Mining driving up video card prices

[cdawall]

How much you wana buy my 5x 290's for??

2 months ago they would go for 250-400 depending on model. Now not so much.

 

[R-T-B]

I wish a court would rule crypto currencies are not legal tender so it costs 20 million of them to buy a pizza again. This stupidity would stop again.

You'd kill a whole industry, put a lot of people out of work, and destroy a cheap payment system all for what? To play video games cheaply again?

...

Yeah. How about we actaully look towards solving this problem with an actual new, differentiated product from AMD or NVIDIA rather than infantile "they took my candy away!" ideas like this. Especially since such a court order will rightfully never happen, at least in the majority of the west.

Or that GPU makers intentionally gimp cryptogarbage from being efficiently "mined".

Actaully, that is not a bad idea, as soon as you come up with a way to differentiate generic gaming compute from mining, that is. No one has yet.

If you ask me, the governments of the world should be shutting this cryptocurrency stuff down because it's so easy to launder money through it. You can hide illitcit and illegal transactions much easier since most cryptocurrency transactions are not tracked.

Actaully, they are all tracked. More tracked than anything actually. There is a reason we can watch a CryptoLocker malwares wallet balance live. The issue is, who is behind those numbers? They aren't identified and until someone comes up with something better, nature of the beast.

Still, there is plenty of proof that criminal transactions on these networks are in the vast minority.

 

[RejZoR]

Not really feasible. Even if they somehow managed to do it, the craze would shift to CPU sales. The best way to put out a fire is take away the fuel. The only reason why anyone bothers is because the currency is worth exceeds the value it costs to get.

An alternative path governments could reduce demand is putting exorbitant taxes on trading it. Example: $100-1000 USD per cryptocurrency transaction in the USA would almost completely stop the trading thereof in the USA. As long as that tax remains in place, there's no profit in doing it. Crypto-currencies would be confined to countries that tolerate it and their respective economies will dictate its value. If all countries tax it to death, it will die off as a currency altogether.

No it wouldn't because CPU's aren't nearly as efficient at compute of such sort.

 

[R-T-B]

No it wouldn't because CPU's aren't nearly as efficient at compute of such sort.

Exactly. It would shift to dedicated compute cards. That's what we want.

What we really need is a compute card that is REALLY good at crypto. Like 2-3x better than a gpu. No one would want a gpu anymore because economics.

This "take away the fuel" stuff is irritating to me because like it or not, this has become a line of work that employs people. We all are whining about wanting jobs? Well welcome to the future. This isn't a fire, it's a 21st century steam engine.

That and there is no legal foundation for such an order, at least in the USA.

You only need to wait.

No, simply not going to happen, sorry. People have been saying that since day 1 when this was WAY LESS legitimate and did not employ people. Didn't happen then because there was no legal way to do it. Now? It's way more legitimate, is an entire industry with huge numbers, and there is simply no one sane in government who can (or even would if they could) shut it down. They'd have to pay so many lawsuits and lose such a segment of the economy they'd still be paying for it 5 years later. No politician can afford that.

 

[Vya Domus]

Exactly. It would shift to dedicated compute cards. That's what we want.

What we really need is a compute card that is REALLY good at crypto. Like 2-3x better than a gpu. No one would want a gpu anymore because economics.

This "take away the fuel" stuff is irritating to me because like it or not, this has become a line of work that employs people. We all are whining about wanting jobs? Well welcome to the future.

That and there is no legal foundation for such an order, at least in the USA.

From my understanding , it's the algorithms that are tailored for the hardware , not the other way around. So I am unsure at how there could be a card that's generally "better" at mining. In the case of ethereum which apparently simply requires pure compute power, nothing hardware specific , I don't see how there can be a solution. The only solution that I can see is to find a way to standardize all this in order to create dedicated hardware , essentially making ASICs , at which point you'll see that all the advantages vanish for regular mining. You say people need dedicated mining cards, but you are wrong , they want the opposite so that all this can be maintained the way it is.

It's just as irritating to you as it is to the other side. How is either side more entitled than the other to be pissed ? I find this ridiculous.

Also , how is this a "line of work" that's creating jobs ? Creating income to people , yeah. But jobs ???

No, simply not going to happen, sorry. People have been saying that since day 1 when this was WAY LESS legitimate and did not employ people. Didn't happen then because there was no legal way to do it. Now? It's way more legitimate, is an entire industry with huge numbers, and there is simply no one sane in government who can (or even would if they could) shut it down. They'd have to pay so many lawsuits and lose such a segment of the economy they'd still be paying for it 5 years later. No politician can afford that.

It hasn't happened yet because it never grew big enough to pose a threat. But it might at one time , you don't honestly believe international monetary organizations will turn a blind eye ? And I was not talking about shutting it down , just them steeping in.

 

[cdawall]

Exactly. It would shift to dedicated compute cards. That's what we want.

What we really need is a compute card that is REALLY good at crypto. Like 2-3x better than a gpu. No one would want a gpu anymore because economics.

This "take away the fuel" stuff is irritating to me because like it or not, this has become a line of work that employs people. We all are whining about wanting jobs? Well welcome to the future. This isn't a fire, it's a 21st century steam engine.

I imagine the stuff out could do it if someone wrote a miner for it. Remember it wasn't long ago pascal was pretty bad at one shortage of AMD cards and everything changes. The knights landing compute cards had a recent price cut, I wouldn't be surprised if someone was playing with a miner for them right now.

 

[R-T-B]

It hasn't happened yet because it never grew big enough to pose a threat. But it might at one time , you don't honestly believe international monetary organizations will turn a blind eye ? And I was not talking about shutting it down , just them steeping in.

From everything I have read, international monetary organizations are part of the beast:

Google would show some big names with:

"blockchain banking partnership"

So yeah, not going to happen.

Also , how is this a "line of work" that's creating jobs ? Creating income to people , yeah. But jobs ???

You think ASIC/GPU farms cool themselves? Who pulls out the failed cards. Who runs the trading sites? Who writes the platforms? It's still humans until the robot revolution.

I could get a job RIGHT NOW at a mining farm near me run on good clean cheap northwest hydro power. I just prefer journalism.

From my understanding , it's the algorithms that are tailored for the hardware

Not really. The algoritms are designed to be general compute and all around difficult.

It's just as irritating to you as it is to the other side. How is either side more entitled than the other to be pissed ?

I've been on both sides. I'm actually a gamer now and no longer mine more than one card in evenings, which is a gaming card. So yeah, I know the pain of both sides. The thing is, one side produces something, the other, barely so if at all. Also there is a difference between losing your game, and losing your livelihood, and one would do well to respect that.

essentially making ASICs

Yes, that is the eventual answer, though these "ASICs" would be more generalized and do more than one currency (could also do BOINC and such). If they are made, it doesn't matter what people want, it only matters what is economical. The free market will do the rest, and normalcy will be restored.

The most obvious solution I can see is to make a brand new die, all compute cores with no graphics baggage.

 

[Sasqui]

How are the prices fairing in your part of the world?

In the US at least, the likes of Newegg and Amazon are keeping prices at retail until stock is depleted (typically within minutes), then 3rd party sellers with 25%-75% markups are next up to bat. With a little dilligence and patience, you can find a card at retail. I got an ASUS 1070 dual for $399 ($370 a/r) and a msi 1060 6gb for $260 a/r, both from Newegg. Id still have the 1060 if it didnt arrive defective, grrr.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

You'd kill a whole industry, put a lot of people out of work, and destroy a cheap payment system all for what? To play video games cheaply again?

So people stop wasting gigawatt/hours of power for the express purpose of solving a math problem that in no way furthers society. It's extremely wasteful and bad for the environment. Hell, fiat currencies are more energy efficient to produce. If crypto currencies keep on the path we're on now, the share of the global power production going towards it is going to keep climbing and climbing.

Yeah. How about we actaully look towards solving this problem with an actual new, differentiated product from AMD or NVIDIA rather than infantile "they took my candy away!" ideas like this. Especially since such a court order will rightfully never happen, at least in the majority of the west.

Cryptocurrencies are power consumption and no amount of technological improvements are going to change that. As GPUs get more powerful, the cryptocurrencies themselves have to get more difficult to discover in order for the currency to remain stable. They're literally balanced by their power draw which gives them a tangible cost compared to legal tender. Picture what kind of power generation facilities have to exist to run 1,000,000+ graphics at 100% load 24/7. That's the price of cryptocurrencies.

This goes so far beyond lack of video card inventory.


1,000,000 cards at 150w power load each is 150 MW. Let's figure in 90% power AC/DC efficiency which pumps it up to 165 MW. Let's just do that math for a month (even though many do it for much longer than that): 24 hours / day * 30 days / month = 720 hours / month. mix the two together and you get: 118.8 GW/h. That's the entire power production capacity of the country of Samao per year....in one freakin' month! If we calculate for the year, the power consumption exceeds Madagascar's entire grid. See where I'm going with this?

I'm likely lowballing all the numbers (efficiency, number of cards, power consumption per card, and how many months they operate for).

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I like the comedy involved here.
The price of gpus does take the piss ,ive bought 11 gtx 1060 over the last two weeks and got 8 for £20 dearer than the day before when I saw them available , now their 25£ dearer still and i had to buy 3 alternate ones to get them cheaper.
Ive a pre order of four 580s at £239 im waiting on that i csnt afford to not buy because resale on them is epic ( id use them though).
In the end the price is what it is , capitalism works this way and its been fine for the likes of nvidia and intel to charge too much for a desired chip for ages ,whats changed ,are we comunists now does everyone have a right to a good gpu now or are we capitalists that pay for what we get.
@FordGT90Concept
I hope you're raging just as hard at company's who waste epic energy resources yearly but i doubt it , shit my company indivualy packs screws ,labels the bag then passes it me to rip open n shove into a tray foe fitting , also sends parts in epic amount of wrapping for one wire etc etc ad nauseum , feckin shit metal carcases from china in wood boxes that get burned when a firm down the road in blighty could have made them .

I suppose its ok for companys to make money and Waste.
Just not the likes of me.
I recycle yo , and I spent a lot of doe for EFFICIENT tools for the job.

 

[R-T-B]

Cryptocurrencies are power consumption and no amount of technological improvements are going to change that.

Ethereum, one of the more popular coins right now, uses that power for something though (smart contracts). I think your tune will change as soon as it becomes a global supercomputer which people contribute too, which isn't far off at all.

And power consumption impact is inflated. It's not like the grid is struggling to deliver it. It's no more a power consumer than say the "marry jane" farms that sprouted up in my native Washington's backyards everywhere. Now there's a power consumer for debatable cause.

Picture what kind of power generation facilities have to exist to run 1000+ graphics at 100% load 24/7. That's the price of cryptocurrencies.

OMG, mining might fund an investment in infrastructure? When well the madness end?

Before this mining craze, mining was only done in energy cheap hydro regions, my home being one of them. That's the norm I picture us returning too. Don't worry, your precious energy grid will remain dated.

 

[Vya Domus]

You think ASIC/GPU farms cool themselves? Who pulls out the failed cards. Who runs the trading sites? Who writes the platforms? It's still humans until the robot revolution.

I could get a job RIGHT NOW at a mining farm near me run on good clean cheap northwest hydro power. I just prefer journalism..

But that's essentially the same thing as working at any data center , how is it any different ? There are no "mining specific" jobs. That's what I meant. And let's be honest these mining farms account for little when you take the industry as whole.

From everything I have read, international monetary organizations are part of the beast:

Google would show some big names with:

"blockchain banking partnership"

Then it seems they already stepped in. In which case , how can you be so certain they'll let people making cash forever at whatever rate they want ? My main point is the uncertainty this brings with it.

Just to be clear I am not against any of this but it seems people are looking at it as if it is the holy grail of money making and they are hurting others along the way. We all know what happens to the economy when people think that way about something.

 

[Hood]

The Future S/H Market for Decent Graphics Cards WILL BE A MINEFIELD OF GLOBAL CRAP

Already almost every craigslist ad for used GPUs includes the obligatory "never used for mining" lie, and some are calling their cards "currently the most desirable GPU for ETH mining", and quoting current inflated prices so they can sell their old cards for more than they originally paid. This is getting ridiculous...

 

[R-T-B]

But that's essentially the same thing as working at any data center , how is it any different ? There are no "mining" specific jobs. That's what I meant. And let's be honest these mining farms account for little when you take the industry as whole.

I have a feeling you'd be surprised. But I will admit, it's not mining specific, except for the insanse heat output that is. Nearly all the jobs call for a strong degree/cert of some sort in thermal cooling systems.

Then it seems they already stepped in. In which case , how can you be so certain they'll let people making cash forever at whatever rate they want ? My main point is the uncertainty this brings with it.

Because that isn't allowed. Literally. Crypto has a fixed supply. As soon as society decides which one it's going to use as the "final coin" it's going to be that and only that. Math in the crypto does not allow issuance beyond a point. That's what banks love. Bitcoin, as an example, is already at 12.5 coins issued per block instead of the original 50. Output is already curbing and the algorithm IS working.

Just to be clear I am not against any of this but it seems people are looking at it as if it is the holy grail of money making and they are hurting other along the way. We all know what happens to the economy when people think that way about something.

As I said initially, greed is the problem, on both sides. We need to look at this rationally and come up with a realistic long term answer, not a "quick fix" or knee-jerk legislation. I want both sides to work together towards a solution, and not treat each other as enemies. That's really what hurts the most, knowing both sides and seeing the forum full of "camps" like this.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

And power consumption impact is inflated. It's not like the grid is struggling to deliver it. It's no more a power consumer than say the "marry jane" farms that sprouted up in my native Washington's backyards everywhere. Now there's a power consumer for debatable cause.

They at least soak up atmospheric carbon. That's a lot more than can be said for farms of metal, silicon, and plastic.

Don't worry, your precious energy grid will remain dated.

My "grid" is mostly wind powered. Frankly, I don't want anymore of those eye soars built. Increasing electrical demand because of cryptocurrencies doesn't further that goal.

 

[GLD]

The mining/miners pushing up the cost of cards does suck azz. I got lucky and bought my RX 580 on launch day. I am SO happy I did. it has gone up $70 since then, if you can even score one in stock. That is crap!

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

They at least soak up atmospheric carbon. That's a lot more than can be said for farms of metal, silicon, and plastic.


My "grid" is mostly wind powered. Frankly, I don't want anymore of those eye soars built. Increasing electrical demand because of cryptocurrencies doesn't further that goal.

Yes of course they soak up atmospheric carbon
And carbon credits were created soley to create a greener world

 

[R-T-B]

My "grid" is mostly wind powered. Frankly, I don't want anymore of those eye soars built. Increasing electrical demand because of cryptocurrencies doesn't further that goal.

As I pointed out, you really have little to worry about either way in the present energy climate. Especially not as soon as things get back off this temporary bullish trend.

 

[P4-630]

Looking at the prices of a few MSI Gaming X cards

MSI GTX1060 Gaming X wasn't that much affected in my country:

MSI GTX1070 Gaming X seems to be affected in my country, I bought it at EUR 519,- on the first day:

MSI RX480 no longer available in my country. This is the RX580 Gaming X, not much affected:

 

[FordGT90Concept]

As I pointed out, you really have little to worry about either way in the present energy climate. Especially not as soon as things get back off this temporary bullish trend.

This is the second time a cryptocurrency surge has occurred. It's going to happen again, and again, and again until legal activity stops it for good (if ever). There's no limitations on how many types of cryptocurrencies can exist. I'll just leave this here.

Looking at the prices of a few MSI Gaming X cards

MSI GTX1060 Gaming X wasn't that much affected in my country:

MSI GTX1070 Gaming X seems to be affected in my country, I bought it at EUR 519,- on the first day:

MSI RX480 no longer available in my country. This is the RX580 Gaming X, not much affected:

Fairly indicative that your country doesn't have many that are doing cryptocurrency mining. Here in USA, RX 580s are going for $460 to $538; it shouldn't sell for more than $280.

According to the article above, cryptocurrencies are pretty much worthless in countries that don't consider it a legitimate currency.

 

[R-T-B]

This is the second time a cryptocurrency surge has occurred. It's going to happen again, and again, and again until legal activity stops it for good (if ever).

I still fail to see how funding updates to our energy infrastructure can be a bad thing beyond to a select few individuals close to the plants, honestly. If anything, we've needed this for a long, long time.

Also, crypto types may be unlimited but market interest is not. There are only 1-4 crytocoins really valuable enough to be mentioned. The money invested in it, or market cap, is actually the chief indicator of value and eventually, only one coin will prevail. My bet is it won't be any of the existing ones, but something new and more productive entirely.

Anyhow, this debate is pretty much a moot point as such a ban would never happen in the capitalist west, for the most part.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

Greed for virtual money.

I think your word choice is just poor. Virtual currency is better and you can exchange one currency for another, Bitcoin is supposed to go up to $4,000 accord to Goldman&Sachs.

I never got into bitcoin because I thought it was a bit shady and was just a passing fad that would be worthless a few years down the line. Boy was I wrong. But it's too late to get into it now, too many people are doing it and it's just harder for the average joe to get anything worthwhile out of it.

It's not too late, it's still a growing thing, it's just not as easy to make a profit.

It is already a way better to go with higher end cards like GTX 1080 or 1080ti since they prices are not largely affected unlike cards like Rx480 or Gtx 1060. It is a great time to sell if you have those popular cards that is high from mining. This is a good "black market".

It seems like that we are left with going high end or entry mid level like a 1050ti for cards to be worth it price. Older gens nvidia can work great too.

Personally I don't think an 'upgrade' to anything less than a 1070 is worth it. I understand not everyone has money to throw around but if you can spare $500 a month then you need to improve your life situation and not be concerned about PC upgrades.

Strangely I consider GTX 1060 a joke, otherwise i would have bought it one year sooner. I accept nothing less than a GTX 1070 for 250$. Just like GTX 670 costed 400$ at launch and then got replaced by GTX 760 a hair slower at 250$ only year later. Now it is the time for GTX 1070 to step down from 400$ to 250$. So i say let them buy old cards as much as they want. It inflated as it is now anyways.

I have to agree with you, I won't even buy less than a 1080 at this point. To me a 1070 is a decent backup card in the event my good card dies or I need something temporary.

I rather have real cash than toy money.

You're ignorant, at this point and the way governments are becoming Bitcoin might actually be safer.

Toy money become real cash

Yes it does but people posting here are ignorant and uninformed. You can tell they clearly have no knowledge how any of it works.

Exactly. Bitcoin and such is best used as reliable money transport, not a currency (at least not yet).

That said, if you were offered 500 dollars, or 500 bitcoins, and took the dollars, oh boy are you some kind of fool...

There's a sucker born every minute

I'm currently mining with 11 GPU's I own and I reckon I would make more money on welfare...

I don't think you're on welfare if you have 11GPS haha. Welfare is actually a pretty sweet setup for those on it I'd say. I see them buying shopping carts full of steak and fish, while I have cheap chicken breast and hot dogs... I do have a pretty good paying career though and eventually I won't have to live so...responsibly.

GTX 1050 Ti are about the best gaming cards that haven't been hugely effected by cryptocurrencies yet.

Seems like most crypto currency miners are buying at the 4-6 TFLOP range.

I wish a court would rule crypto currencies are not legal tender so it costs 20 million of them to buy a pizza again. This stupidity would stop again.

1050s might as well be onboard video to me Also, what about Bitcoin? Each being worth 2-3000 USD right now are they not?

If you ask me, the governments of the world should be shutting this cryptocurrency stuff down because it's so easy to launder money through it. You can hide illicit and illegal transactions much easier since most cryptocurrency transactions are not tracked.

Laundering money is a lot easier than that. You can sell goods/products or services and all you do is pay a tax on it and you're likely to get by without questioning.

All money is virtual

Money is just a man made thing to simplify exchanges of one thing for another. It's supposed to be backed by gold but it's really not.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I still fail to see how funding updates to our energy infrastructure can be a bad thing beyond to a select few individuals close to the plants, honestly. If anything, we've needed this for a long, long time.

Proof? Just likes another greed-driven excuse to waste energy to me. Universities, businesses, and governments all over the world are purchasing their own GPGPU compute clusters. There's also many volunteer projects like BOINC that can utilize GPU compute resources and does have a very good track record of accomplishing scientific milestones from it. Etherium is spending a vast majority of its compute resources trying to make money from nothing.

Also, crypto types may be unlimited but market interest is not. There are only 1-4 crytocoins really valuable enough to be mentioned. The money invested in it, or market cap, is actually the chief indicator of value and eventually, only one coin will prevail. My bet is it won't be any of the existing ones, but something new and more productive entirely.

It already is Bitcoin because countries have approved it for trade.

Anyhow, this debate is pretty much a moot point as such a ban would never happen in the capitalist west, for the most part.

Taxing the hell out of it is likely, however, as politicians get more educated (the Ponzi schemes, the black market deals, the volatility of it, the wastefulness of it on physical resources, and so on).

 

[Th3pwn3r]

Oh and to correct the title of this thread. Mining is driving up prices on it's own. DEMAND IS DRIVING UP PRICES. The more cards sold and being used is really a good thing in my belief. It will force advancement in GPU even further than what we already have which is awesome.

 

[R-T-B]

Proof?

Do you really need proof that energy infrastructure will be improved if demand is there to deliver it? They are selling a product.

It already is Bitcoin because countries have approved it for trade.

Don't be so sure of that. Ethereum is the one set to overtake bitcoins market cap in"the Flippening" soon (months away is the last estimate I heard). Official endorsement means nothing in crypto-land. Actually, it might even hurt a currency. ZCash was trading ABOVE bitcoins value about 6 months or more back, and that was because it allowed untracable transactions and had signifigant investment from people concerned with anonymity.

I'm not sure about zcash personally, but it does go to show there is a substantial disconnect between government and crypto, and what government says is about as effective as trying to shutdown say, bittorrent.

Taxing the hell out of it is likely, however, as politicians get more educated (the Ponzi schemes, the black market deals, the volatility of it, the wastefulness of it on physical resources, and so on).

I massively disagree about "likely" but it is likely to get more regulated as time goes on, yes. Taxing the "hell out of it?" No. No one wants to kill this at this point, save for people upset they can't get graphics cards.

I am not saying that's not a problem, I'm saying don't kill an entire industry in your solution. There are other ways that needn't be so terminally irreversibly damaging.

the Ponzi schemes, the black market deals, the volatility of it, the wastefulness of it on physical resources, and so on

The only point you might have is it's "wastefulness of it physical resources" (personally, I think running a payment network is not wasteful, and really question whether it is that much more taxing vs what we did with these in the first place), the others are universal criminal activities that occur on all currencies, and are decidedly in the minority, especially since the shutdown of the silk road.

Oh and to correct the title of this thread. Mining is driving up prices on it's own. DEMAND IS DRIVING UP PRICES. The more cards sold and being used is really a good thing in my belief. It will force advancement in GPU even further than what we already have which is awesome.

That's a point as well. If they made a really awesome compute-only card as a result of this at a mainstreamist price point, well, supercomputers and miners everywhere would ALL benefit.

People think the space race is a "massive waste of resources" as well. People in general are short-sighted. There are genuine returns from both these things that just because they cannot see them, they assume aren't there.