, Logistics, Communications, Engineers), this enables them to have just 10% of the training time of the Regular Army but still have highly skilled reserve Forces, it's just in narrow fields of expertise if you get my drift. Of course you also have TA Infantry, some of these units are "role specific", so a few may have a "Home defence" role but in general terms they are in some cases "Jack's of all trades", there is a very good reason why law enforcement has specialist anti terrorist units and the Armed forces have the SAS, SBS etc and that's because that's all they do, day in and day out, train, train, then train again to make them the very best, sadly gone are the days where a regular Infantry battalion would move to Catterick Garrison having spent 5 years in Cyprus in a peacekeeping role to then spend 5 years in a Northern Ireland reinforcement role.

So, we find ourselves in 2017, with a police force roughly half the size it was 30 years ago, with an Armed Forces roughly half the size it was 30 years ago and with budgets to match (when I joined there was still a cold war, the British Army had 7 operational warfighting divisions), 4 of which were permanently located in Germany, we now have only 1 truly deployable Division and what......... we wonder why, when the threat during those 30 years has increased 10 fold, despite the end of the cold war and peace in NI that we struggle to cope? Answer? (just to divide opinion), when we have significant terrorist threats, don't let them fester for 10 or 15 years paying lip service to trying to minimise the impact and holding hands with those that either encourage or harbour them, go in there and eradicate the problem with massive force and viable intelligence from the get go, you can't cock about with these people, give them half a chance and they will take your loved ones away from you.............. I stress, I am not including the likes of the Iraq invasion in this which was a different scenario and one that I on a personal level did not support.

Apologies for rant, at best if you read this you may sleep well tonight

Awesome post. Very informative. Question, can your government draft? I ask because it sounds like you have cut back so much for social spending you can no longer defend yourself properly. I say this from an ignorant point of view of UK politics. Am I somewhat correct in my assumption?